fifeandy - Member
best get a robot to do it then.

Exactly

If you can build, supply and service a robot to do that for £3.33 an hour do it, as you will make a fortune.

then Dave can get a more worthwhile job that also pays him £10 an hour.

Where from? We've just forced employers arms to streamline/automate - there's less jobs available, we can't just magic one up specially for Dave.

you are talking rubbish tho

the minimum wage has doubled since it was introduced in 1998, unemployment is at a record low

Apparently, there are quite a few more of those foreign types here than when it was introduced, too.

Did I hear that right? Are there?

unemployment is at a record low

I'm pretty sure there a good number of minimum wage supporters in this thread that are the first people to say that unemployment is only at a record low because of abhorrent zero hour contracts.

I think it is acknowledged that whilst employment is up satisfaction and confidence (in terms of job security) with those jobs is at a low - there was a piece on PM on Monday afternoon.

If you can build, supply and service a robot to do that for £3.33 an hour do it, as you will make a fortune.

[url= https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/dec/12/mark-carney-britains-car-wash-economy-low-wage-jobs ]The problem is that we're not doing that because we can pay people a pittance to do it instead.[/url]

fifeandy - Member

His mate Jimmy has to work a little harder for his £10/hr.

£10 minimum wage will solve UKs productivity problems aswell! win win win win win win!

I have to say that the bearded one has won me over somewhat - he does seem to have a degree of, for a better word, dignity, about him given the amount of crap being constantly hurled in his direction by the fish eyed sociopath and her cronies which I find impressive.

What is not to aspire to in the Labour manifesto. The more I read and hear the Tories the more it seems they have taken their political/election strategy straight from the pages of Leviathan or Locke's Two Treaties on Government i.e. first create a perceived problem in the state of nature and then the remedy. Perhaps 'strong and stable' to be replaced with 'the life of man under a Corbyn Government will be, solitary, poore, nasty, brutish, and short .

I listened to Hammond this morning and the best he could churn out was the 'strong and stable' and then the 'living within our means' - the point is (the Tories perceived problem) is their definition of 'means' - there is more 'means' about than the Tory perception of it.

As the guy on Question Time pointed out last week, at the end of WW2 gov't debt was 200% of GDP but out of that came the welfare state and the NHS.

Living within our means is bullshit. Its idealogy that makes the Tories want to cut.

BTW Tories per year in govt borrow more than Labour! So they are shite at living within their means anyway.

[quote=richc ]
If you can build, supply and service a robot to do that for £3.33 an hour do it, as you will make a fortune.

why would I want to do that? i'd have to give it all away in tax 😉

I listened to Hammond this morning and the best he could churn out was the 'strong and stable' and then the 'living within our means'

I think the penny is dropping that the tories have absolutely nothing to say other than "we're not Corbyn", and when people see Corbyn on the telly (probably for the first time), they realise that he's not the devil that the Daily Mail and the The Scum make him out to be. Then they see Mummy basically running away and hiding from the public. There are even signs that the media are beginning to change their minds on him. In many respects this is turning into a repeat of his first leadership campaign.

I wonder if the minimum wage were suddenly increased, employers who couldn't afford it would simply offer those employees fewer hours in the short term?

Works out to roughly a four day week or six hour days. It might not have that much of an affect on *some* jobs. And it might really help people with childcare arrangements and such.

I think the minimum wage is an important aspect of getting back to people being able to support themselves rather than having to rely on state support. I don't think the ramifications have been thought through though. Companies will not redistribute salaries across the company and if they tried there'd be a mass exit of more skilled employees. Employers will reduce headcount and expect more from those left. Employers will be a lot more picky about who they employ for £10 an hour and they will have a decent pool of people to chose from. The minimum wage increase is not pushing up other incomes, we'll just end up with more and more minimum wage jobs. People who get caught up in this who were previously above minimum wage are going to think why am I doing a more stressful job when I could be earning the same as someone woring in Tescos. I know it's a topic of conversation in my wife's office, a combination of small or zero pay rises mean the gap is closing quickly.

I think the minimum wage is an important aspect of getting back to people being able to support themselves rather than having to rely on state support.

the problem is some companies could easily pay more [ at the cost of profits] and some - generally smaller ones - would be out of business. i think the best plan is to have a living wage and drift towards it over say a decade or so.

£10 minimum wage - that's huge. It might cause trouble with employers, and it might spark inflation, but it's better than doing nothing.

if its 'by the end of our parliament' then it represents 5% per year increase. That's less than the average put out by the current parliament. Its one of those things that sounds good, but when the maths is unraveled its not massive..

