http://foundation4peace.org/our-projects/

I get your point, but I'm picking up a definite change of mood out there - Corbyn's stuff is starting to land with people, I think.

thing is, corbyn doesn't have to win. nobody expects him to, not even corbyn I reckon.

May does though. she's pitched it all on a 'back me, you can trust on me' campaign, and its turns out people don't...

and have you noticed the increase of jamba/ninfan/chewkw attacks on corbyn? three weeks ago they were cock-a-hoop about a 150 seat majority. I think they are actually worried that May is really going to **** this up.

I bet Boris is plotting already.

Anyone think it was unreasonable to negotiate with Sinn Fein?

Never unreasonable to negotiate about negotiations - but it was right to withhold both sides a seat at the table until they abandoned violence and committed to the ceasefire. Was it right to demand a significant gesture of decommissioning before talks, or agree to a dual track basis? I'm still undecided, my heart says decommissioning first, but my head says compromise.

The key principle however remains that the ceasefire had to be in place for those negotiations to take place - the British and Irish government rightly held that to the Mitchell principles, the IRA/SF and other parties had to commit to a ceasefire and the peaceful settlement of the dispute, to either the armalite OR the ballot box, rather than continuing both at the same time.

Thats were Corbyn was wrong, the public political platform he gave the IRA [u]while[/u] they were still committed to violence as a solution was wrong, and undermined the chances of peace rather than enhanced them.

Perhaps he thought that by engaging them in the political process he could influence them to give up the armed resistance bit ....you know just like all the others* who "negotiated" with them whilst they were still engaged in armed struggle

Essentially he did what they did talked to them to bring about a peace process ; there was no other solution at all and he just saw it/interacted with them sooner than most, openly, and publicly.

* crosses all parties and goes all the way to the PM

PS I like your well reasoned cogent points. Sadly they are rare

you know just like all the others* who "negotiated" with them whilst they were still engaged in armed struggle

Doesn't that undermine Corbyn's justification for his own involvement though?

If, behind the scenes 'negotiations about negotiations' were taking place, then surely Corbyn's involvement was nothing more than public grandstanding!

Well I enjoyed that. Corbyn kept his cool better than I would have, and came across as affable, knowledgeable and earnest. I'm biased though, and having read this thread I may have found the "IRA IRA IRA IRA IRA" section more hectoring than a casual watcher. Would've been nice if he'd just admitted he thinks trident is a bag of **** though, and perhaps said "listen" less.

The whole corbyn badgering about the IRA is an embarrassment to "political discussion". (As is Andrew Neil, in general.)

The whole corbyn badgering about the IRA is an embarrassment to "political discussion".

I think that what McDonnell and Abbott said was far more concerning, and that article posted above shows the 'more radical left' in their true light.

Why the obsession with what people said 30 years ago. Don't see the same level of scrutiny over the crap May has done within the last 5 years...

There can be no doubt that western intervention in Iraq and Libya has created the vacuum which brought about IS.
Western policy in the middle east has been appalling since WW1.
There is another side to the story though: I think the rise of Islamism (Turkey, ****stan, Indonesia etc)is really just popularism, very much what we've had in Britain & the US this last year; just identity being expressed through religion rather than nationalism.

Doesn't that undermine Corbyn's justification for his own involvement though?

I've yet to see any evidence Corbyn had any involvement whatsoever. Or MacDonnell. They certainly get no mention in Blair's book or Mo Mowlam's book and google turns up nothing.

Seems to me they needed to explain why they'd been telling a load of terrorists what a great idea terrorism was and came up with the idea that they'd claim it was all part of the peace process.

They were never trusted with even the most junior of ministerial roles, yet something as important and dear to Blair's heart as the peace process and all of a sudden he picked up the phone to them.

I accept it's the Argument from Silence fallacy but I'd have thought some documentation of some kind would be available to verify their story. Blair could confirm it, surely?

Don't see the same level of scrutiny over the crap May has done within the last 5 years...

