Why are the rebels putting up useless 'candidates' such as Angela Eagle and Owen Smith against Corbyn? Why aren't the likes of Hilary Benn and John Mann, Corbyn's biggest party enemies, standing against him?
Is it because they haven't the balls to do it themselves? Shows just what snivelling, cowardly careerists they really are.
@robixon Corbyn wants major reforms to services; he believes that businesses that are meant to serve the public but have have stopped serving the public, such as rail and energy companies, should be publicly owned and not for profit. That's not a mandate for total nationalisation, just applying state ownership to services that have stopped functioning as promised by the reforms of the 1980s.
He doesn't believe in unilateral disarmament, thinking the UK should set a mandate by setting an example.
Increase the minimum wage to £8, noting that the cost of living has risen.
Anti-Austerity- i.e. increase money to public services such as benefits and the NHS, salaries for public servants such as doctors and nurses should meet inflation.
Mansion tax- people with homes worth millions should pay duty on them, comparable to property rates before council tax/community charge was introduced.
Theres lots more. It's generally a robin hood mandate, increase taxes on the wealthy to rebalance society a bit. A lot of reforms- in my view some are OTT (the UK is complicated place) but some are overdue.
Allow local authorities to borrow money in order to build houses.
[url= http://www.architectsjournal.co.uk/news/can-jeremy-corbyn-solve-the-housing-crisis/8688436.fullarticle ]Architects Journal[/url]
"Of all the candidates, Corbyn has the most detailed housing policies, outlined in a nine-page manifesto."
@clodhopper remember that Corbyn was an unknown this time last year, the same as Smith is now. Eagle challenged in order to raise the issue knowing she wasn't an electable candidate, Smith believes he his, took Eagle's lead, Eagle retracted.
Not sure about Benn or Mann, you could write letters and ask them. They will reply.
Just paid £25 in a drunken fury to be able to vote - if it doesn't go my way, can I claim it back as the game is horribly fixed?
Garlic, but what do these statements actually mean and are they pie in the sky?
[i]"Corbyn wants major reforms to services; he believes that businesses that are meant to serve the public but have have stopped serving the public, such as rail and energy companies, should be publicly owned and not for profit. That's not a mandate for total nationalisation, just applying state ownership to services that have stopped functioning as promised by the reforms of the 1980s."[/i]
States can't run businesses under EU rules because of the risk or monopolies. Retail Energy costs in the Uk are lower than many other EU states, with margins of between 2-3%. What margin would be acceptable and still cover the cost of working capital?
[i]"Anti-Austerity- i.e. increase money to public services such as benefits and the NHS, salaries for public servants such as doctors and nurses should meet inflation."[/i]
NHS Doctors are the highest paid in Europe. The Liability associated with the unfunded NHS Pension scheme has risen to £240B - more than double the entire annual NHS budget and roughly comparable to the entire annual tax receipts from income tax. What would be a fair pay award in a period of sustained low / no inflation?
Why are the rebels putting up useless 'candidates' such as Angela Eagle and Owen Smith against Corbyn? Why aren't the likes of Hilary Benn and John Mann, Corbyn's biggest party enemies, standing against him?
Because the new rules have allowed for what is effectively an insurgency, and they're not idiots.
Choose your battles. You think that when Corbyn is inevitably re-elected, that that'll be the end of the matter? Or just the beginning?
It's tragic that the Labour Party has been reduced to this utter nonsense at this most critical time in our countries modern history
Clodhopper - I'm absolutely ****ing livid with everyone involved in this shambolic farce. But one thing we know, after the last 12 months... Jeremy Corbyn is not the answer. To anything. Because he will never ever be elected to the actual post that matters
@Robdixon, that isn't strictly true. EDF is owned by the French state. Not sure what the EU stance is on state ownership though its unlikely to be draconian- If a business is failing and it's in the public interest to buy it out then there must be rules to allow this.
A large share of Lloyds Bank was bought by the UK government in 2010 to stop it failing, Parts of it might still be government owned. I'm sure state ownership of Southern Rail would also apply, seeing as its a service that's stopped serving. East Coast Rail was also nationalised from 2009 to 2015. The EU didn't block this.