The trouble is I don't think they would pay more, it's the same mindset around annual pay rises, no rise this year because the economy isn't doing well, we've not hit our (unrealistic) profit target etc. Why companies think it acceptable to not maintain the value of employees wages is beyond me, I suppose it's because they can. I wish they'd try it with their utility providers.

Also Starbucks may need to be on shore, many companies are desperate to off shore more manufacturing and this provides incentive to do it (ignoring the total cost of off shoring production is often higher overall).

I don't have the answers but it could backfire fantastically, bit like encouraging gender equality in the workplace (which is fundamentally the right thing to do) which has led to both partners working which has fuelled the house price boom meaning the family still has the same fiscal standard of living without one of the team being able to devote quality time to parenting for example. Society and it's problems are complex and simple solution often have intended consequences, I'm still in favour of a living wage, shrink the state, concentrate resources on supporting fewer people to a higher standard, but I don't think it's going to be a magic bullet that solves benefit dependency.

Companies will not redistribute salaries across the company and if they tried there'd be a mass exit of more skilled employees.

That depends on how many they employ at minimum wage and the balance of the above minimum wage salary. If could have little impact on the people above, maybe no pay rise for a year or two. Try explaining to them it is because they want to pay the lowest paid in the company a little bit more and all but the really selfish would be happy enough with that.

Employers will be a lot more picky about who they employ for £10 an hour and they will have a decent pool of people to chose from.

The pool of people will be the same, it is just the minimum you can pay has changed.

A lot of over thinking here, the minimum wage is not going from £8 to £50 is it...

encouraging gender equality in the workplace (which is fundamentally the right thing to do) which has led to both partners working

Eh? Why couldn't the man stay at home and look after the kids?

Living within our means is bullshit. Its idealogy that makes the Tories want to cut.

Yes it's the equivalent of your wealthy retired in laws lecturing you on how the pennies make the pounds.

It's the biggest myth going.

I knew I'd get a comment like that, I never mentioned who could stay at home, the point is now neither have the opportunity as both incomes are needed to afford an average property, the price of an average property being the availability of cash through an increase in household income or unregulated and irresponsible lending, both of which have pushed house prices up to stupid levels.

In hindsight when gender equality in the workplace was being introduced gender equality in the home should have also been a priority so that there was a genuine option for roles to reversed, instead we ended up with both partners working which led to house price inflation. Too late to put the genie back in the bottle now, to an extent paternity rights are catching up but society is still pretty polarised on gender roles unfiortunately. Anyway that's now irrelevant as many couples need both incomes to sustain the lifestyle they've come to expect.

Here's an interesting fact about some countries you might assume had a very high minimum wages. Norway, Sweden, Denmark, and Finland do not have any minimum wage at all. Instead every industry is unionised and the collective agreements define what workers are paid.

Minimum wages are only necessary when the fundamentals of your economy are skewed against the workers. While fixing the imbalance should be the priority a minimum wage can be used as a sticking plaster.

Anyone else listen to Jeremy Vine?
Corbyn did very well I thought.

Another poll out today that shows Tory lead down by 5 points, Labour have increased by 10 points since the election was anounced. Not a bad achievement in itself. Certainly worth watching what happens.

Another poll out today that shows Tory lead down by 5 points

And that was before they revealed that their core supporters are going to have to spend their kids inheritances on profit-driven care homes. 🙂

Vine banging on about Trident even though Corbyn answered his question comprehensively, twice.
😐

Another poll out today that shows Tory lead down by 5 points, Labour have increased by 10 points since the election was anounced. Not a bad achievement in itself. Certainly worth watching what happens.

Calm it down on the positivity please.

I am starting to think that if the election was not until August we would see a very good shift.
Labour are coming across very well (not including Abbot!) and people are starting to see who they really are rather than just relying on 3rd hand biased crap. Whereas the Tories really don't want you to know who they are.

Calm it down on the positivity please.

I don't think anyone's under any illusions, but it is very encouraging to see that Labour in pretty much every sense are running rings around the tories on the campaign front. Aside from the policies and manifestos, the general impression you get from the campaign is that Corbyn and Labour are out there taking on their critics and happy to talk to people, whereas May and the Tories are doing the opposite and complacently assuming that all they have to do is repeat soundbites and slag off Corbyn. Even the usual sycophants in the media look bored of it, and as a result labour are now getting a hearing.

Calm it down on the positivity please.

Yeah - still don't think there's time, unfortunately. But in many ways it wil be a shame if this increase in popular support doesn't come to anything.

