Jeremy Corbyn

Utilities, not really sure, but don't really care if my electricity keeps coming without getting more expensive.
Mail, didn't really notice when it was privatised, so doubt i'd notice the change back either.
Rail, can't get any worse so nothing to lose.

Mail, didn't really notice when it was privatised, so doubt i'd notice the change back either.
Rail, can't get any worse so nothing to lose.

So there were never morning and afternoon post deliveries where you live, or for that matter, post offices? Or sorting /collecting offices for missed mail in multiple handy local locations?

Nationalisation the great leap backwards comrades.

Yes agree rail is a bit of a mess, but that's successive governments at fault for not doing their bit to setup and maintain proper management of the private companies, if they can't get the strategic bit right then why people expect them to get operations right as well is beyond me. BR was pretty abysmal.

Post office, the world has changed, people don't use the post or post offices to the same extent anymore, we don't need 1930s levels of delivery. Social services the Post Offices provide can be and have been incorporated into other public offices. Why we should be supporting mom and pop operations who are clearly uneconomic and have no willingness to change was unfathomable. Couple that with arcane working practices within the Post Office, back to union control, no thanks

Utilities, privatisation started huge investment in infrastructure, the water industry in particular made great strides in cleaning up waste water rather than dumping raw sewage deliberately into rivers and seas, after decades of public ownership where Victoriana practices had been maintained. Do you think we'do have they levels of renewables if the government had been in charge, new technology, doing things differently, not really a trait of any government. Again if anything is wrong it's the government oversight.

In theory Nationalisation should give us better services at cheaper prices as the providers only have to concentrate on the service and don't need to make a profit. In reality we get vested interests in the unions and moribund management who waste vast sums of money, bit like councils still are today.

Jezzas true colours and total detachment from what history has taught us clear as day.

The Trident commitment must have stung a bit though.

Oh well might as well recycle it now, total waste of paper.

Our rail is already nationalised. It's just other nations reaping the rewards.

i'll summarise: Marxism - great idea if it wasn't for those pesky humans.i'll summarise: Marxism - great idea if it wasn't for those pesky humans.

Capitalism, bad idea made even worse by the pesky greedy humans.

And you say it is better, because its based on a principle that actually works (albeit with flaws). How do you know a more Marxist approach wouldn't work (albeit with flaws) ?

And as molgrips has said, you don't take the whole thing letter by letter but you use the basis of it.

Admittedly that is not going to be easy in a country/world where the greed of the few has taken us a long way down a capitalist path. It is clearly a massive change for people to want to work because they see the need for it as part of their society so everyone can benefit from each other and not have consumerism as the be all and end all but it is not a coincidence that where there is more equality/fairness people are happier and more content.

Our rail is already nationalised. It's just other nations reaping the rewards.

Where I live near the German/Dutch border, we're absolutely flooded with brand new trains, new track, new stations and even new pedestrian bridges over the tracks. Where's this money all coming from?

Yes agree rail is a bit of a mess, but

Yeah but...

I fancy a last minute trip to Edinburgh this weekend...I live in Bristol. I think I'll let the train take the strain...it'll only cost me around £400.

I fancy a last minute trip to Paris this weekend...I live in Lyon. At £98, the train is a no-brainer. Yay SNCF.

I'd love to do a bit of sight-seeing in Hamburg this weekend. I live in Stuttgart. Oh, look, I can do that for just over €210. Yay Deutsche Bahn (part privately owned, so I'm sure that's what's driving the price down isn't it?).

Yeah, but...

but that's successive governments at fault for not doing their bit to setup and maintain proper management of the private companies,

Yeah, but...

Successive governments promised us that it would be a land of milk and honey, travelling around in beautiful, un-crowded trains as competition, share prices and free markets drove the service to improve beyond the wildest of expectations. And here we are...what was it Branson said?

