Jeremy Corbyn

The stuff about Cambell is not paranoid nonsense. Portland communications co ordinated it. His PR company. One of the folk from portland managed to get himself on TV as a member of the public saying how bad corbyn is. Eagle had registered a website for her leadership campaign before the results of the referendum

It was a carefully coordinated move by the blairites.

Ah yes... the infamous 'Blairite' bogeyman. Everything's their fault isn't it?

If Corbyn and his team (such as it is) spent as much time looking at what the Tories were doing, as they do dreaming up paranoid conspiracy theories about a man who was deposed yonks ago, perhaps it could muster up having a crack at being an actual opposition.

Bit to much like hard work , that though. Best to just fall back on what you've spent the last 30 years doing. Sniping at people in your own party, and just doing your own utterly irrelevant thing, unencumbered by trivial stuff like trying to win general elections

tjagain - Member

Under any of the apparatchiks like Eagle or Smith they have no chance at all of regaining ground in Scotland. I might vote for a corbyn labour party - infact I probably would.

Interesting, although I think you might be putting more on the emphasis of the importance of the UK national Labour leader than many other voters do.

Three months ago in response to this :

squirrelking - Member

Ernie - fwiw I would happily vote for Corbyn but wouldn't take a shite in Dugdales mouth if she was starving.

Posted 3 months ago #

I said :

ernie_lynch - Member

Well yesterday for the first time in 20 years I voted for the Labour Party, I didn't want to do it (I was still having doubts as I walked to the polling station) But I did it because it was the right thing to do.

Posted 3 months ago #

That was 3 months ago, today I would be significantly more reluctant to vote Labour than I was then, despite Corbyn still being leader.

And to be honest unless the candidate wasn't one of the 20% of Labour MPs who didn't go on strike, who refused to oppose this Tory government, and who didn't collude and conspire with the right-wing press to sabotage Labour's chances, then I can't guarantee with 100% certainty that I would vote for them - even with Corbyn still leader.

12 months ago I voted for Angela Eagle to be deputy leader of the Labour Party. If there was a general election next week and I was on the Wallasey electoral register it would take massive determination on my part to ignore my emotional gut feelings and vote for her. But I probably would.

So I really can't blame Scots for still being reluctant to vote Labour even with Corbyn as leader. Although obviously I think they are wrong if they don't. Just wrong for the right reasons 🙂

tjagain - Member

I simply disagree with you Binners

There will come a point when you realise that it's better leaving it just there. Trust me. There's really no point arguing with a ranter.

Evening comrade.

[img] [/img]

I'm off to our local Momentum meeting tomorrow. It's a sort of counter-insurgency 😀

binners - Member
...30% of lifelong labour voters say they'd rather vote for Theresa May than Corbyn FFS!...

And that is precisely what has been wrong with the Labour Party. It's an ersatz Tory party which has driven away almost all voters who believe in what the Labour party was formed to do, which values the sleazy lying Blairites regularly subscribed to at every election but then did the opposite.

I take it the good news is that 70% would vote for Corbyn, plus most of the new members, people who are seeing it may at last be worth making a visit to the ballot box.

As for Corbyn being supposedly walked over in Parliament, on the occasions I've watched it's obvious he doesn't subscribe to the 6th form shouty nyah nyah version of debate and prefers reasoned discussions. I like that.

No, I'm not a Labour voter. 🙂

And that is precisely what has been wrong with the Labour Party. [b]It's an ersatz Tory party[/b] which has driven away almost all voters who believe in what the Labour party was formed to do,

How did that manifest itself?

Could it be that the hands on the (spin/policy) levers were tainted by a Winchester/Oxford PPE education, substantial inheritance, no need for a mortgage, grammar school education for the children??

Or is that the current lot and what "real" people are like 😉

Beluga Socialism beats Champagne Socialism!! Are Wykehamist ties de rigour at Momentum meetings!!

Are Wykehamist ties de rigour at Momentum meetings

Come the revolution, comrades, we'll all be just fine. Pater has a spiffingly well stocked wine cellar! As long as we don't let the proles anywhere near the '81 Yquem it'll be tickety-boo.

Up the, err, domestic staff?