If only you could weight your vote by how keen you were. So 30% of voters who felt really really strongly could beat 50% of voters who weren't overly bothered.

Well there is a little hope for Corbyn based on how badly the Lib Dems and Conservative manifestos have gone down. Amazing how incompetent all 3 parties are, embarrassing for them all and not a good omen for the UK whoever gets in.

dragon - Member
Well there is a little hope for Corbyn based on how badly the Lib Dems and Conservative manifestos have gone down. Amazing how incompetent all 3 parties are, embarrassing for them all and not a good omen for the UK whoever gets in.

agreed

what a shocking choice we have before us

my friends daughter was asked to do some corbyn art

selling well apparently- it was a request
[img] [/img]

can grime save corbs??

http://grmdaily.com/video/rants-n-bants-election-break-down

Excellent video.

🙂

Corbyn battle bus spotted:
[img] [/img]

Tory trolls are quiet today, wonder if that's a coincidence given the papers today?

If only the labour party had got behind him from the beginning and made his attributes into a virtue rather than spend a year bashing him and feeding ammunition to the tory press.

I will never forgive them for what they have done. Hillary Benn, Andy Burnham and the rest of them.

I wouldn't normally 'lol' but that's made I laugh, that has. 🙂

If only the labour party had got behind him from the beginning and made his attributes into a virtue rather than spend a year bashing him and feeding ammunition to the tory press.

Agreed 100%.

Employers will reduce headcount

That argument has been touted about the Min Wage since day one, and - on the face of it at least - the exact opposite happened and continues to happen.

If I knew how i'd be tempted to put a tenner on May not being the next PM 😯

Having the party behind him might not have improved his popularity at all. I think having a bunch of neo-liberal blairites trying to bury you is actually good for a politician these days.

I'll just leave this here...

https://tompride.wordpress.com/2017/05/21/former-active-ira-member-serving-as-tory-party-councillor/

I'm not sure what I've done to deserve it. But I've had repeated Facebook adverts linking Corbyn with holocaust deniers and IRA sympathising so I guess some cages have been rattled.

Also this.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/lords-stunned-by-tory-peers-ira-funding-claim-2126723.html

Tories.
Lying duplicitous untrustworthy hypocritical murdering scum.

John McDonnell excelled himself on Marr.

"We will not borrow to renationalise the Water Utilities"

"We will issue bonds" 😯 😯 😯

As was pointed out to him thats hiw Governments borrow money and if they cut bills as they say they would they'd be no prodits to repay the debt either.

@piemonster Corbyn was recalled to the Commons select committee for lying about his meetings with the holocaust denier. His stance on the IRA has always been ckear as was his refusal to condem them at the weekend.

Inheritance Tax is a good thing say lefty STWers, we must stop the middle classes / wealthy giving their kids an unfair advantage. Using inheritance to pay fir social care - oh no that's a dementia tax

100 to 150 seat Tory win

His stance on the IRA has always been clear as was his refusal to condem them at the weekend.

Yes, it [i]has[/i] always been clear: [i]terrorism[/i] is reprehensible and to be condemned.

What - exactly - is wrong with that? To single out the IRA would be to downplay and tacitly approve of (for example) the UDA's terrorism (or were they OK because they were Loyalists and killed republicans?)

So we can at least conclude that Corbyn is not enough of a lowest-common-denominator, nationalistic, sound-bite spewing rabble-rouser for you.

To which I say "thank **** for that".

Inheritance Tax is a good thing say lefty STWers, we must stop the middle classes / wealthy giving their kids an unfair advantage. Using inheritance to pay fir social care - oh no that's a dementia tax

Maybe the lefty STWers can see there is a difference. Guessing you can't?

Inheritance Tax is a good thing say lefty STWers, we must stop the middle classes / wealthy giving their kids an unfair advantage. Using inheritance to pay fir social care - oh no that's a dementia tax

it was the FT, those well known lefties that ran the [b]Dementia Tax[/b] headline this weekend

Weak and Wobbly May is struggling to dig herself out of this hole of her own making

ice-cold-corbyn is just addressing ever bigger crowds....

[quote=jambalaya ]
100 to 150 seat Tory win

maybe. but it's may's election to lose.

and you can't deny she's having a damn good go at it.

jambalaya - Member

His stance on the IRA has always been clear as was his refusal to condem them at the weekend.

According to transcripts of the interview he said: “I condemn all the bombing by both the loyalists and the IRA.” Another jambafact then

His stance on the IRA has always been ckear

Go on then - what is Corbyn's stance on the IRA? Specifically.

and you can't deny she's having a damn good go at it.

