I wouldn't refer to losing the support of 80% of the parliamentary party 'needless' really.
But ... sod them! What do they know? They're all Blairites anyway, aren't they? Back to the issue in hand.... New potential recruits for the glorious revolution comrade! Sending the message out from the bunker!
[quote=scotroutes ]If only he didn't have a needless leadership election to contest eh?
I must have missed that one when he was supposed to be campaigning to Remain. I suppose the one now does at least give him something to do when parliament is in recess and he'd otherwise be twiddling his thumbs.
I am a lifelong labour voter who stopped voting labour because labour moved so far to the right. If labour moves back to left of centre I might well come back into the fold. Corbyn I might vote for. Smith never. I think those forcing the leadership challenge are utter fools who are causing great damage to the party.
The PLP have completely lot any understanding of the party at large and of the votors
Here is Scotland we have seen something different. Politicians who sound genuine and don't speak in soundbites and who attempt to lead public opinion not simply follow what the "focus groups" tell them to do. As a result they sound genuine and its no fluke that the two parties that are led by people like this - tory and SNP are doing so well whereas the labour party in Scotland languishes in a very poor place
[quote=tjagain ]As a result they sound genuine and its no fluke that the two parties that are led by people like this - tory and SNP are doing so well whereas the labour party in Scotland languishes in a very poor place
Ah, so it is all about personality, not policy? 😈
ernie_lynch - Member
And what's with this constant nonsense about Corbyn being "unelectable" ?A couple of months ago 1,326 Labour councillors were elected, compared to 842 Tory councillors, the Tories lost control of 1 council and Labour didn't lose control of any councils.
So what happened ? Why did voters elect 1,326 Labour councillors ...... hadn't they heard that Corbyn/Labour is "unelectable" ? I can't see how, I hear that totally meaningless term used all the time.
The unelectable criticism is about being elected as Prime Minister and running a government, not getting councillors elected to local authorities. You get that there is a big difference, right?
Not really aracer. Its about having politicians who tell the truth and sound like they are telling the truth and who sound like they believe in something other than just getting elected
I'm not totally seeing the difference from personality there - it might not be personality in the soundbite and celebrity sense, but it's still personality, which I find interesting.
Its about having politicians who tell the truth and sound like they are telling the truth
What's that got to do with Corbyn? And remember the success of the SNP?*
and who sound like they believe in something other than just getting elected
Ok, now I see, sorry. As you were.
* interesting to watch how dear Nicola plaid the 50p tax rate nonsense. In direct contrast to both Corbyn and Smith!!
What do voters want? Damn, did it again. they don't matter do they 😀
Sturgeon and Davidson are leaders. They both proclaim a positive vision. they both say what they believe not what they think the voters want to hear. They both tell the truth from their viewpoint.
As a result of this they are well liked and respected and in the case of the SNP have a share of the vote and confidence ratings not seen at Westminster since before WW2, in the case of the torys have increased their vote significantly
Look how these two were seen by the English Electorate following the various TV debates when they both got some UK wide airtime
There is a huge appetite for politicians like them
Corbyn is the only Westminster politician that does this.
Sturgeon and Davidson are leaders.
True
They both proclaim a positive vision. they both say what they believe not what they think the voters want to hear.
did you read the book of dreams?
They both tell the truth [b]from their viewpoint.[/b]
Ok, I get it now
There is a huge appetite for politicians like them
Quite, they are OUR servants and representatives after all
Corbyn is the only Westminster politician that does this.
😀 😀
[quote=tjagain ]There is a huge appetite for politicians like them
It's an interesting trick, one you wonder why more don't do if it's such an electoral advantage...
Because they are stuck in a westminster / right wing newspaper bubble and have no understanding of what goes on outside this.
If labour could unearth a figure like either of them then it would be hugely to their advantage. However to do so requires the PLP to accept that they have been wrong for years and have wasted their political careers heading in the wrong direction
BTW - THM - no point in replying to my posts. I don't see yours.
How do you know I posted then - or is that a Corbynesque bit of truth?
