Jeremy Corbyn

While I sympathise with some of your sentiments Binners, the simple fact is that Jezza and his comrades are running rings around the PLP. Who is showing the greater/lesser ability here?

Meanwhile out in the real world....

as some kind of protest against it is fairly self defeating

It's not a protest against Presidential politics, it's an attempt to go a different route. Maybe it's ill-fated and only TV-friendly liars can be elected, which is a sad statemeht on the state of British politics.

and remember that is the job he's apparently interviewing for

I don't know a single person in the labour party who actually believes he wants to be prime minister. You're obsessing over something that's probably not on his agenda.

Great! Don't we all. If you can provide a single solitary example of Jezza doing that.....?

Again, forget about Corbyn and think of the bigger picture. Apart from the fact that it's only been 9 months and much of that time has been spent fighting with his MPs, the party are looking at some pretty game changing policies like the universal basic income among others. Who knows if they'll adopt things like this but you can't put together a policy programme to reverse 40 years of neo-liberalism in a few months. It's going to take decades, and lots of labour leaders, some of whom may become PM, so giving up at the first hurdle just because a mediocre politician was in the right/wrong (depending on how you look at it) place at this particular time is a bit daft.

On the bright side, they're no longer looking like the Tory-lite party!

You're bang on Hurty. Thats what makes it so depressing. John Macdonnell was absolutely on the money when he described them as ****ing hopeless. He was specifically talking about their plotting ability, but I'd say its applicable across the board.

Having said that, the Militant Tendency only have one aim. To defeat teh PLP, take over the party, and keep their beardy messiah as chief placard waver. Theres no programme? No policy. No plan. No desire to actually form a government. Thats it! A protest group.

Whereas the PLP at least knows that if it out of power for the next 20 years, then it might as well not exist at all.

So I'm siding with the grown ups on this one

Trident Vote, its Oarty policy of course and remember Corbyn's early act as party leader was to keep discussion off the agenda at Conference last year.

138 for renewal
48 against
49 abstain

Vote 472 vs 117 overall, as Thonbury said this was just a trap for Labour

This leadership election is great for the legal lrofession. All sorts of challenges going on. Corbyn to oersonally challenge on ballot inclusion and various groups challenging 6 month membership rule

I don't know a single person in the labour party who actually believes he wants to be prime minister. You're obsessing over something that's probably not on his agenda.

I think I see a problem....

I think I see a problem....

You're right, it is a problem. But not one that's caused by Corbyn, or indeed his supporters. It's caused by a party system which allows it's elected representatives to ignore the clear wishes of the party membership and other supporters. The membership have seized their opportunity to change it and the PLP are putting up an hilariously ineffective fight against it. If/when that problem is resolved, I expect Corbyn will disappear and be replaced by someone who knows what they're doing.

As an aside, and on the subject of what a future more progressive labour government could look like, Have a read of [url= https://medium.com/mosquito-ridge/enough-central-bank-jazz-hands-816825d67efe#.a94k39zbm ]Paul Mason's lecture[/url] that he gave to a lecture series organised and sponsored by John McDonnel. It's interesting stuff.

...when that problem is resolved? As in mass deselection of sitting MPs?

Followed by a truly socialist government being swept to power on a wave of popular enthusiasm as the blinkers finally fall from the eyes of the working classes? In glorious solidarity with their scots comrades? And as the sniveling blairite ponk tory rump [nice image. Sorry] crawl off to join the lib dems or sumamt?

Seriously how do any remaining Corbynites see this playing out?

Seriously how do any remaining Corbynites see this playing out?

By it either working, or us ending up with the Tories. Only NuLab didn't work the last two elections, so I'd love to know what your alternative is.

Problem is as Corbyn isn't a team player and he hasn't taken the PLP team with him. Effectively he has come into the PLP many who have worked hard and he's turned around and told them they are all sh*t. Then said 'hey why not come work for me?'. Oddly enough they don't want to. If Corbyn and his cronies want to change the Labour party then they need to do it slowly and take people with them, change too much in one go and disparage everything that went before then expect a fight.

