Jeremy Corbyn

Is it raining hard up North?

Need I go on

No but some fact checking would be useful

The delusion by several posters on this thread that mainstream politics is in any way 'centrist', is irrefutable proof of that.

Are you being serious?

But far more importantly; the rise in the the popularity of hard right parties such as UKIP (which ironically was formed by a former Liberal Eurosceptic but attracted hard-right tories and other assorted racists), and the rise of far-right fascist extremism in the UK and Europe, highlights the need for a genuinely left-wing party to be able to counter the dominance of right-wing politics, and get people to re-engage with the political process.

Two wrongs don't make a right. Which is why we DO have centrist politics in the UK. QED.

Right-wing politics is all about divide and rule, and is ultimately undemocratic, as is extreme left-wing political ideology.

Elements of truth at last

And the inevitable reality is, that as a declining economic force, the UK will need to rely on 'socialist' systems of social organisation

Socialism is required for a declining economic force???? That sounds like a great vote winner. Line up, line up...

Extreme left is extreme. Centre left is actually electable.

What about just left? Who decides what is extreme? The Sun? The Daily Mail? Tony Blair? Theresa May? Andrew Neil? Laura Kuensberg? Nick Robinson?

Sorry that's too many question marks 🙂

Voters?

I know, I know, they don't matter. But it used to work as an idea...

Dragon +1

Voters?

Be honest, do you really actually believe that?

EDIT: Actually in a properly functioning democracy, I"d agree, so I guess the real question is do you believe that's what we have?

Extreme left is extreme

There is nothing that falls remotely close to the term 'extreme left' in the UK, bar one or two very tiny groups (supporters in the low hundreds or even tens). Labour is traditionally a reasonably centrist left-wing party, and recently, a moderate right-wing party. Jeremy Corbyn is moderate centre left. I think you're getting all confused by Binners' nonsense about Stalinism and North Korea; he's only saying such idiot things for effect, he doesn't' actually believe them. 😆

"Clodhopper not sure all of my post would go down well with JC -"

Hmm. If taxation was applied fairly and effectively, there'd be no need for many forms of social welfare, such as tax credits. I think JC would go along with that.

"Are you being serious?"

I am, but you're obviously not, judging by your posts. 😉

"Elements of truth at last"

About tory politics being all about divide and rule? I'm glad you agree. It would be stupid not to, really. 🙂

Dazh I don't agree with you social mobility views or the no chance of buying a home if your under 30 unless your parents are minted.

There are new 2 bed houses 7 miles from me that are available for 117k a first time buyers needs a 5% deposit and the government will give a 20% equity loan leaving a sub 90k mortgage. That is virtually identical ratios to my first house in 1986 (except I needed 10% deposit) plenty of young Polish families buying them..... just depends how badly you want it oops been here before

No.. As I have said before this RW, LW stuff is bllx used by people who cant move on and who remain stuck in the politics of the last century.

It is amusing though. Like watching a Tyronosaurus versus a Stegosaurus!! I am waiting for talk of nationalising the commanding heights and prices and incomes policies next.

Meanwhile in the real world....

Correct clod. This whole issue is only noteworthy for its amusement factor. It has been a pantomime from the start before the Autumn reality TV schedule comes back. It is bloody funny though, except for the lack of a proper functioning HM Opposition. That is important but oddly forgotten about.

behind you.....

"Meanwhile in the real world...."

Do you actually know where that is? I see little evidence, on here, that you do.

Il looks like they might have been on to Binners:

[IMG] [/IMG]

There are new 2 bed houses 7 miles from me

Where's that then?

On social mobility, I can only judge it from my own experience. I went to uni in '93, got a full grant first year, half a grant second year nothing 3rd year, and left with 4.5k of student loans, but crucially didn't have to pay any fees. If I was a 17 year old considering my options now, higher education wouldn't be one of them.

If I was a 17 year old considering my options now, higher education wouldn't be one of them.