Because they are stuck in a westminster / right wing newspaper bubble and have no understanding of what goes on outside this.
I am sure that the Beast of Bolsover and your man Angus would be most upset to be included in this sample.
More 😀
[quote=tjagain ]
BTW - THM - no point in replying to my posts. I don't see yours.
It's OK, he didn't respond to your post.
We all know a Labour Government will be debt ridden
[url= http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2016/03/13/the-conservatives-have-been-the-biggest-borrowers-over-the-last-70-years/ ]Tory debt grater than Labour debt over 70 years[/url]
"Tory debt grater than Labour debt over 70 years"
So the Tories spend more on public services than Labour.
Well that's one possible reason for public debt.
"We all know a Labour Government will be debt ridden"
Wow..not only can you predict the future you can also mind read the population. I'm impressed...
[url= https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/aug/07/my-jeremy-corbyn-tattoo-i-dont-take-what-i-put-on-my-body-too-seriously ]Fess up .... which one of you is it then?[/url]
😀
Me.
Knew it!!!
Puts my Arthur Scargill one to shame
🙂
Its about having politicians who tell the truth and sound like they are telling the truth and who sound like they believe in something other than just getting elected
So you're saying that Jezza is like Nigel Farage?
More like Trump.
binners - Member
Knew it!!!Puts my [s]Arthur Scargill[/s] Margaret Thatcher one to shame
Admit in, you red Tory scum traitor!
😉
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37009871?ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbc_breaking&ns_source=twitter&ns_linkname=news_central ]It gets more interesting.[/url]. Looks like the new members have won their case.
But it will be appealed, can't have this democracy rubbish interfering in the tidy running of the party, or sticking to the terms of selling memberships. 🙂
It gets more interesting.. Looks like the new members have won their case.
The party really needs to leave the Machiavellan stuff the Tories - they're so much better at it.
I think there might be a misunderstanding of just how serious the situation is for New Labour.
For 20 years through the systematic eradication of inner-party democracy, and the unassailable supremacy of the Leader through patronism and cronyism, the New Labour clique were able to unquestionably totally control the party.
Then in a moment of unguarded stupidity, reflecting just how disconnected and out of touch with their own party they were, the New Labour clique threw it all away by leaving the door open for Jeremy Corbyn.
Submerged in their arrogance and own self-importance they believed that Corbyn would be nothing more than an amusing side issue.
Remember, these people who would have you believe that they understand the electorate don't even understand their own party.
Today they have lost not only control of the leadership but control of the whole party with no realistic chances of winning back control.
What was once a small narrow and easy to control party has over a period of a year grown into a monster over which they have no control at all.
The situation couldn't possibly be more desperate for them, so it should hardly come as a surprise if they resort to desperate measures.
And bearing in mind of their aversion to inner-party democracy over the last 20 years it can only be expected that the small New Labour clique will, with help from their friends in the media, attack the very basis of the democratic processes.
Well said Ernie. For me as well its the rewriting of history ie the myth that Blair made them electable. Blair stood on a platform and with policies put in place by smith and kinnock. They made the party electable. Also the tories in 97 where so in disarray that a labour victory was inevitable. Labours share of the vote fell consistently under Blair.
Trouble is the new labour lot have to admit that they have wasted the last 10 years to be able to understand they are the problem. Not corbyn and the larger party.
If the PLP had got behind Corbyn from the start they would be in a much better position now.
The cuckoo school of revisionism is alive and kicking I see. Bravo!
Onwards to glorious electoral armageddon comrades!!!! As we celebrate the routing of the enemies of the working man... those bastard Blairites!! And join us as we raise the red flag, and sing together as we usher in a golden new year socialist dawn.... 20 years -minimum - of totally unopposed Tory rule!!!
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Hey Ernie... did the memo reach the bunker? I doubt it. I know they've bigger fish to fry than whats going on in the real world. But Theresa is bringing back grammar schools.
Yeah... I know.... you'd think the leader of the labour party might have something to say about it. Apparently not. Still... maybe once they're back, at least Comrade Abbott won't have to get her kids privately educated next time?