If Corbyn doesn't want to be PM then he should stand down, or at least outline a vision with a succession plan.

Only NuLab didn't work the last two elections, so I'd love to know what your alternative is.

*With fewer wars if you like, but it won't make any odds to the vote.

and you've got another 20 years of New Labour.

**** that. Frankly I'd rather have the Tories. At least they have the decency to be up front about how they'll screw you sideways with a rusty pitchfork.

+1

Frankly I'd rather have the Tories

It's caused by a party system which allows it's elected representatives to ignore the clear wishes of the party membership and other supporters.

yes, perhaps they should go back to a system which they won election under?

Don't be daft. What on earth would they want to do that for? Here is where we are in the present labour party leaders mindset....

[img] [/img]

Only NuLab didn't work the last two elections, so I'd love to know what your alternative is.

Really, you think the issue in the last 2 elections was policy? The major problem (as it is now) was they lacked a credible leader. After Brown went Labour managed to pick both the wrong Milliband and the wrong Ed. This has been jumped on as a failure of trying to position in the centre by the far left of the party to justify a paradigm shift.

Don't be daft. What on earth would they want to do that for?

You've hit the nail on the head there. Some people (myself included I guess, even though I do quite well out of the status quo) are interested in actually changing things, not pretending to change them to feel all warm and cuddly about it, until everyone realises it was all a pointless waste of time. It's all very well hating the tories, but getting rid of them only to do the same things is just pointless tribalism. And yet ironically it's always the lefties who are accused of class war.

jambalaya - Member
@scotroutes - widely reported on the news coverage prior to the vote.

Assuming that Corbyn isn't actually a good leader/organizer/communicator/team player/etc*. I'm left with 3 choices.

1) Stick to my guns with Corbyn - Whose beliefs and integrity are what I want and who at least seems to be dragging the Labour Party more to the left with his leadership. The two challengers are finding it very difficult to state policy differences knowing that they need to win a few people round who previously voted Corbyn. The PLP may just send in another challenger (there should be some kind of timescale limit!) but it may still all be for the good.

2) Choose either Angela Eagle or Owen Smith, who haven't voted in the past in a way I'm happy with and who I'm not sure are good leaders other than they wont be as attacked quite as much.

The fact that knowing fully that there can only be one challenger if they are going to beat Corbyn, they still don't seem to be able to agree/deal doesn't fill me with confidence.

The reason for doing this would be purely down to 'electability'. Do I really think Eagle/Smith are electable?

3) Stop caring and leave it to someone else. If everyone who felt as I do did this, we'd be stuck with a Conservative govmnt afaics.

*Those accounts of how MPs tried to make it work have shaken me a little in this respect I'll admit.

An open minded and reasonable assessment. Wish I could help.

fwiw I'll personally vote ABC (anyone but, ah y'know) with a shake of the head and hope sanity might begin to return.

A lot of people who voted for Corb initially need to see that in many ways he has won. He has dragged the party leftwards (or his mass of supporters have, his inner circle risk losing everything).

If I was a vaguely centrist MP of cynical careerist bent (some mindsets I find it easier to inhabit than others) I'd sure as hell be emphasising my total leftiness from here on in...

That means it'll be easy to provide a link to some of these reports?

Binners - if only they were at the Free Mandela stage.

Comrade Skinner was fighting the Union Of Democratic Mineworkers - splitter scabs that they are - like it were 1985.

This time, Comrades we will show them. This time!

It's all very well hating the tories, but getting rid of them only to do the same things is just pointless tribalism

You really think that Labour under Blair just did the same as the Tories?

Human rights act, working time regs, tax credits, free museums, NHS expansion

We can argue till we are blue in the face about how effective they were, how tax credits may have subdidised low wages, how much of it was wasted, about the problems of PFI, and how long it will take to pay back the money that was spent...

but even I wouldn't suggest for one second that the Conservative party, had they been in power 1997-2010, would have done any of those things.

Bedroom tax, benefit caps, widespread use of benefit sanctions?