Which might well be the correct choice. That depends. My old man couldnt afford to go but it didnt stop him in life. He only went when he retired and then got a PHD!

At least now we have a system that allows: people to make informed decisions on whether it is a worthwhile choice or not; stops those who chose not to go/cant go from subsidising those who chose to/can go (tax on the poor); and might in time lead to top universities having a better chance of competing globally.

At least now we have a system that allows: people to make informed decisions on whether it is a worthwhile choice or not; stops those who chose not to go/cant go from subsidising those who chose to/can go (tax on the poor); and might in time lead to top universities having a better chance of competing globally.

Would it not be simpler to just tax the rich more not justvthose that get into uni whichvare not always the same? Top uni's do well globally dont they. If not why not get the tax payer to fund more if its important?

"At least now we have a system that allows: people to make informed decisions on whether it is a worthwhile choice or not; stops those who chose not to go/cant go from subsidising those who chose to/can go (tax on the poor); and might in time lead to top universities having a better chance of competing globally."

No we don't; we have a system that increasingly favours people who can afford it. Informed choices? You mean, people needing to consider the future economic 'value' of an educational course, rather than the education itself. Meaning we'll get less people studying things like arts and literature, and more people wanting to do business degrees (oh, look at how easy it is to get on an MBA course these days, if you have the money...). This will lead to certain faculties shutting down, as the private companies that will inevitably take over the running of universities if we continue with right-wing governments, decide they are 'uneconomical' (see also health care in the same framework). So we'll end up with far less diversity of education, which can only be a bad thing. As in politics, we need a healthy balance of different forms of skills, talent and knowledge, to complement a healthy democracy.

And as for universities 'competing globally'; our education system should be run for the benefit of society, not as a business.

stops those who chose not to go/cant go from subsidising those who chose to/can go (tax on the poor)

Tax on the poor? Really? By any measure education is an investment, one that both the public and private sector are completely dependent on. If it's a tax on the poor, why stop at higher education? Maybe we could exempt poor kids from education altogether and send them back down the mines and up chimneys?

binners - Member

Yourself and the Croydon Communist are certainly doing your bit to promote and highlight the more intelligent, and civilised, level of debate within the Corbynista ranks Clodhopper.

i can't see why anyone wouldn't be attracted to this gentler, kinder ethos you both so eloquently espouse

Well I am certainly prepared to engage in a "more intelligent, and civilised level of debate" binners. It's a shame that you are very clearly completely unable to do so.

Since this thread first started you have gone from enthusiastically supporting Corbyn to enthusiastically denouncing him.

The only thing which you been completely consistent with is that you always go out of your way to insult everyone who dares to disagree with you.

I can never be quite sure what your position will be, however I am always 100% certain that you will insult those who disagree with your preferred flavour of the month in the strongest way you possibly can.

Here are some examples :

binners - Member

But it does amuse me the labour cheerleading from Polly Toynbee and her ilk, sending us the view of what british politics looks like from Tuscany. Or from their 3 million quid Islington pads. It's apt really, as they're as clueless as the Labour Party for much the same reason.

It's no wonder they've come out against Corbyn. He's as terrifying and alien to them as someone northern, working class, or scottish. They like to stay in their nice, comfortable, upper middl class, bollocks-talking, London-centric metropolitan bubble, just like the Labour Party

binners - Member

If there's a leadership election tomorrow, these muppets will re-elect Corbyn. And they'll be really pleased with themselves. Because they're awful middle class lefties, who will stand by and moan about equal rights for one-armed, free range, organic hermaphrodite marriage, while the Tory party take a torch to workers rights
They are the very worst human beings on the planet

binners - Member

I've never heard such sanctimonious, superior, patronising drivel in my life

Along with describing me as one of very worst human beings on the planet you have compared me with the Taleban. You call me a whole range of what you obviously consider to be insults, the latest being the Croydon Communist - "3 quid" Trot now appears to have been exhausted. For the time being anyway.