I'm off to our local Momentum meeting tomorrow. It's a sort of counter-insurgency

Will you be reporting back? Please do. I'm particularly interested in where all these closet socialist workers have come from seeing as in all my time back in the day campaigning on various environmental and other insufferably middle class lefty stuff they were in very short supply.

I see that the New Labour clique further lost their grip on the party today :

[url= https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/news/77999/jeremy-corbyn-allies-sweep-labour-national ]Jeremy Corbyn allies sweep Labour National Executive Committee election[/url]

And Eddie Izzard failed to get on the NEC. It seems that being a celebrity gimmick/funnyman doesn't impress Labour's half a million members quite enough. I guess making yourself look like a complete prat next to Nigel Farrage, of all people ffs, probably didn't help.

teamhurtmore - Member
'And that is precisely what has been wrong with the Labour Party. It's an ersatz Tory party which has driven away almost all voters who believe in what the Labour party was formed to do,'
How did that manifest itself?

Lack of participation in elections seems to have been one consequence.

Caviar Gauche 🙂

Ernie New Labour was the resust of 18 years in opposition, with Kinnock et al getting rid of [s]Momentum[/s] Miltant Tendancy and moving the party to a place that [b]reflected the electorate of the day[/b]. IMO since then the electorate has moved further to the centre / right. I use again one of my favourite litmus tests, the STW obsession with buying on the internet as cheaply as possible, it matters not this drives LBS further to the cliff edge or that many online sellers are setup to minimse tax via the EU free market. All that really matters is price - and STW regards itself as left leaning. Sokidarity what solidarity ?

The UK has shifted, Labour moved with it under Blair resulting in 13 years of Government. Corbyn and his supporters are dragging the party to a place which does not reflect the views of the UK today. By all means give it a go in 2020 but the risks are high, Labour in England could start to look like Labour in Scotland.

Leaders lead. Sheep follow. the UK electorate has only moved to the right ( if they have - I dispute this) because there are no leaders on the left in England. What new labour did was try to be all things to everyone and had too much fear of the right wing press. That right wing press do not have the power they did now in the internet age.

Scotland certainly has moved to the left as a whole over the last 20 years. Labour is seen as a right wing party up here. We have several parties to the left. SNP, Greens and various socialist groups ( who keep splintering)

Scotland certainly has moved to the left as a whole over the last 20 years. Labour is seen as a right wing party up here.

So Labour are winning elections in Scotland then ?

Beat me to it Ernie!

Scotland certainly has moved to the left as a whole over the last 20 years. Labour is seen as a right wing party up here

Straight from the Fringe!!!

SNP have been bloody smart, pretend the are left of centre to fool the old labour voters and then implement polices that are right of the Tories. Brilliant tactics, if deceitful. But no change there.

A good example? Deat Nicola and the 50p tax rate.

various socialist groups ( who keep splintering)

Splitters!

Ernie - no they are in freefall ( as you well know) as they are seen as tory lite as they are not left by any standards. Dugdale appears to be attempting to change this but is hamstrung by the west of scotland labour numpties and london labour. I have hopes for her tho.

CFH - you couldn't make it up!

Ernie - no they are in freefall ( as you well know) as they are seen as tory lite as they are not left by any standards.

You mean Eddie didn't sway it ?

[img] [/img]

I would have thought that a funnyman who dresses in drag would have had the Scots rushing to vote Labour. Do the Scots have no sense of fun ?

Although Jim Murphy clearly saw the joke.

you couldn't make it up!

It does make me wonder what all those groups could achieve if they could stop bickering!
For example;
Communist Party of Britain
Communist Party of Great Britain
Communist Party of Great Britain (Marxist-Leninist)
Revolutionary Communist Party of Great Britain (Marxist-Leninist)
New Worker (apparently a "Marxist-Leninist party that split from the Communist Party of Great Britain in the 1970s")

Etc.

Am pretty sure that each of them has about eight members, all looking very, very earnestly at each other for fear that the other one is about to be the next splitter, but yes - You really couldn't make it up!

The scots socialists had their chance. 7 msps in the first parliament and actually did some good ( ended warrant sales) However they split and have not been able to get a united front together since so diluting their vote and losing their chance.