Do you really think that Labour would have introduced things like that if they had still been in power? It's all well and good holding a placard and voting against things, but the only way that you can actually [b]stop[/b] these things happening is by winning elections

This is the problem with the hard left and corbynites - they are so wrapped up in their little navel gazing internecine fantasy world where nothing you could ever do would be 'pure' or 'left' enough to satisfy them, that they lose all sight of the bigger picture

A point I've made repeatedly through this thread. To just denounce anyone as 'Blairite' like you're spitting is is juevenile and ridiculous.

Put away the prism of Iraq - through which absolutely everything must be viewed, apparently - and the Blair Brown government did so much that the Tories would never have dreamed of doing.

But we can't admit that, can we? Oh no... that would be treachery to 'The Left'. he must be castigated at every turn. Iraq the only legacy permitted!

And to say that the country after 13 years of Nu Labour looked exactly the same as if we'd have had 40 years of continuous Tory rule is absolutely laughable

It was not just about subs you need to be exceptionally unnormal to argue otherwise

From the linked piece :

to take the necessary steps required to maintain the current posture by replacing the current Vanguard Class submarines with four Successor submarines

the vote was about replacing the subs, whatever way you look at it.

If we didn't replace the subs then eventually the Trident program might finish, or they might be rehoused in some other launching facility, or subs bought in from elsewhere, or whatever. But that was a side issue.

Bedroom tax, benefit caps, widespread use of benefit sanctions?

Of those 3, labour was only opposed to the first. In fact benefit sanctions and workfare was a labour invention.

And to say that the country after 13 years of Nu Labour looked exactly the same as if we'd have had 40 years of continuous Tory rule is absolutely laughable

You could argue it's worse, if I had time I would, but I'm off out the bike. Maybe tomorrow when it's raining again 🙂

AlexSimon - Member

The fact that knowing fully that there can only be one challenger if they are going to beat Corbyn, they still don't seem to be able to agree/deal doesn't fill me with confidence.

This is the most Labour thing ever really. They're both candidates that can "heal the party" and restore unity and the first thing they did was have a bunfight over who was the healeyes, then the second thing was to try and win the support of the membership by conspiring together to give the membership as little choice as possible.

This is the problem with the hard left and corbynites - they are so wrapped up in their little navel gazing internecine fantasy world where nothing you could ever do would be 'pure' or 'left' enough to satisfy them, that they lose all sight of the bigger picture

ld where nothing you could ever do would be 'pure' or 'left' enough to satisfy them, that they lose all sight of the bigger picture

Why can we not have more principleless politicians who will say and do anything to get power...its a lament I hear every day and i share your pain

So now Eagle has pulled out, how will it end? Leader elections seems to be out of favour.

Binners has it nailed the Party membership the much vaunted 500k is a protest group - if this support extended into the electorate Corbyn would have plenty of support in the PLP - he doesn't therefore by simple maths he is unelectable for the middle ground voters

"A point I've made repeatedly through this thread."

The only 'point' you've made on this thread is just how little 'work' you must actually do, and what an incredibly boring and unfulfilling life you must have, to spend so much time on this forum, making yourself look a complete arse. 😆

Disturbingly, you're obviously not alone. 😯

If you put as much energy into doing something productive, rewarding and fulfilling, you might actually have something in life to be happy about, instead of needing to spend your every waking hour on an internet forum achieving absolutely **** all.

You could, for example, put that energy into trying to achieve positive change for yourselves and others around you, actually [i]do[/i] something. Radical idea, I know. But try it, let us know how you get on.

The only 'point' you've made on this thread is just how little 'work' you must actually do, and what an incredibly boring and unfulfilling life you must have, to spend so much time on this forum, making yourself look a complete arse.

I like to see it as multi-tasking, the ability to do something remotely useful whilst posting on political threads here which I would agree is mostly a total waste of time 😀

As you can probably tell I don't care much about what others think of me, I do appreciate the personal messages I get supporting my efforts to put an alternative message in what is forum with a clear bias which does not reflect wider society as we've seen again and again.