NHS doctors aren't the highest paid in Europe, they're not even the highest paid in the UK. Trainee doctors were targeted for pay cuts for lots of reasons, some deficit reduction based, some ideological- argument being that they should work in the private sector instead, thus weakening the NHS.
Yes our state pension scheme is something to be proud of, considering we're all capitalist swine.
I can't be bothered getting involved with this thread at present. I've just come from a local Momentum meeting this evening, the first one since the coup attempt, it was at least ten times larger than all the previous local Momentum meetings I've been to, which I found both very surprising and very encouraging.
It had a surprisingly diverse age range with quite a few younger members who did not appear to be particularly political, or left-wing for that matter. I would appear that Corbyn's appeal is that he offers them an alternative to the now very discredited British political class.
I think the massive coordinated campaign to discredit Corbyn is actually counterproductive and in the eyes of his supporters is simply increasing his creditably, more so than I expected.
I guess when the bias against him is so intense there has to be a point when it is no longer effective. As the Independent pointed out today :
[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jeremy-corbyn-media-bias-labour-mainstream-press-lse-study-misrepresentation-we-cant-ignore-bias-a7144381.html ]Our report found that 75% of press coverage misrepresents Jeremy Corbyn[/url]
As the article says :
[b][i]We all want and need a strong and a critical media, a watchdog of the powers that be, but maybe we do not need an attack dog that kills off anyone who challenges the status quo and dares to suggest we need a different kind of politics[/i][/b]
Nail on the head imo.
As I say I don't really want to get involved in petty arguments with Tory voters on this thread but this comment by David Graeber, an American and professor of anthropology at the LSE, and who isn't a "Corbynista" btw, provides imo the most concise and analytical description that I have so far read of what is behind the attempt to crush Corbyn.
[url= https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/05/political-establishment-momentum-jeremy-corbyn ]The elites hate Momentum and the Corbynites - and I’ll tell you why[/url]
I particularly liked this :
[b][i] If the opposition to Jeremy Corbyn for the past nine months has been so fierce, and so bitter, it is because his existence as head of a major political party is an assault on the very notion that politics should be primarily about the personal qualities of politicians.
It’s an attempt to change the rules of the game, and those who object most violently to the Labour leadership are precisely those who would lose the most personal power were it to be successful: sitting politicians and political commentators.[/b][/i]
This really is all about [u]power[/u]...... it's not even about left-wing politics.
Because the new rules have allowed for what is effectively an insurgency, and they're not idiots.
The policy of a one member, one vote electoral system was one that was widely supported by the blairites in order to reduce the influence of the unions. I remember David Miliband himself campaigning for the leadership on a platform of opening the party up to a wider support base in order to harness community and grassroots organisation through the use of registered supporters and open primaries. Say all you like about whether it's a good idea or not, but please don't try to claim this is something that's been imposed on them by the left. It may well be an insurgency, but it's a democratic one. The more Corbyn's opponents try to fix the rules and rig the result the more people will flock to him. If you want to be angry at anyone, have a look at these self-styled political experts in the PLP and the media who can't find a candidate to democratically beat someone they say is an incompetent buffoon.
"There's this thing called The Internet. It offers unprecedented access to information, at your fingertips.
Use it."
You're not being asked to phone everyone on the thread. Telling us using the interweb is fine. Just a link to all current policy. I assume its on the Labour or Corbyn websites but I can't see it.
So if momentum are attracting large amounts of people to meetings is it sufficent to influence a general election? Also what happens a local labour party level if momentum don't like the existing candidate - does momentum even fit inside the existing labour party?
Among many delusions highlighted by the Jezza debate...
Yes our state pension scheme is something to be proud of, considering we're all capitalist swine.
...is one of the most remarkable. Proud of a ponzi scheme that is unfit for purpose. Blimey, what next, public ownership of the commanding heights or a piss up at the local brewery?
I can't be bothered getting involved with this thread at present. I've just come from a local Momentum meeting this evening, the first one since the coup attempt
It was in Turkey?
I would appear that Corbyn's appeal is that he offers them an alternative to the now very discredited British political class.