We had instead of the scottish socialist party 3 lots. RISE, Solidarity and TUSC so the lefties vote was split and they ended up with nothing even tho if they had been together they would have got some representation.

However we did get 6 greens on the left

[url= https://www.byline.com/column/11/article/1177 ]This captures some of my mood[/url]

Politics since the last election makes me sad. Ive always tried to vote based on who I felt would serve the widest interest, last time it was purely based on who felt least likely to ruin the slim veneer of financial security I've tried to put in place for my family.

Yet, we had a party unable to capitalise on a post recession coalition which demonised liberal out of the game, because the frontman was a joke and the drummer couldn't keep time. Labour decided to fix that by bringing back the 80s, brilliant. Better yet the new shadow chancellor makes balls look competent.

We then had a referendum where it appears that many people on both sides didn't have a clue what they were voting for and two lobying sides which played out fear vs control, in a daily mail fashion. The fallout in terms of leadership on both sides shows what an wtf moment that really was.

The only thing that remotely cheers me up is that America are keeping us off the foot of the table by having an even less informed electorate and an utterly hatstand chaos monkey in the form of Trump.

I'm not sure that Scotland "has moved to the left", I think it has stayed where it always was and what was the left has moved to the right, but the biggest issue is independence. If you support that then it takes priority over your normal political leanings. The SNP's trick is not to look offensive to left or right voters.

It's why I watch Corbyn closely. I think he is our biggest threat and the only person capable of bringing back some of the errant Labour voters. (They'd need a new crew though, the current mob are seen as lying mouthpieces for Westminster/Blairism).

Maybe epicyclo. Scotland stays in a similar place politically but the rest of the UK and the UK wide parties have moved right?

Independence is a odd issue - as a large % of SNP voters do not seem to support it but a large % of Labour voters do. Even odder is a significant % of SNP voters want out of the EU. Some real conundrums to unravel around the issue

Even odder is a significant % of SNP voters want out of the EU.

I blame Corbyn.

Anyone know a bookie taking bets on con seat majority for 2020? I fancy a flutter on a 100+ majority.

the UK electorate has only moved to the right ( if they have - I dispute this) because there are no leaders on the left in England.

That's like saying that people are only driving cars because we don't have the cart-wrights that we'd need to provide them all with a wooden cart.

The left has long ago lost the arguments about nationalisation, [s]investment[/s] waste, feathering the beds of their union paymasters and borrowing money and saddling future generations with the debt repayments.

"Anyone know a bookie taking bets on con seat majority for 2020? I fancy a flutter on a 100+ majority."

Why not put your house on it? You seem so confident of a Tory victory, and Labour failing miserably, and I'm sure any number of bookies would happily take your money. You'd surely get really good odds, this early one. You could look on it as a good 'investment'.

Go on; put your money where your mouth is. 😉

What an odd post.

Do you know of any online bookies taking 2020 seat bets because my account is with ladbrokes and they haven't opened a book yet?

Or did you just go full momentum there? Never go full momentum.

"It does make me wonder what all those groups could achieve if they could stop bickering!
For example;
Communist Party of Britain
Communist Party of Great Britain
Communist Party of Great Britain (Marxist-Leninist)
Revolutionary Communist Party of Great Britain (Marxist-Leninist)
New Worker (apparently a "Marxist-Leninist party that split from the Communist Party of Great Britain in the 1970s")

Etc."

But you've got exactly the same on the right:

British National Party
English Defence League
Britain First
Combat 18
National Front

Oh, and UKIP.

Etc.

Yes, there is a [i]slight[/i] difference between far-right and far-left political groups, namely that the far-left ones tend not to be vile xenophobic scum, but if we're descending into infant school politics, it's only fair that there's a balance, no?

The Uk electorate are the UK electorate. They and their voting patterns reflect the nature of our society and the changes that have taken place.

Since WW2, the Tory vote has been steady/gradual decline, while the Labour vote has seen a more noticeable decline apart from the period under he who cannot be named. [b]Go figure?[/b]

The current debate is akin to companies who are focused on their product not their market and wonder why they then wither and decline.

