I think its part bullying, part wanting a scalp, and since PLP coup attempt just enjoying the tittle tattle.
The right wing press woul also prefer a right wing (comparatively) Labour Party.
Surely if your natural inclination is towards the Conservatives, then you'll really want Labour to fail? If so, if you really thought he was a busted flush, you'd leave him be and let Labour hang themselves?It just seems an odd tactic to adopt.
You know when you drive along the motorway and see the aftermath of a huge pile-up on the other side of the barrier? And you know that looking at it is pointless, and there's nothing you can do to help, but you can't stop yourself looking at all the wrecked cars?
Well it's like that.
See if Corbyn is unelectable, an anachronism, why does the right-wing press spend so much time attacking him? Whats the value to them in doing this?
it's the Trump factor, the risk he might actually get elected
Surely if your natural inclination is towards the Conservatives, then you'll really want Labour to fail? If so, if you really thought he was a busted flush, you'd leave him be and let Labour hang themselves?
because people rarely agree with an entire manifesto, challenge also improves and knocks the rough edges of some policies, and as always there is the revelation that one of the ideas is a bit pants
It just seems an odd tactic to adopt.
a lot of people are not tribal about politics, it's about competence, having two strong options is better than a weak and a strong as the strong option just gets weaker as they get lazy
Thoughts?
@bigndaft...imo I think alot of people feel threatened by JC's ideas...he's basically saying everything is unequal and he'll redistribute power/resources/wealth etc. Therefore those who benefit the most from our current setup will have to give up some of their 'pie' to others...how many people do you know who'd want to do that? We live in a society that subscribes to individualism so people won't think it's fair...
We live in a society that subscribes to individualism so people won't think it's fair...
Might be fair enough redistributing it amongst people that put the same amount of graft/effort/hours in but most people see that it's not the case.
A lot of people that earn the good money have put a lot of investment into themselves and work long hours.
My boss at work is Scottish, works in London, and thinks it amusing when he goes back up to Glasgow and sees people moaning about Londoners in the finance industry earning much more, before they pack up at 5 to go down the leisure club for a game of squash.
Turnerguy has pointed out the fundamental flaw in re distribution of wealth, as a country we no longer prescribe to the greater good approach. As I have pointed out elsewhere in this forum we do have a structure (education, tax system, legal system, markets) that allow people if they want to to progress in life.
You know when you drive along the motorway and see the aftermath of a huge pile-up
Looks more like a bunch of circus clowns having a punch up.
Good for checking in on it occasionally for a laugh.
Looks more like a bunch of circus clowns having a punch up.
#boxoffice
I presume people have seen the video of Corbyn 'mis-remembering' his call for Article 50 to be invoked immediately:
https://twitter.com/owensmith2016/status/761476141777559552
TurnerGuy - Member
....My boss at work is Scottish, works in London, and thinks it amusing when he goes back up to Glasgow and sees people moaning about Londoners in the finance industry earning much more, before they pack up at 5 to go down the leisure club for a game of squash.
Poor sod. He's forgotten what life is about.
Work is an enabler, not the purpose of life.
Epicyclo I think that work has to be more than an enabler otherwise life is going to be miserable as a large portion of life is at work
oldmanmtb - Member
Epicyclo I think that work has to be more than an enabler otherwise life is going to be miserable as a large portion of life is at work
The trick is to find something you like doing, then it isn't in the same category as work, but the reality for most people is that work is something they have to do. So why do more of it that you need to?
Best of all is be your own boss IMO.
Debate: I don't watch any of these but in responce to the point above about Owen's policies not appealing to swing voters. My point would be in the debate he is not trying to, he needs to win amongst fhe "supporters" in this round. Later on the Labour party will determine policy.
Press: I don't see the rightwing press (eg Telegragph) doing much attacking of Corbyn, the Tories neither. It suits thrm to have him there. Centre (BBC) and left (Guardian) do far more as they care more about Labour's electoral success.
Wealth redistribution is fataly flawed, why work hard in order to give that money to someone else, why bother if you are going to receive "free money". You would very quickly find if you try such a pokicy the wealth wouod move where you cannot get it and productivity/wealth creation would nosedive. Unless you earn £38k pa you are receiving more than you are putting in, thats a corm of wealth redistribution.
Binners it seems winning elections / referendums is quite simple then, if only Labour could come up with a credible slogan and a half decent campaign team. They should be rallying around people like Gisela Stuart, she was outstanding.