Every cloud eh?
I think there might be a misunderstanding of just how serious the situation is for [s]New[/s] Labour.
All that talent and we are left with either Corbyn or Smith to lead HM Opposition. A very serious situation indeed. Still fail to learn the lessons of history.....
So I'm probably getting a vote after all? Excellent news.
<Looks at candidate list, shakes head sadly, walks away>
For 20 years through the systematic eradication of inner-party democracy, and the unassailable supremacy of the Leader through patronism and cronyism, the New Labour clique were able to unquestionably totally control the party.
I find this a remarkable claim
The electoral college was only introduced in 1983 - prior to this the leadership of the Labour Party was [b]entirely[/b] a matter for the PLP
Yet you are claiming that the replacement of that system was an eradication of democracy 😯
Yeah... I know.... you'd think the leader of the labour party might have something to say about it. Apparently not. Still... maybe once they're back, at least Comrade Abbott won't have to get her kids privately educated next time?
Or Stephen Kinnock - who "spoke out" during the run up to the last election to deny his daughter had attended a £29K a year private school in Denmark but apparently forgot that his daughter was at that point attending a private sixth form college in South Wales.
It's surprising that many of the Labour MPs who are so passionate that every child should attend a non selective state school are the first to make the decision to send their own kids to private schools.
The electoral college was only introduced in 1983
33 years ago. Hardly a recent development.
Binners - thing is the labour party were becoming unelectable anyway as they slowly got further and further right and forgot their roots as they are so immersed in the westminster bubble.
Remeber they lost Scotland [u]before[/u] Corbyns election
Whilst Corbyn may not be the most exciting leader he has genuine strong points the labour party could build on and perhaps regain some of the ground they had lost. Under any of the apparatchiks like Eagle or Smith they have no chance at all of regaining ground in Scotland. I might vote for a corbyn labour party - infact I probably would. I would never vote for one under Eagle, Smith or Benn the younger. Far too right wing and tainted.
33 years ago. Hardly a recent development.
How many times has the system changed since then?
Remeber they lost Scotland before Corbyns election
Yes, but they lost it under (and I quote) "the most left wing labour leader since Michael Foot" As Miliband was being flaunted at the time.
The problem is, that theres a significant vocal minority of the electorate for whom [i]anything[/i] you did would never be left wing enough. If there was an election next week and Labour lost a hundred seats, they would still be saying that it was because Corbyn was not left wing enough.
RW, LW, RW, LW - the same old tired and incorrect narrative - unless you are a member of "New Cuckoos"
Wings of either variety has SFA to do with why Labour lost the last election. The fact that the current shambles is being fought of this, the wrong ground, just shows what an almighty mess HM Opposition is in.
A pathetic sight in the true sense of the word. Still the trends have been a long time in the making
1945 share of the vote: Labour 48%, Tories 40%, combined 88%
2015: Labour 30%, Tories 37%, combined 77%. Hmmm.....
Will the party ever move on?
The problem is, that theres a significant vocal minority of the electorate for whom anything you did would never be left wing enough. If there was an election next week and Labour lost a hundred seats, they would still be saying that it was because Corbyn was not left wing enough.
Dont deny them there moment of nostalgic fun. Who knows if the protest vote is strong enough it may even last a while?
Binners - thing is the labour party were becoming unelectable anyway as they slowly got further and further right and forgot their roots as they are so immersed in the westminster bubble.
At the last election, the Tory party got itself a thumping great commons majority of 12. Even Dave looked surprised. Despite the losses of all their Scottish seats.
Now?
If there were a general election tomorrow, with Corbyn at the helm, I'd put my house on the labour party going down to the heaviest defeat in its entire history. It would be decimated. Probably finished for ever. It'd be worse than the 80's. And pretty much all the polling backs this up. 30% of lifelong labour voters say they'd rather vote for Theresa May than Corbyn FFS! Thats some going in 12 months. Go Jezza!!