Well, before I buy my ticket to Edinburgh this weekend, I'll try seven different ticketing sites just in case the ones that promise me they'll find the cheapest one isn't really telling the truth.

Better check that any of the companies I need to use aren't having a strike again this weekend.

Capitalism would work a lot better if big business/media attempting to influence/and allowing the influence of political decisions carried a custodial sentence and that sentence was enforced.

So lets assume that 20% of the population just really can't be arsed with working, but thats all good, bacause its societies job to provide for us because they all REALLY like working. How long do you suppose before the other 80% get bitter about the 20% of folks watching netflix all day in their underwear? And when the injustice really settles in and more people decide they'll not bother working? What percentage of slackers before the whole thing falls on its head?
And then what? Use the military to compel us to work? At that point the idea has pretty much failed already.

I'm already bitter about people watching Netflix in their pants all day. Lucky barstads. There's no way I'd work for a living if I could get away with it, **** that!

gofasterstripes - Member
Where I live near the German/Dutch border, we're absolutely flooded with brand new trains, new track, new stations and even new pedestrian bridges over the tracks. Where's this money all coming from?

From the profits arriva makes?

We already have nationalised rail and energy providers,
it's just that they are owned by the German, French, Chinese, Dutch people etc etc, their part nationalised companies love our train and utility franchises thanks to the taxpayer subsidies and easy profits (what % of people are on the a lowest energy tarrifs?) back into in their own countries coffers

Seems a very sensible manifesto to me.
🙂

Tick.

Tick

So at least we know what will be in the next Tory election manifesto when it definitely? won't be like the communist labour version from last time.

And certainly not an admission that privatisation of the energy markets has been bad for the consumer !

They nicked most of our best ideas, so yeah, Tick.
I still say Corbyn should defect to us if Labour get bums rush in June

Plenty in there to please most people you would think

from each according to his ability....

A few years ago a survey asked some Americans where that phrase came from, a surprising number thought it was in their own constitution...

I think Nationalisation of critical industries is no bad thing, Power, Water, Rail, should be owned by the people for the benefit of the people (our taxes, and latterly direct debits did, after all, pay for much of it)

An aside regarding fox hunting...

A mate had the dreaded killing of Fowl on the farm, totally wiping out ducks and silky clocks in one night, not eaten just ragged to bits.

So we set a fox trap...

It wasn't a fox we caught doing all the damage.

Badger.

I wonder how many times foxes are blamed for other predators killings?

But its OK, we need to keep fox numbers down and I can't think of a better way of doing it then haring across the country on horseback following a pack of dogs taking them out one at a time 🙄

ulysse - Member
So there were never morning and afternoon post deliveries where you live, or for that matter, post offices? Or sorting /collecting offices for missed mail in multiple handy local locations?

Given how train ticket prices are getting even sillier, I could see re-nationalising the rail franchises as their current contract expire being of benefit to a large number of averagely paid people, who currently pay thousands to commute into London and alike.

From my own limited experiences in recent years, bus ticket prices have come down, I can buy a £5 weekly ticket on the Bluestar 18 to get between home and work (albeit I prefer to cycle again now). Maybe re-nationalising them would at least keep prices in check and encourage more to dump their cars and use them?

Re-nationalising Royal Mail makes sense to me, they are such a unique business in the UK and cannot be fairly compared to other logistic businesses that only deliver parcels. Letter prices especially have got silly since privatisation to appease shareholders, which IMO is only going to further discourage people from using an old-skool technology that surely is going to cease within the next ~10 years. While the CEO is currently earning ~60x the wage of a full-time postie outside London! 😯

In my own Utopian vision, I'd like to see Labour pledge to re-nationalise electricity and perhaps even British Gas, given their profit grabbing. Might be too costly though to buy those back.

Vote for it or not, I think it's amazing that we've got such a detailed and thorough alternative vision of political direction.