Now I don't mind your personal insults, in fact I find it rather reassuring that you should feel the need to resort to them.

But I find it quite frankly fascinating how you can seamlessly throw insults with apparent gay abandon and talk about a [i]"more intelligent and civilised level of debate"[/i] in the same paragraph.

I'm sure that the irony of it all goes straight over your head. This is what happens when people submerge themselves in self-adsorbed rants - they don't stop to think about what they are actually saying.

Anyway, carry on...... 🙂

EDIT : Don't forget to post the "U OK Hun?" retort. Maybe a picture from a Monty Python film too

Darlington area multiple new housing estates- www.keepmoat.com prices from 78k

Big thanks to oldmanmtb, dash, and clodhopper for their answers to my earlier question.

FWIW, I agree.

teamhurtmore - Member

Looking forward to when folk pretend the SNP are left wing next....

Poor wee Hurtmore,in all this hubbub about the implosion of the Labour party people are forgetting how nasty the SNP are.

Darlington

Not exactly a surprise, but I would suggest that places like that are few and far between and not much help to the under 30s hoping to get a job in places where they actually exist. With all due respect to Darlington, if you have to move there to have a hope of buying a house then I wouldn't exactly call that social mobility.

Universities are effectively private and can shut whatever they want (and do). But they also receive vast amounts of government money. The problem is Labour wanted 50% of people to go to Uni and that costs, a lot. The number of students has roughly doubled or more since 1993 dahz.

If you don't have an undergraduate degree now then in many cases you'll struggle to get a decent job.

I see Dazh Darlington not good enough for the new left? You want to be able to buy a 78k house in Islington?

Actually there are plenty of good jobs in the area for under 30s (Aldi UK HQ Cummins Zyro EE etc)also good schools and outstanding MTB within a few miles (Hamsterley Swaledale north york moors) but hey if it's not good enough for the utopian dream

I've just come back from Sri Lanka, a country decades behind the UK in terms of infrastructure and economic development, but I could get a 3g signal everywhere, but I can't in Hebden Bridge, a town halfway between the two biggest cities in the north of England. Energy privatisation has resulted in fuel poverty where people have to decide between buying food and heating their homes.

The problem is that although the "sri lanka is cheaper and better" observation might be true that doesn't actually tell us anything about privatisation in the UK.

Taking the specific example of mobile phone coverage, the main reasons coverage until recently has been poor in the UK are two fold:

1. The Labour Government decided to extract around £23B in license costs for 3G - this had the exact effect of constraining rollout / capital spend on the networks that everyone said it would do

2. 3G coverage in the UK was licensed by the Government in the 2100MHz band which requires a lot more masts and is harder to get good in-building coverage with. One of the reasons lower / better wavelengths could not be used is they were already licensed for military, civil protection and TV use.

On a different KPI, we continue to enjoy some of the most competitive pricing for telecoms and utilities anywhere in Europe - the latter retail price is distorted by carbon tariffs, renewable feed in costs and such like but the fact remains that the "privatised" industries aren't always expensive or bad solely because they are accountable to shareholders.

If you don't have an undergraduate degree now then in many cases you'll struggle to get a decent job.

Hence my point. Having a decent job now requires either rich parents to fund their offspring through higher university, or the acquiring of massive amounts of debt.

You want to be able to buy a 78k house in Islington?

Not at all, but I'd suggest that the number of jobs in Darlington is insignificant compared to London, Manchester, Leeds, Birmingham, Bristol, Liverpool etc, where you haven't a hope of a 78k house that's worth buying.

Not really as you pay it back once you are earning over a certain threshold.

Ultimately though it is now an international playing field, so you don't have a degree then companies will look at someone who does from elsewhere.

On a different KPI, we continue to enjoy some of the most competitive pricing for telecoms and utilities anywhere in Europe - the latter retail price is distorted by carbon tariffs, renewable feed in costs and such like but the fact remains that the "privatised" industries aren't always expensive or bad solely because they are accountable to shareholders.