You reckon? This election *is* scrutiny. She needs a big enough majority to deal with some nightmare issues. The polls are making that look unlikely. How much more scrutiny do you want?

Doesn't that undermine Corbyn's justification for his own involvement though?

He's only had to "justify" it in the first place because of the witch-hunts and smear campaigns about it in the Right Wing press - I doubt there'd have been a squeak out of him otherwise...

Enjoying Ninfan debating rather than trolling. Just wished it happened more often as he's good at it and adds to the forum.

thing is, corbyn doesn't have to win. nobody expects him to, not even corbyn I reckon.

Yep, agreed. But stuffing up May's "Hard Brexit Mandate by election Majority" agenda - which is looking hugely likely - will be nearly as good.

And we only need the Tories to drop one more major bollock between now and the election (and I have every confidence in their ability to do so) and things could end up [i]very, very[/i] close...

and undermined the chances of peace rather than enhanced them.

I really don't think history supports that view at all.

I've said it somewhere else - if I was a betting man I'd put a tenner on May not being the next PM

(very left wing) Blog claims Corbyn spoke to both sides & was Mo Mowlams envoy

https://skwawkbox.org/2017/05/25/world-exclusive-corbyn-mowlams-envoy-to-ira-and-loyalists/

regardless negotiations could only have taken place where trust already existed,
also mustve taken balls to go be an MP and go and talk to the IRA at that time

Corbyn also apparently travelled to Nicaragua to work with the Sadninistas against the Contras, (acording to this months issue of British Archaeology)

If, behind the scenes 'negotiations about negotiations' were taking place, then surely Corbyn's involvement was nothing more than public grandstanding!

Corbyn's constituency at the time had/has a significant Irish contingent, and it was talking to them and hearing their concerns about The Troubles that pulled him into the wider conversation - and in doing so he was acting on behalf of his constituents.

Which is what an MP is supposed to do.

But "public grandstanding"? Was there any? Again, he's only started to talk about it since the right has started to harangue him about it and his supposed IRA sympathies/apologism.

That was an awful interview from Neil's side. Dreadful negative questioning, hanging on words from years gone by about what so and so said.

Corbyn has a genuine conviction for a better country and they are at least willing to have a game plan.

I will happily pay my 26% Corp tax if these policies came into being.

You reckon? This election *is* scrutiny

I was talking about scrutiny from the media (but you knew that). I don't see the election as scrutiny of what May has done at all.

May's "Hard Brexit Mandate by election Majority" agenda

I thought the whole point of this election (amongst other things) was to get a few more europhile Tory MPs in and a workable majority so she can stick the finger up to her hardline eurosceptics and do a cash for access deal.

If she wanted a hard brexit she could do that with her existing miniscule majority.

ninfan - Member

I think that what McDonnell and Abbott said was far more concerning, and that article posted above shows the 'more radical left' in their true light.

Mo Mowlams envoy

Evidence?

I thought the whole point of this election was to get a few more europhile Tory MPs in and a workable majority so she can stick the finger up to her hardline eurosceptics and do a cash for access deal.

yeah thats what I kind think May the 'pragmatic remainer' is aiming for

but then she has the slightly batshit rightwing stuff like Grammar Schools and Fox Hunting
and then you wonder.....?

either way shes certainly not admitting that

Evidence?

a bloke on a blog says........

If she wanted a hard brexit she could do that with her existing majority.

Fair point, but it's a pretty nuanced affair.

Quite a few commentators have argued that she's gone to the polls in the hope that she'll get a hefty majority this time round, then she'll be able say "[i]but it's what you voted (us back in) for...[/i]" if/when the Brexit excrement hits the air-conditioning.

Corbyn has always been an outsider in particular within the Labour Party. It's absolutely laughable anyone would think his involvement in anything at all would have made much difference let alone a complex area like the Troubles. Corbyn can't lead the Labour Party despite being the elected leader, its ridiculos to suggest he could have made any difference to the pursuit of peace. Corbyn, McDonnell and Abbot where just playing poltics with Northen Ireland.