I also think a leak is helpful. It is getting way more press than it might have otherwise. Milliband's manifesto was also good, but it was lost in a sea of wanting to sound so middle-of-the-road that nobody could see it.

The last time I read something as hopeful was the Green manifesto in 2010. I never thought I'd see it from a mainstream party.

I for one will use my completely useless vote in a safe tory seat full of millionaires to give it my full approval.

I for one will use my completely useless vote in a safe tory seat full of millionaires to give it my full approval.

Exactly what I will be doing. Although the vote will be pointless the overall number counts for something (or should)

A draft of Labour's 51-page general election manifesto has been leaked. Here are some of its key policies.
[b]Renationalisation[/b]

Bring the railways back into public ownership as franchises expire and repeal the Railways Act 1993 which privatised the network
Freeze passenger rail fares, free wi-fi across the network, an end to driver-only operation of trains and improved accessibility for disabled people
Reverse the privatisation of Royal Mail "at the earliest opportunity"
Create at least one publicly-owned energy company in every region of the UK, with public control of the transmission and distribution grids
Repeal the Health and Social Care Act 2012 - which restructured the NHS - and "reverse privatisation" of the health service

[b]Defence
[/b]
Support the renewal of the Trident submarine system
Work with international partners and the UN on multilateral disarmament "to create a nuclear-free world"
Commit to the Nato benchmark of spending at least 2% of GDP on defence
Insulate the homes of disabled veterans for free

[b]Migration[/b]

Labour believes in the "reasonable management of migration" but "will not make false promises on immigration numbers"
Replace income thresholds for bringing family members to the UK with "an obligation to survive without recourse to public funds"
Uphold responsibilities under the Refugee Convention and offer a safe haven to those fleeing from persecution and war
Labour's draft election manifesto leaked
Election latest: Reaction to leak

[b]Brexit[/b]

Accept the EU referendum result and "build a close new relationship with the EU" prioritising jobs and and workers' rights
Guarantee the rights of EU nationals living in the UK and work to "secure reciprocal rights" for UK citizens elsewhere in the EU
A "meaningful" role for Parliament throughout Brexit negotiations
Negotiating priorities to have "a strong emphasis on retaining the benefits of the single market and the customs union"
Negotiate transitional arrangements "to avoid a cliff-edge for the UK economy" if no deal is reached
Keep EU-derived laws on workers' rights, equality, consumer rights and environmental protections

[b]Workers' rights[/b]

A 20-point plan for security and equality at work, including an end to zero-hours contracts and equal rights for employees
Repeal the Trade Union Act and roll out sectoral collective bargaining, whereby industries can negotiate agreement as a whole
End the public sector pay cap.
Guarantee trade unions a right to access workplaces
Enforce all workers' rights to trade union representation at work
Use public spending power to drive up standards, including only awarding public contracts to companies which recognise trade unions
Shifting the "burden of proof" in the so-called "gig economy" so that the law assumes a worker is an employee unless the employer can prove otherwise

[b]Education[/b]

Reintroduce maintenance grants for university students and abolish university tuition fees
A National Education Service to provide "cradle-to-grave learning that is free at the point of use" from early years to adult education
Reduce class sizes to under 30 for all five, six, and seven-year-olds
Free school meals for all primary school children, paid for by removing the VAT exemption on private school fees

[b]Health and social care[/b]

An extra £6bn annually for the NHS, funded by increasing income tax for the highest 5% of earners and increasing tax on private medical insurance
An Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR) for health to scrutinise spending
An additional £8 billion over the lifetime of the next Parliament for social care
Look into creating a National Care Service for social care "rooted in the traditions of our National Health Service"

[b]Social security and pensions[/b]

An end to benefit sanctions
Scrap the so-called "bedroom tax"
Reinstate housing benefit for under-21s
Guarantee the state pension "triple lock" throughout the next Parliament so that pensions rise by at least inflation, earnings or 2.5% a year, whichever is higher.
The winter fuel allowance and free bus passes guaranteed as universal benefits
A commitment to "protect the pensions of UK citizens living overseas in the EU or further afield"

