Jeremy Corbyn

I am trying to do that.

You're not trying very hard.

1) How will nukes deter stateless terrorists (the largest threat to the UK itself we've faced for a very long time)?
2) Which states would be seriously tempted to attack us, with nuclear or conventional forces, if we did not renew Trident? What proof is there that in having Trident, we've prevented this?
3) If we did choose not to renew Trident, and consequently joined the hundreds of non-nuclear powers who are allied with a nuclear power, how would that make us any more vulnerable than German, Australia, Canada, Spain, Italy, etc.?

Surely those are the questions you'll have very good answers to if you're advocating spending 200bn on something as horrific as a major strategic nuclear weapons system?

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They've missed the '...less' off the end of that! 😆

Hope

Is the last thing to die.

A new hope?

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(I'm sure it's been posted but I'm not wading through all the witterings)

Insanity is doing the same thing...

Corbyn isn't the same thing as Brown or Milliband.

No, he's more like a low rent Michael Foot, without any of the intelligence, integrity, patriotism or panache.

I think that Star Wars analogy works but not in the way intended as Obi-wan Kenobi dies early in Episode VI yet the Emperor is still ruling many years later, right up to the end of Episode VIII.

Insanity is doing the same thing...

Corbyn isn't the same thing as Brown or Milliband.

if we did not renew Trident?

but this is a vote to renew the subs, not trident.

the subs can be used to carry conventional arms, and I think they do have some, so if trident easn't renewed they could still be used to launch off some cruise-type missiles.

I think that Star Wars analogy works but not in the way intended

[url= http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/voters-can-fk-right-off-confirms-labour-20160718110970 ]This would be funny if it weren't so devastatingly accurate[/url]

355 for renewing the subs...

No, he's more like a low rent Michael Foot, without any of the intelligence, integrity, patriotism or panache.

😆 waaaaah! We're so caught up in celeb culture aren't we!!

How about Robbie Williams or Beyonce?

wally

@scotroutes - widely reported on the news coverage prior to the vote. You guys need a pantomime villan to troll and rant against, it must stick in your throats how over the 4 years I have been here I have been on the winning sode of every major issue we've discussed including Scottish and EU Referendums and of course good old Jezza.

How about Robbie Williams or Beyonce?

what do they have to do with the labour party ???

well if we're choosing our leaders based on their panache

How about Robbie Williams or Beyonce?

what do they have to do with the labour party ???

To be honest... either of them could probably do a better job then the 3 stooges presently fighting over the hollowed out husk of the party. At least it'd be entertaining, and any comedy probably intentional

@scotroutes - widely reported on the news coverage prior to the vote.

Well I googled his name and trident and there was nothing to suggest he would vote for trident. This is not a surprise as the SNP are not keen on their MPs expressing anything other than the party line.

Binners... Were you always anti-Corbyn or are you just pissed off cos his involvement has split the party, giving the toffs a better chance of winning the next GE?

Neither really. I thought it'd be a good thing to begin with. I was all in favour of a new approach. I thought that all he'd need to do was compromise a bit on the wilder leftie stuff that scares the horses in a centrist country like the UK, and he might be able to re-establish a post-blair centre left party.

When virtually the first thing he did was refuse to sing the national anthem, I knew that there was little chance of that, and so its proved. Its been downhill all the way ever since, and just dissolved into farce with the Trident 'debate' debacle yesterday.

The bottom line is that he's been on the backbenches all his life not because of his staunchly held principles (which I'm not questioning) but because he's just crap at being a politician. He gets outmanouvered at every turn, and doesn't have the political nouse to see how he's being led into huge elephant traps, and then stitched up in the right wing press.

He's clueless, quite frankly. Totally incompetent and incapable of any type of leadership whatsoever

He's been the gift that keeps on giving for the Tory party. And the very last thing the country needs right now is the Tories facing an open goal

but this is a vote to renew the subs, not trident.

that is like arguing w just voted for a ship rather than an aircraft carrier when we know they just voted to renew the nuclear threat
FFS be honst

You guys need a pantomime villan to troll and rant against,

No one GAS and its not a credible response to yet again being wrong and talking nonsense. Folk object to the fact you make things up /lie and then d this when facts are presented to you - its not personal its just you are almost always wrong

it must stick in your throats how over the 4 years I have been here I have been on the winning sode of every major issue we've discussed including Scottish and EU Referendums and of course good old Jezza

Its not much of a surprise to see the electorate is as dense as you or that I more left wing than them.