Daz the polls are meaningless, we are looking at a 75-100 seat Tory majority and possibly very much worse for Labour.

Quite a few commentators have argued that she's gone to the polls in the hope that she'll get a hefty majority this time round, then she'll be able say "but it's what you voted (us back in) for..." if/when the Brexit excrement hits the air-conditioning.

Maybe, but, as above,the alternative view (and I am on record as s being my prediction) that she went for strong 'hard brexit' comments and called the election to strengthen her majority and kill UKIP, precisely in order to then go back and make big concessions in the negotiations, leading to a much, much softer Brexit and retention of the single market without a small number of loons in the party ranks holding power.

It's absolutely laughable anyone would think his involvement in anything at all would have made much difference let alone a complex area like the Troubles

So once again, this reinforces the view that his 'justification' for meeting with Adams etc. was bobbins and he was simply grandstanding.

It's absolutely laughable anyone would think his involvement in anything at all would have made much difference let alone a complex area like the Troubles.

so wait

either he was in bed with the IRA or had nothing to do with them??

make up your mind!

as for polls..........

Im sure May will win her majority will probably be healthy, but its nice to see the rightwingers getting twitchy 😉

you know that gove, johnson, etc are sharpening their knives just in case...

possibly correct but the only think i am certain of is that she did no want to face the electorate post brexit

Given how much she has made of immigration and her failure as the Home secretary how do you think she will achieve the reduction in immigration with that approach?

Free movement is a line in the sand for the EU be it in ETA or just free access. I very much doubt they will barter it away for a fee and I very much doubt we will pay to keep the foreigners out....actually she might mightn't she

much softer Brexit and retention of the single market without a small number of loons in the party ranks holding power.

Davis' comments that we wont be losing the EMA, EU patent office & EIB would back that up as we'd have to stay under jurisdiction of the ECJ & be in the single market

would seem to back that up, The trouble is that Weak & Wobbly Lady U-turn could flip flop at any second

Given how much she has made of immigration and her failure as the Home secretary how do you think she will achieve the reduction in immigration with that approach?

Is that why she made it a wishy washy pledge?

the IFS reckons getting immigration numbers that low would cost 6bn?

but then she has the slightly batshit rightwing stuff like Grammar Schools and Fox Hunting
and then you wonder.....?

Grammar schools to pull back the 'kippers
Hunting for two reasons - very strong issue in the south west (lib dem marginals) plus this fantastic discussion:

https://mobile.twitter.com/TristanCorkPost/status/863106419415019522

Free movement is a line in the sand for the EU be it in ETA or just free access. I very much doubt they will barter it away for a fee and I very much doubt we will pay to keep the foreigners out....actually she might mightn't she

Agreed, but the thought is that she can't 'sell out' on EU immigration in return for free trade with the current group of vocal opposition and UKIP sitting on the sidelines saying 'she betrayed us all' into the next election in 2020 - by pushing that back till a couple of years after Brexit has settled, and we've retained free trade, the party is safe from ukip

Hunting for two reasons - very strong issue in the south west (lib dem marginals) plus this fantastic discussion:

https://mobile.twitter.com/TristanCorkPost/status/863106419415019522

That does seem to explain a seemingly incomprehensible decision.

That does seem to explain a seemingly incomprehensible decision.

Mays voting history has always been pro-hunting?, according to they work for you

could be tactical too though, how many votes would it actually win though? surely itd alienate as many as please, it is so unpopular according to polls

As the bloke says, It's not about hunting, it's about campaigning

blimey, even the spectator are rejecting Maybot, and even (faint) praise for the Corbynator

or are they trying a bit of reverse psych?

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/05/this-is-the-worst-tory-election-campaign-ever/

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/05/theresa-may-blow-general-election/

See. I told you they should have picked either Rees-Mogg or Ruth Davidson for leader

Just stirring the potentially complacent Tory voters to turn out come June 8th 🙂

This thread needs a gif.