Well its certainly 'an alternative'. But is ineffectual incompetence really 'The Alternative' we want? Given that when you look to the Tory's and the way they've just dealt with a potentially damaging leadership election, the words ruthlessly efficient' spring immediately to mind. i expect Theresa, given the total absence of an opposition, will set about enacting her agenda in the same fashion, while keeping her fingers crossed for Jezza's continued presence at the helm
Something to look forward to eh?
binners - Member
...Given that when you look to the Tory's and the way they've just dealt with a potentially damaging leadership election, the words ruthlessly efficient' spring immediately to mind...
"Ruthlessly efficient" right wing politicians are generally good for only a very small sector of society.
It was in Turkey?
😀
Binners, like Brexit, basic truths need to be hidden behind massive hyperbole eg, "coup...clean out"
Strip it down to the basics - the opposition is being led by someone with weak leadership skills who does not have the confidence of one of the party's constituent groups - the PLP. As a result, the party is failing to function properly and failing in its responsibility to provide and effective opposition to HMG.
It really isn't that difficult - just strip all the noise away.
The party s being led by someone the PLP wont follow even though he has a clear membership mandate and will, most likely , do again.
Whether he has weak leadership or not is not the point as they are in open mutiny because they don't like his policies and they think they can ignore the wishes of the party
JC may or may not be a great leader but no left wing candidate could lead the PLP as they think they control the party ad they get to decide.
One also has to strip away your noise to get to the truth as you are not quite as impartial as you like to pretend
Ruthlessly efficient" right wing politicians are generally good for only a very small sector of society.
Thats exactly the point I was making.
Whereas massively incompetent clueless politicians, who haven't a hope of getting elected, are good for a considerably smaller sector of society, as they'll never get to implement any policies anyway.
They might as well rename the Corbyn Labour Party, once he's re-elected as leader, the 'We're all Going Windsurfing Instead' Party, then all going windsurfing instead, for 20 years, for all the difference they'll make to anyones lives.
They were discussing this on 5 Live earlier. Some hardline, shouty Cobynist made the following statement, in all seriousness...
"We need to return to the 'Party's Principles' (TM). Yes, that might mean we're out of power for 10, 20 or even 30 years, but at least we'll have our party back!"
Well done on your priorities there comrade 😕
[img] 
[/img]
"Clodhopper - I'm absolutely ****ing livid with everyone involved in this shambolic farce."
But all you're doing is crying on an internet forum. You're not actually trying to do something to help achieve change yourself, just moaning about others' perceived inability to do so. Whilst appearing to be pretty bloody clueless about things anyway.
What you should really be angry about, is the fact that your apathy has led to the situation where you now feel so frustrated about your inability to affect change, your impotency, that you need to lash out and blame those who aren't actually anything to do with why you find yourself in the situation you're in.
So; go and do something. Use the information available, to enlighten yourself. Look around you and see what you yourself could get involved in; local community groups, grass roots activism, campaigning for positive change, even consider direct action if you feel it necessary.
The sort of things Jeremy Corbyn has done his whole political career.
Or you could just sit on your arse and moan on the internet...
So; go and do something. Use the information available, to enlighten yourself. Look around you and see what you yourself could get involved in; local community groups, grass roots activism, campaigning for positive change, even consider direct action if you feel it necessary.
And you know that I don't do any of that already, of course? Because you know everything about everything, right? Only you and your fellow travellers know the one true path?
Because only tub thumping lefties, wrapped in their righteous shield of the purest form of socialism, the sword of truth and social justice wielded in their steely fist, ever do anything like that, right?
Your halo is dimming slightly there comrade. Best give it a bit of a polish. Its getting difficult to see from down here at the feet/hooves of this enormous high horse
Whether he has weak leadership or not is not the point as they are in open mutiny because they don't like his policies and they think they can ignore the wishes of the party
But Corbyn also ignores the wishes of his own party and did so on Trident, the GMB leader even called him out for it and others :-
"Labour's policy is to have a continuous at-sea deterrent. It beggars belief that so many MPs jump up and down shouting about party democracy, but aren't batting an eyelid about voting against the democratic will of their own party conference when the line doesn't suit."
PLP and Corbyn are as bad as each other on this.