Selective memory. Corbyn has shown himself to be a very shifty operator over the past 9 months on a range of topics from kinder gentler politics to the Referendum and the EU. His about face on nominations to the Lords and the circumstances surrounding his nomination incouding not discussing it with Tom Watson show the sort of person he really is
Epic. Work is an enabler, it enables you to live to travel to enjoy a comfortable retirement. Work also pays for the state infrastructure. More salary equals more money for all these things
Press: I don't see the rightwing press (eg Telegragph) doing much attacking of Corbyn,
Jambas, you are kidding right? Lets look at the month of August alone
Mon1: Corbyn scared of TV debate with rival for leadership
Tues 2: Corbyn supporters accused of planning 'show trial" for critic Eagle
Wednesday 3: Eagle says Corbyn's silence over bullies has led to crisis
Thursday 4: ok less specific but. Labour Party infected by virus of anti-semitism
Friday 5: Corbyn should look to own over lack of decorum...Fury over peerage for Chakrabati
Saturday 6: Chakrabati kept Corbyn's Hamas comment from her report....Labour leader swots up on disaster fallout during summer break
I subscribe for the crossword and the sport and only skim the "news" (eg, for Brexit laughs etc) but pretty clear that there are daily attacks on Corbyn. I will leave others to decide if they are justified or not, but the Telegraph are in overdrive at the moment.
Has this moved on in the 2 weeks I"ve been away? Thought not.
It seems to me that if the likes of Yvette Cooper et al are supporting a candidate who is unambiguously calling for an an end to austerity, raising taxes on the wealthy elite, enshrining workers rights and strengthening trade unions, then the Corbyn experiment has been a raging success. Of course there's a huge question over whether Smith and those supporting him are sincere in their dramatic conversion to progressive policies. The members will need a lot more convincing that these policies won't be instantly forgotten the minute Corbyn is out of the picture.
Redistribution is not about some people working harder than others to then have to give it to 'lazy' people...very telling that that's s what people define it as...
It seems to me that if the likes of Yvette Cooper et al are supporting a candidate who is unambiguously calling for an an end to austerity, raising taxes on the wealthy elite, enshrining workers rights and strengthening trade unions, then the Corbyn experiment has been a raging success.
Only if you measure success as being unelectable. 🙂
As[/b] I have pointed out elsewhere in this forum we do have a structure (education, tax system, legal system, markets) that allow people if they want to to progress in life[b]
😀
5thElefant - MemberOnly if you measure success as being unelectable.
A great comment from Tory La-La Land, which of course completely ignores the rather inconvenient truth that under Corbyn Labour has won every single election ........ by-elections, mayoral elections, local elections.
5thElefant - Member
Only if you measure success as being unelectable.
This meme keep cropping up as if it is an irrefutable truth.
But who is promoting it? The Blairite faction and the right wing media. Not exactly exemplars of truth.
It sounds very much like the SNP are unelectable crap we used to hear up here while that party's membership continued to rise steadily.
It's not a truth, it's a hope of the desperate has-been Blairites and of the enemies of Labour, and their hope is that if they keep repeating it then it will be true.
I say, let's wait and see.
"But who is promoting it? The Blairite faction and the right wing media. Not exactly exemplars of truth."
So the MPs are pretending their own party leader is unelectable when really they know his remaining in place is going to make it more likely they win their seats. Interesting theory.
outofbreath - Member
...So the MPs are pretending their own party leader is unelectable when really they know his remaining in place is going to make it more likely they win their seats. Interesting theory.
They know they have little chance of being reselected. The impression I get is that they are fighting for their jobs using every dirty trick in the book and don't give a stuff about the party.
As I said, wait and see.
"They know they have little chance of being reselected. The impression I get is that they are fighting for their jobs using every dirty trick in the book and don't give a stuff about the party."
So they would have been deselected even if they'd got behind JC.
I thought the argument to support them trying to oust a leader who was going to help them retain seats was going to be that out of principle they wanted to take JC down even at the cost of their own political careers.
They want JC out because they know they'll be wiped out with him as leader at the next general election.
IMO of course, I'm quite happy to "wait and see" 🙂
A great comment from Tory La-La Land
I haven't voted in 30 years. I'm one of the disengaged millions. I'll be voting tory next time though (or plaid cymru). You can attribute that to JC.
"They want JC out because they know they'll be wiped out with him as leader at the next general election."
Occam's razor would certainly suggest that.
Oh the irony of threating Labour MPs with deselection if they don't support their Leader. Corbyn really does say one thing but do another
Oh the irony of threating Labour MPs with deselection if they don't support their Leader. Corbyn really does say one thing but do another
Labour MPs are not being threaten with deselection for not supporting their leader.
There is however a call that all Labour prospective parliamentary candidates face a re-selection process. That includes Corbyn himself. It is patently obvious that if an individual wishes to be the official candidate for their constituency party then they should be selected by their constituency party.
Obviously you would prefer that people like Rupert Murdoch decides who the Labour candidates should be in elections. Oh the irony, as you say.
So the MPs are pretending their own party leader is unelectable when really they know his remaining in place is going to make it more likely they win their seats. Interesting theory.