Its all a bit odd because the coffee tastes fine for those who are awake

As for Scotland, "confused" is the best description. Hence the desire to simultaneously give up independence (the €) and gain it - no really, Nicola. Pull that one off and you are Hermione Granger personified. No wonder the voting patterns look so weird!!! Unless of course its just simple anti-English/Westminster.

Cloddy - are there any groups other than [s]The PFJ[/s] Momentum that aren't instantly labelled as 'scum'?

It just seems a consistent theme in your posts. The new 'kinder, gentler' politics at play again, I presume?

cranberry - apart from the fact for the last generation its the tories who have out debted labour by a long way

Out debted? Thats a nice new term....

es, there is a slight difference between far-right and far-left political groups, namely that the far-left ones tend not to be vile xenophobic scum

The new 'kinder, gentler' politics at play again, I presume?

Without wanting to come across as a conspiracy nut, I'm of the firm belief that the portrayal of momentum as a bullying mob, and Corbyn supporters as deluded 1970s lefties is simply a media and establishment strategy to discredit what is a growing threat to the neoliberal status quo. It's a much simpler explanation than hundreds of thousands of closet trots suddenly crawling out of the woodwork to implement their entryist masterplan.

[url= https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/aug/09/jeremy-corbyn-supporters-voters-labour-leader-politics ]The other point of view.[/url]

Interesting link thanks

One half of that description is accurate, however. Corbyn supporters may not be a mob, but they are angry. And to understand why, it is useful to consider the words of the academic Jeremy Gilbert, a longstanding Labour member and activist who has joined Momentum: “Momentum is simply trying to give a voice to a body of opinion which has been widespread throughout the country for many years, but has been denied any kind of place in our public life since the early days of New Labour. It is a body of opinion which believes, with good reason, t[b]hat the embrace of neoliberal economics and neoconservative foreign policy under Blair was a disaster[/b] … Naturally some of those voices, suppressed for so long, sound raucous, aggressive and uncouth.”

I wonder if people even know what these terms mean, let alone check the evidence re the disaster and any causation.

In the meantime, can a cuckoo change its spots?

"Vile anti-semitic scum?"

No, you'll generaly find those on the far-right. We've done that A-S thing; it was proven to be a red herring and attempted smear which was without any real foundation. Jamba is probably still banging on about it, but the more intelligent people have moved on.

It's interesting though, isn't it? Those on the right mentioning the far-left fringes as though they had any genuine relevance to Corbyn's Left, but there's far more in common between Theresa May and her ilk and the far-right, when you properly analyse it. Her time as home secretary was spent trying to deport as many people as possible, and as we have seen, often illegally, thus proving an insidiously xenophobic and anti-foreigner ideology which persists on the right. And we often see Tory politicians making racist comments, yet never see them opposing xenophobia in the same way those lefties do.

And it's an absolute disgrace, that Cameron's wife's hairdresser gets a gong, with hardly a murmur in the mainstream press, yet a lifelong campaigner for Human Rights is vilified.

Cloddy - are there any groups other than The PFJ Momentum that aren't instantly labelled as 'scum'?

So you don't think that far-right extremist xenophobic organisations, full of vile racists and assorted nazis, [i]aren't[/i] scum?

And we often see Tory politicians making racist comments, yet never see them opposing xenophobia in the same way those lefties do.

Did you miss the Brexit vote?

No

Naturally some of those voices, suppressed for so long, sound raucous, aggressive and uncouth

Extreme left and extreme right are equally scummy looking to anyone in the middle.

Cloddy - I'm prepared to coutenance the idea that some people who hold views to the right of Momentum may have slightly more nuanced opinions so that they can't all be easily dismissed as vile nazi's and scum

Maybe thats not how it tlooks from in the bunker though?

If/when Jezza seals his tin-pot hollow 'victory' when are you planning on opening the 're-education' camps?

Extreme left and extreme right are equally scummy looking to anyone in the middle.

And fortunately unelectable

5th - but neither corbyn nor the majority of his supporters are anything like hard left. they are centre left.

Yes, there is a slight difference between far-right and far-left political groups, namely that the far-left ones tend not to be vile xenophobic scum, but if we're descending into infant school politics, it's only fair that there's a balance, no?

Its you that said...its only fair to have a balance, so what kind of vile scum on the far left are we talking about? After all, its all a matter of opinion, is it not?