[img] [/img]

🙂

Ill give you Davidson but Rees-Mogg???

the thought is that she can't 'sell out' on EU immigration in return for free trade with the current group of vocal opposition and UKIP sitting on the sidelines saying 'she betrayed us all' into the next election in 2020 - by pushing that back till a couple of years after Brexit has settled, and we've retained free trade, the party is safe from ukip

"I think that it is important that we do say and continue to say that we do want to bring migration to sustainable levels. We believe that is the tens of thousands."
She added: "Once we leave the EU, we will of course have the opportunity to ensure we have control of our borders. We will be able to establish our rules for people coming from the EU. That is a part of the picture we have not been able to control before."

CaptainFlashheart - Member

This thread needs a gif.

That's so good so funny I nearly fell off my chair laughing ... 😆

Make my day that gif.

😆 😆 😆

edit: I am going to learn to dance like that from now on ... 😆

corbyn may be sexy, but may is scary

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

How about a picture instead?
🙂
[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

kimbers - Member

Not sure who that is ...

That is like comedy nobody is laughing. 🙄

You really need to make something funny even against someone you don't like.

You just need to be funny as I don't care who you portray but they better be funny.

The 3 blokes dancing is the best so far ...

How on earth do they do that ... (now trying to dance like them in front of mirror but I think my stomach is getting in the way ...) 😆

allthepies - Member

No, that's too trying so not that good.

Too creepy for me that. 😮

Rusty Spanner - Member
How about a picture instead?

Forget it ... that's the bloke from telly politic show.

(chewk there are no fun gifs of Maybot, shes just too unlampoonable)

Ex-MI5 bosses think corbs got a point

[img] https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DAvKkMxXcAAdJ2N.jp g" target="_blank">https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DAvKkMxXcAAdJ2N.jp g"/> [/img]

and fallon digging himself in a hole

https://www.channel4.com/news/fallon-no-correlation-between-foreign-policy-and-this-appalling-act-of-terrorism

kimbers - Member
(chewk there are no fun gifs of Maybot, shes just too unlampoonable

Ex-MI5 bosses think corbs got a point

kimbers - Member
and fallon digging himself in a hole
> https://www.channel4.com/news/fallon-no-correlation-between-foreign-policy-and-this-appalling-act-of-terrorism

I see you have referenced my favourite troll news Channel 4 ... 😆

Channel 4 is amongst the most sophisticated troll news Channel available, very sensationalise and very dramatic ... it's like watching soap. 😆

Although I like PM May and will vote for her

You really need to pay more attention.

No one is blaming anyone.

They are saying foreign policy is a contributory factor.

Given that the intelligence services and both main political parties seem to agree on the matter, I'd be interested in what respect people disagree with them.

if chewk says its a troll........

the use of the boris quote was amusing and the interviewer did a decent job of just repeating what corbyn said rather than accepting what the tories try to claim it means

Fallon is insufferable

Very enjoyable watching him squirm

kimbers - Member
if chewk says its a troll........

I am referring to Channel 4 news channel ...

Im aware

It was amusing watching fallon tie himself in knots, at the same time deeply depressing

he was just brazenly fibbing about what corbyn had actually said, not even vaguely ashamed when his bullshit was called

kimbers - Member

I am referring to Channel 4 news channel ...

It was amusing watching fallon tie himself in knots, at the same time deeply depressing

What words did they twist?

fallon twisted his own words there

His problems were 2fold

lieing about what corbs actually said

and trying to deny what is a pretty sound argument (that our wars in the middle east have had an effect om domestic terrorists)

😯

I almost thought you had a point to make there chewkw

More fool me

Rusty Spanner - Member
No one is blaming anyone.

It's not even like it's hidden or a conspiracy theory, the bullshit is there to see if you want to notice it. It's all done fairly openly.

Terrorism is just blowback on the general philosophy, imo.

So the solution, either we change and let the world diversify at it's own pace, or we hunker down continue as is in pursuit of some dollars/resources/or whatever and slowly turn more authoritarianism at home, over a long period(you better believe the "terrorists" view this as a multi generational war), the cheer leaders of that are very clear to see on this thread(I'm pretty certain, there's some members on here that get a wee chubby every time they see an armed police. Personally, my heart sinks.).