[b]Energy[/b]

Nuclear power "will continue to be part of the UK energy supply"
A ban on fracking
Introduce an immediate emergency energy price cap to ensure the average dual fuel household energy bill remains below £1,000 per year
Maintaining access to the EU's internal energy market and retaining access to nuclear research programme Euratom will be a priority in Brexit negotiations

[b]Economy[/b]

No rises in income tax for those earning below £80,000 a year on personal National Insurance Contributions and on VAT
A National Investment Bank as part of a plan to provide £250bn of lending power over the next decade for infrastructure
A claim the manifesto commitments are "fully costed" with all current spending paid for out of taxation or redirected revenue stream
The current spending deficit eliminated on "a forward-looking, five-year rolling timescale"

[b]Housing[/b]

At least 100,000 council and housing association homes built a year by the end of the next Parliament
"Thousands more low-cost homes" reserved for first-time buyers
Make new three-year tenancies the norm for private renters, with an inflation cap on rent rises
An additional 4,000 homes reserved for people with a history of rough sleeping

I also think a leak is helpful. It is getting way more press than it might have otherwise.

Very shrewd media management by Seamus, I'd say.

'Leak' happens, lots of publicity. If it goes down well, all good. If it goes down badly, well it was only a draft, nothing like what we're really going to publish, etc.

Blame the leak on one of those evil red Tory scum and move on either way.

Very clever move.

Its funny that people are praising Labour for the shrewd leak, while also wanting a much less cynical politics. Since Blair, we've come to view the people who 'play the game' best as our leaders.

I'd like to think that the leak wasn't from JCs team, but they'll benefit from it anyway.

Some humourous Corbyn bashing on my facebook feed about the manifesto thinking he's mental, from the same brexit voters who want to go back to the good old days.

I'm not that old (mid 30's) but as far as I can tell, Labour seem to be suggesting exactly what they want.

I couldn't do politics, basically you're trying to give people who don't know what they want, what they want.

Part of me wishes Labour would commission a large scale opinion poll to see if people's view on Brexit have changed since last summer, now they have seen some repercussions such as higher prices in the shops.

And if there has been a swing towards remaining in the EU, commit to revoking Article50 in the manifesto.

Very shrewd media management by Seamus, I'd say.

wait a minute I thought all you toryboys were saying labour were clueless and riddled with infighhting

your beloved Diane Abbot could've left her copy at the hairdressers or something ?

Its only a 'good' leak because its got a lot of policies that many voters will like

Blame the leak on one of those evil red Tory scum and move on either way.

Utter nonsense and you know it.
The leak has obviously come from Labour, everyone acknowledges that.

The leak has obviously come from Labour, everyone acknowledges that.

🙂 Thanks, Alex.

And if there has been a swing towards remaining in the EU, commit to revoking Article50 in the manifesto.

but Corbyn really wants out, just check back to all the anti-EU comments he has made in the past

Sorry Flash, missed the red bit!
🙂

Good leak anyway.

Its funny that people are praising Labour for the shrewd leak, while also wanting a much less cynical politics. Since Blair, we've come to view the people who 'play the game' best as our leaders

Almost impossible NOT to be a leak, due to the Labour constitution around manifesto planning.
It's a pretty open process, so it always happens.

Not an issue, really.

his driver has taken the fight to the MSM...............

he's just run over the foot of a BBC cameraman

Interesting that the energy policy isn't to renationalise, but to create a nationalised competitor.
This is a bit like when the Tories claimed that the BBC shouldn't be allowed to have recipes, because it stifles commercial competitors.

I'm still formulating my view on it, but it's a bit of an odd one. Would it be all tax payers subsidising something that they might not use, or would it be a not-for-profit with no government funding?

Looks very anti business and magic money tree, which won't play well in swing places like the Midlands.