On this specific topic I like many other posters knew Corbyn would be a very bad choice as leader, in many respects he's turned out worse than we thought. The fact he now looks un-impeachable is testamount to how unsuitable for government the Labour Party is. Unless they sort this Labour is looking at decades of irrelevance and as in Scotland possibly much worse than that

So Owen Smith.

Positions himself as left of Angela (who wouldn't given the opponent).

Has promised a referendum on whatever EU deal is presented. Quite when he thinks this can happen, I have no idea. Presumably if May calls an early GE.

Says he was opposed to Iraq, but when interviewed in 2006 said he didn't know whether he would have voted against the war, as the previous MP Llew Smith did.

Voted against UK military action in Syria

Voted against Academies, but there are a few interviews around that sow him to be in favour when schools are very poor!

Is in favour of private sector involvement in the NHS (although stops short of calling it privatisation).

Was a senior lobbyist for Pfizer.

Is fine with taking kids out of school during term time.

Wants a wholly elected House of Lords

Voted against university Tuition fees

Pro Trident

Voted for allowing terminally ill people to be given assistance to end their life

Led the Labour campaign against the bedroom tax

Led the Labour campaign against Iain Duncan Smith’s welfare cuts

Seems to have generally voted [i]against[/i] higher taxes, although he's always been in opposition afaict.

Any more for any more?

Well that's me told then. And from the lofty, lefty moral high ground too, no less

In the absense of a rational argument, just get personal and slag people with an opposing view off instead...?

Hmmmmmm....

Now where have we seen that recently?

*sits back and awaits brick through the window*

Any more for any more?

Apparently he's normal.

Can we nick [url= http://www.thecanary.co/2016/07/19/watch-uks-youngest-mp-demolish-arguments-trident-video/ ]Mhairi Black[/url] for Labour leader?
(arguing against Trident in the link above)

Can we nick Mhairi Black for Labour leader?
(arguing against Trident in the link above)

On the basis of Alex's list above - he'll do for me!

Corbyn was elected to do a job for which he needed the right tools. All he got was a bunch of tools....

The PLP is the problem right now, not Corbyn. Once that lot are cleaned out, then it's time to see what Corbyn is made off.

Purge the bastards, clean out the party, suppress the dissenters....

Modern politics in action. How lovely.

"I like to see it as multi-tasking, the ability to do something remotely useful whilst posting on political threads here which I would agree is mostly a total waste of time"

How can you do anything 'remotely useful' when all you do is type nonsense on here? Glad you accept that your input is a total waste of time though. 😆

"Well that's me told then. And from the lofty, lefty moral high ground too, no less"

Of course, the irony here is that it's you who is attempting to post from some sort of moral high ground. 😆

"In the absense of a rational argument, just get personal and slag people with an opposing view off instead...?"

Which is what you've been doing about Corbyn for the last umpteen pages of this thread. Again. And again. And again and again and again.... Sorry if my 'personal attacks' on you hurt you so much; I didn't realise you were so sensitive.

As for bricks through windows; it wasn't through Eagle's constituency office window at all; it was in fact through a window of a communal stairwell of the building Eagle's office is situated in. Her office clearly had Labour posters in it's windows, which were all intact. There is, so far, absolutely not one shred of evidence that suggests it was actually Corbyn supporters who did is. But an absence of facts didn't stop Eagle from manipulating them in her favour. 🙄

"On this specific topic I like many other posters knew Corbyn would be a very bad choice as leader, in many respects he's turned out worse than we thought. "

So, a man who stormed the leadership elections, and who has been the catalyst for massive numbers of new members joining the party, who during his leadership has seen a Labour London mayor elected, as well as improvement in Labour's council election results, is a 'very bad choice'? Maybe if you're not a Labour supporter or a Labour MP who has lost sight of the real core values and traditions of the party, and is instead using it as something to further their own career. Truth is, is that his election as leader has ignited the debate on where and who Labour actually are, and how that must change in order to actually have any future political relevance. Labour must and will split; at the moment the only issue is who keeps the 'brand'. If Corbyn is re-elected leader, then the losers will have to **** off and form their own 'centrist' party. They can go and keep the LibDems company, they must be feeling very lonely right now.