In short, people need to learn to share the planet, not dominate it and keep everything for themselves. No-one wants to recognise the fact that there are many legitimate grievances out there. Now before anyone jumps on that, that's is not an endorsement of any terrorist act, I condemn them, all. Just an acceptance of a sad reality.

I think the sad thing about this is there a polarisation going on, on many many levels in the world, it's not going to end well, technology will be an even greater leveller as the years pass..

It's a shite state of affairs. 🙁

I almost thought you had a point to make there chewkw

More fool me

I'm not sure chewkw has ever had a point. I thought the best we'd come up with was that he served as a useful warning to the future about the perils of AI in forum software

Lifer - Member
I almost thought you had a point to make there chewkw
More fool me

zokes - Still not a customer
I'm not sure chewkw has ever had a point. I thought the best we'd come up with was that he served as a useful warning to the future about the perils of AI in forum software

@kimbers we know you are convinced but Corbyn's remarks won't sit well with marginal voters or those who left Labour for UKIP in the North.

@kimbers we know you are convinced but Corbyn's remarks won't sit well with marginal voters or those who left Labour for UKIP in the North.

dont dissagree

I imagine that the tories will be pushing the fallon method of putting words in his mouth pretty hard over the next few days

its one reason I still reckon May will win, unless she manages to bungle something else in the next couple of weeks

meanwhile at the G7.......

pondering where it all went so wrong?
[img] [/img]

the UK is in a bit of a bind really. shitbox little island so either needs to a) trade freely or b) impose imperial might by sending superior armed forces to take resources and create markets.

now the morons have made a) difficult with brexit all there is b).

historically b) has been the way forward, taking stuff from more primitive societies was hugely sucsessful (look at the built enviroment of any old buildings and infrastructure from before say 1950) and as such the need to be militaristic has become ingrained in the national identity. it doesn't really work anymore, as everyone else has a big enough stick to hurt.

saying the UK needs to act less like ****s overseas is not popular, but it is necessary

putting words in his mouth

Personally, I'd concentrate on those around him.

"Disband Mi5 and special police squads, disarm the police"

[img] [/img]

😆

Missed that page in the manifesto !

kimbers - Member
Missed that page in the manifesto !

Did you forget that we're only allowed to discuss previous views of the labour party, but never those of certain high-profile tories, e.g. brexit

And regardless of any of that BS ninfan et al., if May as Home Sec hadn't sacked 20,000 police officers, they wouldn't need 5,000 soldiers on the streets now. We can discuss the hypotheticals of past policy aspirations of some in the Labour Party if you want, but only if you apply the same lens to recent outcomes of policy that was put into place by the tory government.

Did you forget that we're only allowed to discuss previous views of the labour party, but never those of certain high-profile tories, e.g. brexit

Polls may be wrong (except when the 2-pt lead was being shouted about) but if you take a look at the headlines tories are in some sort of trouble. People are mostly immune to some of the stuff and it's almost easier to not bother looking at the times/telegraph/daily nazi as you know it's going to be the same crap over again. Their readership is falling, their influence in waining.

Todays example - Suicide Bomber may have used benefits to fund plot - Telegraph and the express is quoting temps in Fahrenheit as it keeps up the campain to return to the 50s

It's very important at these times not to look at any of the sensible policies in their manifesto in case you agree with any of them. It's best to keep dredging up the really old stuff and keep pinning that on him.

So true.

So many comments are based around sniping about Corbyn's history that you realise where the mindset of the Tory voter really is. Stuck bitterly in the past.

I think a lot them realise their party has pulled into a cul-de-sac and the only way out is to shout personal attacks at the people on the street.

@zokes in my view they are current views not previous, leopards and spots. Cosying up with terrorists and calling them friends is a typical lefty anti-establishment / anti-elite / anti-US stance. Ditto anti police / security services.