Looks very anti business and magic money tree,

Every day, STW amazes me as a source of original thought.

I'm amazed that you'd read it that way dragon 🙄

All the good employers I've worked with and for, abide by these rules anyway. All the exploitative ones I've left would have to change their game. Definitely not a bad thing.

Just harking back to the squabble over Marx on the earlier pages, [url=

Youtube links is only 8-9 minutes and is a worthwhile and fairly balanced examination of Marx's ideas and where they have relevance today.

In fact the whole playlist on political theory should probably be required viewing to all registered voters- it might help with the paucity of actual ideas in current political debate... 😉

Anything that involves major re-nationalisation is clearly anti business, before you get to increased business taxes.

Then other policies such as:

Reintroduce maintenance grants for university students and abolish university tuition fees

Based on the Guardians numbers that is going to cost £10billion a year, alone.

Looks very anti business

Some stuff shouldn't be a business, imo.

Interesing about the nationalised competitor. I always thought this would be a good way to achieve the aim but without the negative aspects of nationalised industry.

Anything that involves major re-nationalisation is clearly anti business

Exclusive !!!!!

draft copy of Tory manifesto leaked!!!

[img] [/img]

(its been a slow morning)

😆 @kimbers.

Oooh a word search

Based on the Guardians numbers that is going to cost £10billion a year, alone

And what is it costing today? You know most of the current loans won't be paid back for years if at all don't you?

It is still tax payers money paying for students it is just hidden in a massive loan pool.

Plenty in there to please [s]most people[/s] deluded lefties on here you would think

I'm loving fans of Brexit saying that Labours plans are economically risky

[img] [/img]

Plenty in there to please deluded lefties on here you would think

I'm wondering if anyone has actually costed renationalisation of rail/utilities/anything else?

Article 1 protocol 1 of ECHR prevents governments seizing property without compensation, so how much money are the government going to hand to already rich people in order to take these things back?

Rail franchises have time limits. No compensation required, just wait 'till they end.

In the power market, idea seems to be to introduce (local) public sector competitors, rather than buy back existing firms. No idea quite how this will work, but doesn't look to need compensation.

Mail would mean buying back shares.

so how much money are the government going to hand to already rich people in order to take these things back?

depends we already hand the rail operators £bns a year in subsidies including Branson, french , german, japanese taxpayers etc

Its not complete renationalisation- the model being proposed is similar to how the east coast mainline was run (at a profit) after stagecoach? screwed it up
so just wait till the franchises end ?

how much money are the government going to hand to already rich people in order to take these things back?

I'd imagine buying a rail operator with no franchise could be pretty cheap, no?

I'm wondering if anyone has actually costed renationalisation of rail/utilities/anything else?

Still, positive news on port development.

[img] [/img]

Including the well known coastal city of Birmingham.

😐

I'd imagine buying a rail operator with no franchise could be pretty cheap, no?

Rail operators don't own the trains, you want them, you've got to buy them back off the ROSCO

Or lease them as now whilst building a load of new ones. New units will keep the Roscos honest.

Article 1 protocol 1 of ECHR prevents governments seizing property without compensation

Just harking back to the squabble over Marx on the earlier pages, THIS Youtube links is only 8-9 minutes and is a worthwhile and fairly balanced examination of Marx's ideas and where they have relevance today.

just watched it and it's just as obvious that that system won't work in the real world.

It seems to me the best way forward is to encourage some sort of shared ownership within companies - like Waitrose/John Lewis or even more so. Everyone seems pretty happy working there.

Give companies tax advantages to structure themselves like that.

I'm loving fans of Brexit saying that Labours plans are economically risky

a lot more risky than brexit, by a long way.

just watched it and it's just as obvious that that system won't work in the real world.

Have you listened to it? Or just watched it? There is no "system" proposed or discussed in the video.