I have to say it was nice to see her getting a taste of Corbyn's medicine (for at least a little while) at her latest press conference:
https://twitter.com/benfolley/status/866636153268686851

he won't answer and you know it...

Go on then - what is Corbyn's stance on the IRA? Specifically.

"Whatever the Daily Mail told me it was..."

when I speak to friends about Corbyn they usually mention Diane Abbott, no-one seems to be keen to let her into power. Loving all the Corbyn stuff all over FB though, him greeting mobs of happy people, it's great. Didn't May tweet at the weekend saying if she loses just 6 seats she'll lose her majority (if labour and snp team up?!) - maybe I heard it on STW, can't remember but I'm loving that, just 6 seats, come on! Corbyn needs to get up to Scotland and stay there for a while, convincing labour voters back.

kerley - Member

Inheritance Tax is a good thing say lefty STWers, we must stop the middle classes / wealthy giving their kids an unfair advantage. Using inheritance to pay fir social care - oh no that's a dementia tax

Maybe the lefty STWers can see there is a difference. Guessing you can't?

this lefty certainly can. Mind you I would have 100% inheritance tax over a relativity modest amount. I am disgusted that the tories actions mean that if my parents don't end up using their capital to pay for care I will be in line for hundreds of thousands of unearned income ( they didn't earn it either - its all house price inflation.)

I am disgusted that the tories actions mean that if my parents don't end up using their capital to pay for care I will be in line for hundreds of thousands of unearned income

Just how disgusted ? You can donate it to charity quite easily.

jekkyl - Member

Corbyn needs to get up to Scotland and stay there for a while, convincing labour voters back.

Realistically, no, he needs to concentrate on the fight against other parties. Scotland's a low return on investment- the odds of winning significant seats back are low and the benefit is half as much as winning or defending a seat from the tories. And tehre's a very real risk that they split the left vote and cause seats to flip from SNP to Tory.

All she had to do was say nothing, talk to nobody and create a vague manifesto.

On the contrary, I think this is the problem. They've tried that and it hasn't worked due in no small part to labour running a pretty slick and organised campaign. Thanks to the shocking complacency on the dementia tax policy, and the frankly amateurish u-turn, now the tories have to try and get May doing what she hates, which is answering questions, presenting her vision and getting out and talking to people. They've got quite a job on their hands.

allthepies - Member

I am disgusted that the tories actions mean that if my parents don't end up using their capital to pay for care I will be in line for hundreds of thousands of unearned income

Just how disgusted ? You can donate it to charity quite easily.

Indeed. I have it planned what I will do with it in terms of good works. It won't all be spent on me. Unless they pop of very soon I will be retired with no mortgage. I don't need it. It will be spent some of it supporting things they believed in and the rest will go into the same trust for good works that I intend to set up with my will ie I will be able to set that trust up before I am dead

Northwind - Member

jekkyl - Member

Corbyn needs to get up to Scotland and stay there for a while, convincing labour voters back.

Realistically, no, he needs to concentrate on the fight against other parties. Scotland's a low return on investment- the odds of winning significant seats back are low and the benefit is half as much as winning or defending a seat from the tories. And tehre's a very real risk that they split the left vote and cause seats to flip from SNP to Tory.

also there is very little between the labour party and the SNP on policy. The SNP will support a labour government

yup another jambafact put to bed

Dementia Tax was coined by ... The Spectator

https://twitter.com/amolrajanBBC/status/866399729667760128

Have we done [url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-poll-wales-general-election-2017-16-point-shift-swing-a7749786.html ]Labour have overtaken the Tories in Wales and has a 10 point lead[/url] ?

The turning of the tide?

Kimbers, John McDonnell was claiming "Dementia Tax" for Labour on Marr.

As I have posted before in very left leaning France not only do they means test the person concerned but the kids too. The cost of health care provision is rising very fast, much faster than any currently political party is planning for, Tories included.

@TJ you can set IHT threshold very low and it will still be easy to avoid. I practice it is only paid by those who are too dis-organised to plan for it or who die unexpectedly early.

Jamba - you can make it impossible to avoid if you want - and for most folk its their house so not something you can hide overseas

Mind you I would have 100% inheritance tax over a relativity modest amount

Go and suggest that to a farmer

his stance on the IRA

Really Jamba after the cluster**** of the last few days you're really going to have to do better than that. The trouble is that might have been shocking to people a couple years ago, but the tories shot their load on that too early and people have had plenty of time either to get used to it or realise it's a load of exaggerated bollox. The simple fact is that this tory campaign has been a shocking demonstration of hubris, arrogance and incompetence and everyone can see it. Keep on With the IRA nonsense though, you're only fanning the flames.