Not true, when compared to [u]wholesale[/u] cost we still pay more per unit than anyone in Europe.

Poor wee Hurtmore,in all this hubbub about the implosion of the Labour party people are forgetting how nasty the SNP are.

Hello duckie, how nice to hear from you. Misquoting again I see. Plus ca change.

Would it not be simpler to just tax the rich more

Of course AA, just tax people more. That's the spirit.

Tax on the poor? Really?

Yes of course. Everyone, including less well off people, paid for relatively well off kids to go to Uni. A regressive system that benefited the middle classes more than anyone else. Very kind of the less well off to invest in the future of the more well off.

The sitting Tory is your full on Hang 'em and flog 'em, rabidly anti-EU right wing nut job, who seems to be increasingly pissing off even the Tories, he's that insane

you clearly like him more than I do, I fail to see his redeeming features at all

You call me a whole range of what you obviously consider to be insults, the latest being the Croydon Communist -

you should wear your new badge with pride, as they say, if the cap fits, wear it

Not exactly a surprise, but I would suggest that places like that are few and far between and not much help to the under 30s hoping to get a job in places where they actually exist. With all due respect to Darlington, if you have to move there to have a hope of buying a house then I wouldn't exactly call that social mobility.

or you could live in Bury North, or Stretford, or many other areas catch the Metrolink and work and socialise in the centre of Manchester, or is that still slumming it? not aspirational enough?

A regressive system that benefited the middle classes more than anyone else. Very kind of the less well off to invest in the future of the more well off.

So you'll no doubt support a grant system for the less well off as I received back in the day. I'm really not sure what planet you lot live on where you think working class kids are going to take on 40k worth of debt to get a degree, especially as now there's now guarantee of a job at the end of it. The middle classes will pay whatever it requires to get their kids through higher education, as long as they have the money, so the end result is a reduction in working class kids going to university.

So you'll no doubt support a grant system for the less well off as I received back in the day. I'm really not sure what planet you lot live on where you think working class kids are going to take on 40k worth of debt to get a degree, especially as now there's now guarantee of a job at the end of it. The middle classes will pay whatever it requires to get their kids through higher education, as long as they have the money, so the end result is a reduction in working class kids going to university.

but it's not debt is it? you can't pay it off cash if you are wealthy enough, it's a surrogate to create a tax system that only kicks in when you earn a certain amount and the more you earn the more you pay. The net impact is highest on the highest future earners. Do a low paid job such as a teacher in a nursery context and you are likely not to pay a penny to the tuition fees for your degree

Not at all, but I'd suggest that the number of jobs in Darlington is insignificant compared to London, Manchester, Leeds, Birmingham, Bristol, Liverpool etc, where you haven't a hope of a 78k house that's worth buying.

Sounds like a perfect reason for businesses to relocate there really... think how much less you can pay your staff if they can buy a house for half a groat and they've got nobody else to work for.

it's not debt is it? you can't pay it off cash if you are wealthy enough, it's a surrogate to create a tax system that only kicks in when you earn a certain amount and the more you earn the more you pay. The net impact is highest on the highest future earners. Do a low paid job such as a teacher in a nursery context and you are likely not to pay a penny to the tuition fees for your degree

It wasn't a quote THM, it was a comment on your post. Still "fabricating" what you have previously posted? Plus ca change!

You are correct duckie. It wasn't a quote. You made up something up instead ie, that the SNP were "nasty". 0/10 trolling, but plus ca change. Poor wee duckie. It's some complex you appear to have. I hope it gets better in time. Best of [s]British[/s] sorry, Scottish to you.

We do appreciate, however, just how proud you all must be regarding lower income access to higher education in Scotland. Another great example of the gap between rhetoric and reality. Plus ca change there too. But at least it's not as bad as it was, always a silver lining eh?