They have chosen Owen Smith to replace Corbyn, what more proof do you want ffs?
And what's with this constant nonsense about Corbyn being "unelectable" ?
A couple of months ago 1,326 Labour councillors were elected, compared to 842 Tory councillors, the Tories lost control of 1 council and Labour didn't lose control of any councils.
So what happened ? Why did voters elect 1,326 Labour councillors ...... hadn't they heard that Corbyn/Labour is "unelectable" ? I can't see how, I hear that totally meaningless term used all the time.
Stop living in fantasy land. The PLP don't want Corbyn as leader and they even else want him to win elections. Why? Because they don't want Labour to be a radical alternative to the Tories, or held accountable for failing to provide real opposition to the Tories - they would rather abstain ffs.
Owen Smith claims to be as radical and as left-wing as Corbyn, if not more so, but with a slick soundbite manufactured career politician presentation that will appeal to voters. Everyone knows that is bollox, which is precisely why the PLP are supporting him - because he is a liar, just like they are.
Even his career politician presentation is shite - talking about "a socialist revolution" isn't going to win a landslide victory for Labour. Nor are all his gaffes, including the one at the launch of his leadership campaign which forced him to later backtrack and apologize.
Owen Smith is a hopelessly useless politician, his great appeal is that with him as leader Labour will do absolutely nothing - even if they win elections.
His other great appeal is that even though it is a totally foregone conclusion that he will not win the Labour leadership - no one in their right mind thinks he will, by mounting a completely futile leadership challenge he is very seriously damaging Corbyn's Labour Party, which is now the largest political party in Europe.
In fact it has now become more than just political party - it's also becoming a growing grassroots movement. Which by definition means drawing power away from career politicians and to the people.
And what's with this constant nonsense about Corbyn being "unelectable" ?A couple of months ago 1,326 Labour councillors were elected, compared to 842 Tory councillors, the Tories lost control of 1 council and Labour didn't lose control of any councils.
You're absolutely right - Jezza did nearly as well as Ed Miliband did in 2012.
Oh...
So you have your very own definition of what "unelectable" means ?
Unelectable apparently means winning 50% more seats and councils than the Tories, according to ninfan.
[IMG] 
[/IMG]
How did that work out Ernie? 😆
I've no idea whether or not he is unelectable, but surely the question is whether he is electable as leader of the party in a GE. The election of Labour councillors, where people really aren't voting for the Labour leader doesn't seem like incredibly good evidence either way - I certainly don't vote for my local councillor based upon who the leader of his party is*, and I suspect I'm not alone. Of course local election results provide some evidence (maybe the best we have?) of how support for parties is shifting, but given the current shift in politics it's tricky to use them as hard evidence.
ISTM that a comparison with the elections in 2012 is actually a reasonable one - you'd think that if Labour are going to win the GE they should be doing rather better than under a leader who the hard evidence shows was unelectable.
* I may be slightly more unusual in that I don't care greatly what party they're standing for - I'd even vote for my current councillors if they stood for UKIP, though I suppose one of the reasons I vote for them is that given their values they wouldn't do that.
ninfan - MemberHow did that work out Ernie? 😆
Yes it's hilariously funny. Almost as funny as the Daily Telegraph's predictions that if Labour polled equal to the Tories in the local elections they would lose 120 seats, if they polled 2 points behind the Tories they would lose 170 seats, and if they polled 4 points behind the Tories they would lose 220 seats :
[img] 
[/img]
As it turns out they lost 18 seats, so polled more than the Tories. Why didn't the Tories win the local elections btw? If winning makes you "unelectable" then presumably not winning makes you worse than unelectable.
And the Tories did even worse in the London Assembly elections - they received 29% of the vote whilst Labour received 40% of the vote. The Tories couldn't even beat "unelectable" Labour in the nation's capital. That's despite the fact that there had been a Tory mayor for the previous 8 years. Or perhaps because there had been a Tory mayor for the last 8 years?
I don't know who will win the next general election, but I do know that the term "unelectable" is meaningless.
Stop living in fantasy land.
A good summary of the whole Labour leader debate.
The PLP don't want Corbyn as leader and they even else want him to win elections. Why? Because there is little evidence that voters want a radical alternative to the Tories/anyone
FTFY
Ok it's fun for the Croydonistas to have their bit of time in the sun, but after that it's time for the serious stuff.
Labour did not lose the last election because they were not radical or left wing enough. We don't do radical politics in the uk, heck we even had an Austerity Chancellor (sic) in charge of one of the loosest fiscal policies in the developed world. And now? The new PM is parking her bus neatly in the middle parking slot, just where the voters are, not shifting the Toires to the right as some would have us believe. Meanwhile we have months of Momentum masturbation ahead while the rest of the world gets on with the challenges of dealing with the folly of Brexit.