And it's such a transparent, tawdry, contemptible, dishonest trick he pulls, too - keep repeating the same lie, throwing the same mud, in the hope that some of it will eventually stick.

Might fly with Daily Mail readers (who are doubtless still looking forward to the £350m a week that we'll be able to spend on the NHS once we've closed the door on those bloody immigrants that Labour let in*), but it's gratifying to see that it's not a tactic with much traction here.

* A perfect example of "tell the same lie often enough and stupid people will believe it..."

No doubt Brillo will ask the same questions come Friday night, wonder what Jezza will have to say then.

*and never respond to clear evidence countering your point.

Unfortunately it worked for the leave camp, it worked for trump and it'll probably work for may.

Where's AB when you need him. With apologies to

"the bovine and phlegmatic Anglo-Saxons."

from the Guardian July 1948 - organised spivvery has always been the best description of the Tories.

"The eyes of the world are turning to Great Britain. We now have the moral leadership of the world, and before many years are over we shall have people coming here as to a modern Mecca, learning from us in the twentieth century as they learned from us in the seventeenth," said Mr Aneurin Bevan, Minister of Health, at a Labour rally in Manchester yesterday.

The meeting was called to celebrate the anniversary of Labour's accession to power. The Labour party, he said, would win the 1950 election because successful Toryism and an intelligent electorate were a contradiction in terms. His own experiences ensured that no amount of cajolery could eradicate from his heart a deep burning hatred of the Tory party. "So far as I am concerned they are lower than vermin," he went on. "They condemned millions of people to semi-starvation. I warn you young men and women, do not listen to what they are saying, do not listen to the seductions of Lord Woolton. They have not changed, or if they have they are slightly worse."

The Government decided the issues in accordance with the best principles, he said: "The weak first; and the strong next." Mr. Churchill preferred a free-for-all, but what was Toryism except organised Spivvery?

As a result of controls, the well-to-do had not been able to build houses, but ordinary men and women were moving into their own homes. Progress could not be made without pain. People who campaigned against controls were conducting an immoral campaign. There was a kind of schizophrenia in the country, so that people reading newspapers and hearing talk in luxury hotels got an entirely different conception of what was happening, which did not square with the statistics. The bodies and spirits of the people were being built up - but the Government's efforts could not be sustained except by the energies and labour of the people. Production must be raised to make the new legislative reforms a living reality.

The Government never promised in 1945 that everybody was going to be better off. It knew some were worse off to-day, but it always intended they should be.

[Bevan's "vermin" remark - one of the most famous jibes in politics - was adroitly turned against the Attlee government by Tory speakers, who pretended it insulted their voters rather than policy makers. However, Bevan merely retorted that men of Celtic fire were needed to bring about great reforms like the new NHS. That was why, he explained, Welshmen were put in charge instead of "the bovine and phlegmatic Anglo-Saxons."]

 

And isn't it depressing how little has changed since then?

jambalaya - Member
Kimbers, John McDonnell was claiming "Dementia Tax" for Labour on Marr.

As I have posted before in very left leaning France not only do they means test the person concerned but the kids too.

Nye bevan spoils it at the end with that sneery remark about Anglo-saxons. Self mythologising bobbins. I believe he was from South Wales anyway, so probably of Anglo-Saxon stock, whatever that means, which is nothing.

Anyway, time for this.

Keep on With the IRA nonsense though

OK what about when Corbyn invited two convicted IRA to parliament three weeks after the Brighton bombings?

Depends where your sympathies lie eh, dazh.

Hmm - the party of Pinochet

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/tories-have-forgotten-that-thatcher-wasnt-just-a-terrorist-sympathiser-but-close-friends-with-one-10507850.html

OK what about when Corbyn invited two convicted IRA to parliament three weeks after the Brighton bombings?

https://tompride.wordpress.com/2017/05/21/former-active-ira-member-serving-as-tory-party-councillor/

Dya wanna keep up these IRA smears, 'cause theres another 2 Torys linked to the IRA that i can point links to as well as the one above, and im sure more can be dug out the woodwork.

Dya wanna hear the story of the ex IRA ASU member who was working both sides, was thrown out the cause for robbing old ladies with a baseball bat, went running to Mi5 for protection, then shipped
to Liverpool where he was later convicted for supplying heroin and after serving 7 years at Essels leisure, was welcomed with open arms in the Torquay Conservatives?

They neither justify Corbyn's behaviour or the idiots defending him.