Suggesting that anybody has a complex while spending the whole Indy thread making up names for anything remotely linked to tha mats side is quite amusing, and was my basis for pointing out your continued inability to avoid bringing them into any political thread. Oh and not being an SNP voter, I am not proud of the way they haven't addressed the inequality gap for higher education places, good idea poorly implemented. I am proud of the way they opposed the benefits cuts though. Something that Labour shamed themselves by not doing.

Come on Ernie. You love it!

I did you a nice pickchoor and everyfink 🙂

[img] [/img]

Well done, the ability to partially backtrack is part of the long road to recovery and almost factual ^. Keep it up.

But at least we agree on the state of education inequality in Scotland. Odd, that it was a flag hosted high during the indi vote, but that was all about making things up after all. Still as many have argued, Labour should (perhaps) take a leaf out of the SNP book.

The SNP are pragmatists after all and the ends (power, independence) justify whatever means (lying, deceipt, adopting RW polices where necessary and then combining them with incompatible LW ones etc). And they understand that the masses a unable or unwilling to scrutinise what they say. They are the masters of spin. So to square the circle, the main argument from north of the wall is to return to the ways of the Bliar.

Sorted.....I never realised it was that easy and there was dear Nicola showing Labour just how to do it. wake up you red Sassenachs. Power is there, if you can be bothered to reach out and grab it. Alternatively, carry on as you are.....

...anyone fancy returning to the High Court?!?

*applause for Binners*

Indeed bravo binners. But I get the feeling that you might not be taking this issue seriously enough...it's no laughing matter....or is it???

Just a thought on labour being irrelevant in Scotland, they shouldn't be right now. Scotland had been in recession for nearly a year, Corbyn and his mates should be up here all the time hammering home the message that SNP are failing and that they can change it for the better. Instead virtually nothing, it is the Tories who now lead the attack on SNP policies and spin.

Dragon, you are aware that it was the meddling of UK Labour that screwed the Scottish party right? Why would they want to come up here?

FWIW I know a few folk that like him, dunno about threat to independence but hes certainly more popular than anyone else in Westminster.

binners - Member

Come on Ernie. You love it!

Posted 5 hours ago

No shit sherlock.

How can you tell.........did you find a little clue in my previous post ?

ernie_lynch - Member

Now I don't mind your personal insults, in fact I find it rather reassuring that you should feel the need to resort to them.

Posted 18 hours ago

You're a right proper sleuth, aintcha 😆

BTW how times are you going to post the same hilarious joke ?.......just wondering like as I might have to start doing stretch exercises for my sides.

Drogon - they tried that but have so little credibility and the SNP have proved to be competent so it didn't work. The constant cry of "SNP bad" from labour has been a large part of their downfall. Google " bain principle" to find out why.

At the GE the SNP propaganda was all " we have done this, We will do this" and didn't mention another party at all. the labour propaganda mentioned the SNP more than the labour policies. It was all - " the SNP stole my sweeties"

What seems to be happening is positive campaigning works better than negative campaigning here. Truthfullness and credibilty works better than smearing your opponents. Hence the rise of the tories - Ruthie tank commander appears positve and credible so reaps the rewards

Any westminster party would kill for the level of voting and approval that the SNP gets - and the media is overwhelmingly hostile to the SNP

The Labour Government decided to extract around £23B in license costs for 3G

It was an auction, nobody [i]had[/i] to pay that much.

tjagain - Member
...What seems to be happening is positive campaigning works better than negative campaigning here. Truthfullness and credibilty works better than smearing your opponents. Hence the rise of the tories - Ruthie tank commander appears positve and credible so reaps the rewards...

Agree.

What critics of the SNP forget is that attacking them on detail of policy or implementation isn't going to work as long as they are reasonably upfront with what they're doing.

It is a party with a cause, and they will be supported almost regardless because independence is the most important issue to most of its voters. Other stuff will be forgiven so long as they are seen to be pursuing that.

Negative spin against them just seems to swell the ranks because it is usually couched in terms that are seen by many in the electorate as anti-Scottish.