So hopeless is he, that he's actually managed to make Millibean look like an electoral heavyweight and political big hitter
But then, as has been pointed out repeatedly, by lots of people on this thread, Corbyn has no interest in winning elections. As long as he gets however many 'likes' from his 6th form followers on Friendface, alls at one with the world. He'll get to wave his placards, chant his slogans (Free Nelson Mandella?), plot against his perceived enemies (everyone?) in the irrelevant left wing echo chamber (unilateral nuclear disarmament anyone?) him and MacDonnell inhabit
Meanwhile ... in the grown up world... the Tories get to do what they like, totally and utterly unopposed
But we knew Milliband was not a leftie in any form and also he was seen as a policy wonk not a genuine person. He did what the PLP seem to think necessary - follow public opinion rather than lead it.
Electoral success in Scotland has gone to parties led by people who have genuine beliefs and ideas they are prepared to put before the electorate and argue for rather than trying to be all things to all people. Hence the success of the SNP the greeens and the Tories and the demise of labour and the lib dems
Binners - its not about being elected. C'mon get with the game. This is about [s]opportunitism[/s] conviction, [s]bullying[/s] democracy and [s]sexism/racism/anti-semitism[/s] a gentler new form of politics. Votes don't matter...
Rejoice instead - its a brave new world!
Electoral success in Scotland has gone to parties led by people who have genuine beliefs and ideas they are prepared to put before the electorate and argue for rather than trying to be all things to all people.
Yeah... people with genuine beliefs that aren't just utterly bloody bonkers, and are actually relevant to voters real lives (outside the common room). The only thing I've seen Corbyn bang on about with any conviction is unilateral nuclear disarmament.
An issue right at the forefront of voters concerns.
The early 1980's phoned. They want their manifesto back
I simply disagree with you Binners - its the infighting that has led to this not Corbyn. If the PLP did not go around saying how useless he is then he would not be perceived as useless. The PLP have given the tabloids the ammunition to attack Corbyn. The PLP are so divorced from reality its no longer funny. They simply do not know what resonates with the public at large and its the infighting that has destroyed the electability not Corbyn. You do know all these resignations from the front bench were co ordinated by alistair Campbell don't you. It was not spontaneous - its was carefully planned to do Corbyn as much damage as possible and without a care for how much damage it did to the party.
I do think it will be a very hard road back for Corbyn as he has such enemies amongst the party - because he shows them up as wrong. What with his £8 expenses claims etc
I know quite a few folk who stopped voting labour under Blair and Milliband and who have been tempted back under Corbyn.
If the PLP did not go around saying how useless he is then he would not be perceived as useless.
He would, you know. He's absolutely hopeless. Stating this is just pointing out the obvious. Anyone with the slightest bit of political nouse can see this, its so glaringly obvious. He's absolutely politically clueless! Dave ran rings round him. Theresa May casually swotted him to one side. He just cuts a ridiculous figure, who commands zero respect. He's managed to make his predecessor look like a towering political colossus, so utterly ineffectual has he been
He's just really, really crap at politics. Which is a bit of a problem if you're a politician. Its like me becoming a ballroom dancer, then moaning that everyones being horrid to me by saying that I'm crap at it.
You do know all these resignations from the front bench were co ordinated by alistair Campbell don't you. It was not spontaneous - its was carefully planned to do Corbyn as much damage as possible and without a care for how much damage it did to the party.
you see... its just that kind of paranoid, delusional bunker-mentality cobblers that makes him look like a laughing stock to the electorate. The truth of the matter is that he's a comically bad leader of the opposition. The PLP can see this. But his evangelists will blame everyone and everything, rather than accept this simple truism
I know quite a few folk who stopped voting labour under Blair and Milliband and who have been tempted back under Corbyn.
Good for them. Unfortunately for every one of them, there are about 250,000 people who regard Corbyn as about as credible a PM as George Galloway.
'Quite a few' people don't win you general elections
Though I'm sure our resident Marxist will be along shortly to tell us about the extra seats on the parish council labour now have. Because we all know that where the real power lies in modern Britain