There really is not much there to debate as you make things up then get all flouncy and arrogant when challenged

it must stick in your throats how over the 4 years I have been here I have been on the winning sode of every major issue we've discussed including Scottish and EU Referendums and of course good old Jezza

Nope.

And as for winning, I'm afraid you're on the losing side of Brexit along with everyone else. We're all going to be a lot less well off......

I have been here I have been on the winning sode of every major issue we've discussed including Scottish and EU Referendums

What does it actually mean in your world to be "on the winning side"? Does it mean that, for example, more people agreed with your view on Brexit than not? Is that something that reflects merit on you in some way?

that is like arguing w just voted for a ship rather than an aircraft carrier when we know they just voted to renew the nuclear threat
FFS be honst

the current subs aren't due to be decommisioned until 2030 so they would have been capable of carrying trident missiles until then. The vote was on whether they are to be replaced or not.

Think that would seem pretty honest to any normal person...

"How about Robbie Williams or Beyonce?"

what do they have to do with the labour party ???

Nothing. But they're popular, and that's what it's all about, right? Maybe we can get them to drive around in a bus with some fake promises on the side. Result!!

But they're popular, and that's what it's all about, right? Maybe we can get them to drive around in a bus with some fake promises on the side. Result!!

Well 52% of people would vote for them for a start 😉

Well 52% of people would vote for them for a start

Then we'd be on the winning side. Yippee!!!

Nothing. But they're popular, and that's what it's all about, right?

No, it's not

What you fail to have recognised, ensconced in the latest Labour cult of personality, is that it's not about the popularity of the person, it's about the popularity of the policies and how they reflect within the electorate.

It wasn't Foot who lost the election, it was the policies inside the longest suicide note in history. Similarly, it wasn't Ed, it was the economic policies and that frigging stupid tombstone.

Then we'd be on the winning side. Yippee!!!

There'd be a petition within minutes.

What you fail to have recognised, ensconced in the latest Labour cult of personality, is that it's not about the popularity of the person, it's about the popularity of the policies and how they reflect within the electorate.

It seems to me that it is rather the Tories who are the ones ensconced in personalities, with their love of the content-free Boris zone as prime example.

Think that would seem pretty honest to any[b] normal [/b]person

The only reason to replace the nuclear subs is because we will be replacing trident a quick glance at the papers, a few minutes of listening to the debate or a quick glance here

https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2016-07-18/debates/16071818000001/UKSNuclearDeterrent

Don't worry the title of the debate or the first paragraph will be enough for you, sorry any normal person if not you, to understand what was actually being debated.

Everyone knows what the debate was actually about except you

That this House supports the Government’s assessment in the 2015 National Security Strategy and Strategic Defence and Security Review that the UK’s independent minimum credible nuclear deterrent, based on a Continuous at Sea Deterrence posture, will remain essential to the UK's security today as it has for over 60 years, and for as long as the global security situation ?demands, to deter the most extreme threats to the UK's national security and way of life and that of the UK's allies; supports the decision to take the necessary steps required to maintain the current posture by replacing the current Vanguard Class submarines with four Successor submarines; recognises the importance of this programme to the UK’s defence industrial base and in supporting thousands of highly skilled engineering jobs; notes that the Government will continue to provide annual reports to Parliament on the programme; recognises that the UK remains committed to reducing its overall nuclear weapon stockpile by the mid-2020s; and supports the Government’s commitment to continue work towards a safer and more stable world, pressing for key steps towards multilateral disarmament.

It was not just about subs you need to be exceptionally unnormal to argue otherwise

There'd be a petition within minutes.

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ninfan - member
blah blah blah waffle

err.. stunning!