But Corbyn also ignores the wishes of his own party and did so on Trident, the GMB leader even called him out for it and others :-"Labour's policy is to have a continuous at-sea deterrent. It beggars belief that so many MPs jump up and down shouting about party democracy, but aren't batting an eyelid about voting against the democratic will of their own party conference when the line doesn't suit."
PLP and Corbyn are as bad as each other on this.
This.
"And you know that I don't do any of that already, of course?"
It's pretty obvious; you spend so much time on here, you can't possibly have any time to do anything else! 😆
[img] 
[/img]
That might have worked, if it weren't for the fact you post more in one day than I do in a week! 😆
But Corbyn also ignores the wishes of his own party
But in his case, its called "conviction".
"@clodhopper remember that Corbyn was an unknown this time last year, the same as Smith is now. "
Hardly. Corbyn was well known as a back-bencher with strong opinions, whereas Owen Smith is very wishy-washy at best, and a bit 'meh' really. But the real architects of the coup will not put themselves in the firing line. They know that the'll simply be humiliated and their careers will be irreparably damaged.
But the real architects of the coup will not put themselves in the firing line. They know that the'll simply be humiliated and their careers will be irreparably damaged.
Are you allowed to divulge the true identities of these Machiavellian schemers comrade? Surely they must be brought to justice and explain their treacherous actions against the glorious leader to the people? Surely only then can rightous justice be administered
Brought to justice??
Cleaned out, binners, cleaned out. Its important to get the terms correct. This is the new political order, time to get with the game
They were discussing this on 5 Live earlier. Some hardline, shouty Cobynist made the following statement, in all seriousness...
So some mouthpiece who rang into 5-Live, which by definition means they have an over-inflated view of the importance of their own opinion, represents the entire left wing of the labour party?
Going back to yesterday's discussion on the differences between the tories and nu-labour. If, as you suggest, labour continues with the new labour strategy, what do you think they will do that will be majorly different from the tories?
How will he cope with a debutante PM in PMQ now?
She should be mince meat, surely?
JC just stood up in the House at PMQs to almost resounding silence behind him.
He's good at reading from a sheet. That's one tick in the box....
Ooh, getting tetchy now.
The faces of the shadow cabinet are a picture. Watson hasn't moved yet!
Why did he give up the attack line on Boris? Should have gone after that.
Still learning (on the job) ?
Or perhaps just not very good at it?
Why did he give up the attack line on Boris? Should have gone after that.
He's the political Raheem Sterling. When faced with an open goal, never miss an opportunity to spoon it into Row Z.
Angus Robertson may be cliched but he was more successful in challenging the PM
Who are the Opposition?
Ow, Jamie Reed having a harsh dig at Jezza!!
He's good at reading from a sheet. That's one tick in the box....
I agree JC is crap at the PMQ game, but isn't it pathetic that our system still has this Oxford Union-style stupid charade?
but isn't it pathetic that our system still has this Oxford Union-style stupid charade?
Don't be silly, this is what 'effective opposition' is. That and getting a round of applause on Question Time. It's pretty hilarious that Corbyn's critics use PMQs as the stick with which to beat him, as it's exactly the sort of thing that his politics rejects.
There is nothing remotely like PMQs at the Oxford Union.
Corbyn will be glad that was fhe past PMQ's for the summer, Theresa on her first outing gave him a real battering.
Corbyn really doesn't help himself does he, first question and its Orgreave?
Seriously when surely you should be trying to get away from the image that you are still fighting battles from the 70's and 80's, you you come up with that?
In their own different ways the Tories and SNP are looking to the future while Labour are looking back. I think that succinctly tells you why Labour are losing ground.
There is nothing remotely like PMQs at the Oxford Union.
Yes, but that really doesn't help portray anyone who isn't a Corbyn acolyte as a toff, does it?
Stay on message, comrades! Red Torytoffs will be first against the wall come the glorious revolution! Just as soon as we've stopped bickering about internecine pettiness, that is.
Corbyn really doesn't help himself does he, first question and its Orgreave?
He had a tip from the other moderniser Skinner!
So his politics rejects the idea of holding the PM to account on a weekly basis - what an odd form of opposition. Still explains why he is so poor at it and why his colleagues (clean them out) looked so glum.