Including the well known coastal city of Birmingham.

its to do with the Grand Union redevlopment

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icknield_Port_Loop

which has been kicking about for a while, tho i think the faesibility study will not get far!

as a scientist who lives in milton keynes, works in london and collabrorates with labs in oxford and cambridge the Science Vale Transport Arc is something im ver keen on

Is Corbyn for or against Brexit now? I've lost track.

TurnerGuy - Member
a lot more risky than brexit, by a long way.

care to quantify that or is it just a feeling

definitely not riskier than leaving the worlds largest trading block that we joined as the sick man of europe 🙄

Thanks, Kimbers. Makes sense as canals.

Same as May

a lot more risky than brexit, by a long way.

corroded - Member

Is Corbyn for or against Brexit now? I've lost track.

I believe he genuinely decided that staying and reforming was the better option at the referendum, but that might be me being naive.

It's become very complicated since the referendum, as it showed that many core labour voters had voted for brexit. I don't think they've handled it very well, but it's also difficult to say exactly what they should have done in order to attract the most GE votes.

And remember, we would be in control of all these changes so can halt them/modify them to get what is required. No pesky 'unelected' EU 'bureaucrats' taking all our money and telling us what to do.

A Brexiters dream (although missing any immigrants to blame)

[s]Br[/s]Immingham Flashy

It's all well and good liking the manifesto. Let's say it has some appeal to those outside labours core vote. But at the moment its only words on paper, it would have to be delivered along with the 1,000's of other matters relating to government. How many voters believe Corbyn and his team are capable of all this ? I guess we'll find out on June 8th

How many voters believe Corbyn and his team are capable of all this ?

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/07/theresa-mays-record-home-secretary-isnt-reassuring/#

Maybot will still win though

But at the moment its only words on paper

Well not quite.

It tells us that's what they WANT to do. They want to make the country a better place with all these social policies. Even if they don't manage it, they still want to.

The alternative is a government that apparently wants to asset-strip the country to keep taxes down and let rich people do the rest of us over.

But at the moment its only words on paper, it would have to be delivered along with the 1,000's of other matters relating to government. How many voters believe Corbyn and his team are capable of all this ?

All manifestos are just words on paper. The MPs don't actually do all of the work involved so whether Labour or Conservative things gets done by those in civil service etc,.

As molgrips says, the intent is key here and shows how they want it to be even if they don't fully get there.

dragon - Member

Based on the Guardians numbers that is going to cost £10billion a year, alone.

Funding for student loans, today, is done entirely by the state- the SLC does its borrowing at arms length through the government. Then in 30 years time (or less) at least half of the loan book (and growing fast) is written off or sold off for a fraction of its supposed value.

The £10bn figure manages to ignore both of these facts. It seems a fairly true cost but ignores the current cost, which is not how maths works.

gofasterstripes - Member
Where I live near the German/Dutch border, we're absolutely flooded with brand new trains, new track, new stations and even new pedestrian bridges over the tracks. Where's this money all coming from?

From the profits arriva makes?

Yes, back in the UK 😛

Who thinks the utilities, mail and railways should be nationalised then?

Yep on those. Especially utilities. The market doesn't work, is complicated and effectively an oligopoly.

I'm happy paying more to subside those that don't do very well out of the 'market' - the vulnerable and old etc.

We really don't need to be swapping all the time. It's a waste of time and effort to benefit those that can be bothered that can actually afford to pay a bit more.

For those claiming nationalised industries don't innovate - are you aware the post office invented one of the first computers in the 40s?

the post office invented one of the first computers in the 40s?

If you're referring to Colossus, there were some rather more pressing needs around at the time than delivering letters. PORS more civilian developments came later.

It was based on work he did whilst at the post office though.

The alternative is a government that apparently wants to asset-strip the country to keep taxes down and let rich people do the rest of us over.

For those claiming nationalised industries don't innovate - are you aware the post office invented one of the first computers in the 40s?