You've basically responded with 'I know you are, you said you are but what am I?'

no wait, that's a really compelling counterpoint.. really

😕

Turns out Corbyn isn't very popular with longer serving Labour members

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Right! This has gone beyond a bloody joke now! This is what Ernie and the 3 Quid Trots have reduced me too

I've just read an article by Polly Toynbee.... [b]POLLY BLOODY TOYNBEE FFS![/b] ... and found myself broadly in agreement with all of it! I nevr thought this day would come. I feel nothign but despair 😥

[url= https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/18/forget-trident-labour-needs-to-focus-on-issues-that-matter ]Forget Trident. Labour needs to focus on issues that matter[/url]

He's clueless, quite frankly. Totally incompetent and incapable of any type of leadership whatsoever

His competence in political maneuverings is not the point. Corbyn symbolises a wish within the party to move away the short sighted, tactics-not-strategy, short term managerialism and populism of the Blair and Brown years. The membership want a progressive, modernised left agenda which will confront neo-liberalism and austerity. The PLP, unsurprisingly since many of them were elected under Blair and Brown, want the same old failed strategy. Quite frankly even if Corbyn was a genius manager, expert diplomat and inspirational speaker it wouldn't make any difference. Until the PLP either accept the wishes of the membership, or step aside for new MPs to take up the new strategy, then this will roll on no matter who is leader. In fact the PLP's focus on Corbyn and his own personal failings is making it even harder for him to be removed.

Corbyn symbolises a wish within the party to move away the short sighted, tactics-not-strategy, short term managerialism and populism of the Blair and Brown years. The membership want a progressive, modernised left agenda which will confront neo-liberalism and austerity.

This.

This is what Ernie and the 3 Quid Trots have reduced me too

Sorry for the OT, but "Ernie and the 3 Quid Trots" is the best band name I've ever heard.

Back to the Toynbee article - thanks Binners:

"A surge of enthusiasts joining Labour should be a strength. But the incomers, sincere believers, are fronted by a small handful of wreckers armed with political knuckle-dusters, relishing turning Labour meetings into a fight club..."

"For many new joiners, Corbyn is a symbol, a totem of belief. Professor Tim Bales’s survey shows 78% are middle class, with a south-east weighting – where not many seats can be won..."

I'm unrecognisable to my 32 year old, previously staunchly Liberal Democrat self, I'm now a full member of the Labour Party and I agree with Polly Toynbee. Whatever next.

There needs to be a way forward. As much as it pains me to say this, Corbyn is not the man to run the party, much less be Prime Minister. There needs to be a strong showing in the Labour heartlands of old, which voted Leave and threaten to swing towards UKIP as the protest vote of choice. There's definitely a role for the politics of the left to step up and offer something new, but the Labour Party is turning on itself rather than building anew.

I've a vote on the leadership, which I intend to use, but not before I do my research.

Quite frankly even if Corbyn was a genius manager, expert diplomat and inspirational speaker it wouldn't make any difference.

Yes it would. It'd make an enormous difference. They are all exactly the qualities that people look for in a potential prime minister - and remember that is the job he's apparently interviewing for - and all those qualities are what are completely absent from Corbyn. And everyone can see it but the labour party 'membership' who seem hell bent on becoming a student protest group, so it can focus on what most people would regard as utterly irrelevant 'right on' causes while waving placards and chanting slogans, and not actually even thinking about providing solutions to actual problems - ie Brexit, which doesn't even register in Corbynland

The membership want a progressive, modernised left agenda which will confront neo-liberalism and austerity.

Great! Don't we all. If you can provide a single solitary example of Jezza doing that.....?

They are all exactly the qualities that people look for in a potential prime minister

And see how splendidly it has worked out following that thinking ...

Politics is about taking people with you and you need people to buy into your ideas. Part of that is providing a consistent message, that people believe.

For example what are folk to believe on Trident? The Labour party policy is renewal, which is supported by GMB and Unite Unions yet Corbyn voted against. So who is the one fighting the democratic will of the party now?

And see how splendidly it has worked out following that thinking ...

We are where we are. With presidential politics in all but name (and electoral systems, obviously).

I don't like it either. But putting the bloke who runs the bi-weekly Socialist Workers Party branch meetings, in the Mandela Suite at the local Miners Welfare Club, as some kind of protest against it is fairly self defeating