It's all rather sad and pathetic.
I repeat what I have always thought about Corbyn and his team. They neither care or want to be in power. Far easier to be in opposition constantly pushing a dated ideology that they will never have to put into practice. Meanwhile the Tories will carry on unopposed without a strong opposition bringing them to account. It's all very sad. We could really do with a new Liberal party rising from the ashes of their catastrophic previous campaigns and returning to their core beliefs to shake things up a bit. At the moment I'd vote for them rather than the current shower we have.
teamhurtmore - Memberthere is little evidence that voters want a radical alternative to the Tories/anyone
Says the geezer who kept on banging about the supposedly UKIP threat.
Why didn't the Tories win the local elections then ?
teamhurtmore - MemberMeanwhile we have months of Momentum masturbation ahead while the rest of the world gets on with the challenges of dealing with the folly of Brexit.
Oh how I've missed your patronising contributions. Incidentally that comment undermines your previous point, what a pity that you are not as clever as you smugly imagine that you are.
So anyway, how are you and the rest of the world been "getting on with the challenges of dealing with the folly of Brexit" ? Tell us what you have been up to, who have you been having lunch with recently - you like to tell us that.
Ernie how are we going to pay for JCs brave new nationalised world? We can't just borrow endless billions and raising taxes on individuals/companies will simply lead to less investment and more tax avoidance hence increased unemployment. In a general election the Tories will tear this approach to bits and motivate the middle ground (bear in mind a GE is first past the post not a referendum) that JC is going to take their money and **** up their asset (house pension) value - the statistic you point out time and time again about labour being the largest political party in Europe means nothing (if Facebook announced it was a political party almost) 500k people do not win an election in which 25 million people will probably vote - I don't think momentum realise how much this is pissing off old school labour voters (not Blairites) it's not dissimilar to republicans voting against Trump. The world has changed since 1979 the reality is the vast majority of people in the UK are reasonably well off including those on benefits and yes I understand the reality of food banks and homelessness but as I have stated before there is opportunity/education/work prospects in he UK that France/Spain/Italy simply does not have. To be blunt I think the UK currently offers most people a way to improve their lives - it's not perfect by any stretch (it was better before Brexit but heh hoh)
[url= https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/aug/05/corbyn-cant-dismiss-mps-brexit-centre-stage ]good article by Johnathon Freedland in yesterdays Guardian[/url]
Corbyn has no interest in winning elections. It's not the point at all. His policies (such as they are) mirror his own contempt for Parliamentary democracy. He's basically living out a sixth formers dream of being some kind of socialist revolutionary. It's tragic
Oh how I've missed your patronising contributions. Incidentally that comment undermines your previous point, what a pity that you are not as clever as you smugly imagine that you are.
Oh, Momentum/Croydonistas can hand it out, but..... 😀
So anyway, how are you and the rest of the world been "getting on with the challenges of dealing with the folly of Brexit" ? Tell us what you have been up to, who have you been having lunch with recently - you like to tell us that.
With difficulty. It's self-inflicted harm that has been negative for me. Several delayed opportunities due to the confusion/uncertainty
Been swimming with sharks rather than lunching - so no stories I am afraid. Enjoyed reading Varoufakis two latest books at least a LW who can argue properly and with rigour.
Jambas - after our last exchange, I smiled to see Jezza writing in the Torygraph today. Pleading for the Tory vote. I suspect that the readership would have found Booker's comments on the NHS more palatable!!
From Twitter
Jeremy Corbyn MP
@jeremycorbynIf you don't think of Labour [b]as your natural political home.[/b]..it may be time to think again telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08/0… pic.twitter.com/N0WrjHpd1F
View photo ·
Delicious choice of words there!! What brand of starch is Jezza promoting I wonder?
Just wasted 3 mins reading that Corbyn piece. Nationalised railways will be a strike filled disaster. We all know a Labour Government will be debt ridden with exploding "wealth redistribution" nonsense. No a Corbyn inspired Labour party (including one not lead by him) is not for me.
Jezza is absolutely all over social media, telling all Union members they can register to vote (for him, obvs) in the upcoming leadership election.
If he put half as much effort into .... oh I don't know.... taking on the Tories, campaigning to stay in the EU maybe... as he did promoting the cult of the Glorious Leader, he might actually be doing a half decent job as leader of the opposition.
But priorities are priorities
[quote=binners ]Jezza is absolutely all over social media, telling all Union members they can register to vote (for him, obvs) in the upcoming leadership election.
If he put half as much effort into .... oh I don't know.... taking on the Tories, campaigning to stay in the EU maybe... as he did promoting the cult of the Glorious Leader, he might actually be doing a half decent job as leader of the opposition.
But priorities are priorities
If only he didn't have a needless leadership election to contest eh?
