No block of vote to trigger A50. Phew.

Struggling on questions now.

So looks like our top politicians still struggle with FoM and how it works!!

Q. Would you like migration to fall?
A. ?

Cmon Jezza be brave. Damn missed it

Did everyone miss the thing about him relaunching himself as a left populist?

By having a pop at footballers ? I can't think of a more internationally mobile workforce and most of the really high earners are not British anyway, they don't care whether they are playing Wendyball in the UK or anywhere else.

Would love to see if there's a correlation on here between those who hate Jeremy Corbyn and those who ride a Santa Cruz / Drive an Audi.

😆

I'm strongly against most of the gig economy also. It mostly folk in California and the like getting rich by avoiding regulations, that's not on.

AirBnB apparently don't meet any regs for renting out just say pass it all onto the owner to comply (or not), why is that allowed? AirBnB should be redefined as the 'operator' and be subject to the same regs any other competing business is.

[img] [/img]

^^^ indeed, one of my pet hates (gig) ... their prime competitve advantage is dodging regulations and not paying taxes. Of course my Californian nephew who did an intern for Uber thinks they are great not least as he got a free hoody 😐

@cranberry brilliant 🙂 chapeau to Guido Fawkes

Reducing Inequality. Just a moderately serious note on Jez2.0 on the hoof policy ...instead of paying a CEO £10m or £20m bonus (lots of employee and employer tax and NI) the company pays a lowly taxed dividend to it's shareholders, most of whom are probably outside the UK 😳

That inexcusably appalling photoshopping has set my OCD right off. I can't even look at it. Whoever did that needs taking outside and given a serious shoeing!!! And I'd be more than happy to oblige

It's crying out for proper artwork ... something modern and minimalist and most definitely not carved into a large peice of stone.

@dazh no one has a salary of £70m a year. A senior exec may well nave a salary of £5m plus performance related bonus or share awards or dividends on share awards. People like Martin Sorrell founded his business, why not make a bundle from starting and building a fabulously successful company. What has Corbyn got against people like Mark Zuckerberg ?

Corbyn's shadow work and pensions secretary distancing herself from the leader's remarks whilst other ex advisers are even more harsh "idiotic"

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-labour-shadow-cabinet-debbie-abrahams-national-pay-cap-maximumdanny-blanchflower-a7519681.html

All this when it was supposed to be the big rebrand day. Nothing here reminds me of Monty Python at all. Definitely not.

I have an idea for Corbyn

[b]Stick to Twitter, it's only 140 characters and someone else can type them in for you[/b]

A bit like Trump?

'twas a deliberate comparison 🙂

What seemed a hopless cause turned into a winner and Corbyn is trying to position himself as the anti-establishment candidate as did The Donald.

It is worth considering

A Labour MP was just interviewed on five live. Asked what the Labour Party's policy now is on immigration, given that Jezza managed to offer two completely contradictory stances within one sentence....

I'm paraphrasing slightly, but basically....

"I haven't got a *ing clue. Let us know if you can find out, would you"

Then asked about the maximum wage concept....

"I haven't got a *ing clue. First any of us have heard about it"

The relaunch is going well then...

[img] [/img]

For once (maybe more times) I'm with Jamba on this, totally unworkable (£350k for example is not even 'Board' money at a decent-size corporate) and no doubt totally off the 'hoof'.

FWIW there use to be a maximum wage for footballers. My Grandad played in the 1st Division in the 30's and was paid a maximum by the club and then lots of cash in envelopes. Bought a few houses and the like plus a pub with it, not sure how he 'washed' it though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximum_wage

Quality story. Plenty of similar things when Rugby was an "amateur" game too.

Huffington Post suggests the idea / not-a-policy has been abandonned already

Jeremy Corbyn ditched his support for a maximum wage cap on Tuesday afternoon, just hours after first announcing it.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/jeremy-corbyn-abandons-maximum-pay-cap-the-same-day-as-suggesting-it_uk_58751150e4b0a1ff704377da?utm_hp_ref=uk

Welcome to 2017 🙂

A bit like Trump?

Sorry, but no, not at all.

Trump has run a business or two
He has been successful
He has created jobs
...and has therefore contributed to society

He has been elected to power

For Jeremy it has all been downhill since he failed to complete his HND in Trade Union Studies - a life of failure, stuck re-losing the battles that he lost in the 70's and 80's.

😀

not nice kicking a man when he is down but this was funny

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/10/corbyn-brexit-high-pay-public-sector

Corbyn tries Trump tactic of saying anything that comes into his head

Funny indeed. Long may it continue.

There was little danger of anyone misinterpreting that, because to do that would have involved the possibility of someone interpreting it correctly. Or at all.

Indeed. How the **** can you stray off (your own) message within one sentence. Its not like he's been busy doing anything else, is it? Surely to christ he could have decided a position and stuck to it for more than 10 minutes? FFS?!! He's like a child with attention deficit disorder!

Its an absolute tragedy. For everyone involved. There is now a complete vacuum at the heart of politics where the opposition should be, at one of those most crucial junctures in modern British history. All while this clown muses to himself out loud, in front of the media. And that is just not healthy in a democracy

Given todays utter and complete shambles, I think my previous estimate of Labour being reduced to 100 seats is looking wildly optimistic. nobody in their right mind (so that excludes Momentum members, obvs) would vote for him to run a stall at a village fete, never mind the country

If I was the Maybot, having witnessed todays much heralded [s]comedy[/s] relaunch, I'd call an election tomorrow. You can bet your arse that that discussion is presently being had at Number 10

Trump has run a business or two
He has been successful
He has created jobs
...and has therefore contributed to society

So many plot holes in that storyline it's hard to know where to begin!

😆

If I was the Maybot, having witnessed todays much heralded comedy relaunch, I'd call an election tomorrow.

I hope she does. I'd like to see Corbyn fight an election. It's what he's best at, and against a soulless stuttering soundbite regurgitator like May he may even surprise a lot of people (that doesn't mean I think he'll win BTW). If we have to wait til 2020 we've got 2 more years of Corbyn trying and failing to be a media savvy politician with him probably stepping aside when it's too late. She won't though, because she's more of a ditherer than Gordon Brown was.

I wonder why Jezza didnt check the ONS data today before he mentioned inequality?

Is this the real trump/brexshit approach of ignoring experts and data or does he just not care about saying things that are incorrect?

It's what he's best at

He's only ever fought a safe Labour seat. We know he likes to preech to the converted. His performance in the Referendum showed he has no clue how to fight a national campaign. I very much doubt Labour have ever used Corbyn in a GE campaign, throughout his career he's never been on message 😉

He's only ever fought a safe Labour seat.

Yes of course, I'd forgotten that he was anointed labour leader against no competition. How forgetful of me!

Stop all this defeatist talk, when Corbyn wins the forth coming election you'll all be dancing.

I wonder why Jezza didnt check the ONS data today before he mentioned inequality?

He probably did and given the commentary at BBC:

There are caveats around these figures - they are based on surveys, so there is a margin of error, and it is particularly difficult to get survey responses from people at the top of the income distribution.

Decided that the numbers were as reliable as some of our (STW) right-wing sympathisers facts. 😉

I think you underestimate Corbyn. I completely misunderstood this video

At the end Corbyn asks a question. "There is nothing wrong with that, is there?". Now this morning I just thought that this was him exhibiting some prickliness when being pressed on an issue, but I underestimated him, it was a classic double bluff - he was actually asking a question. The interviewer answered No. But our Jeremy is no fool, he knows anyone working for the evil Murdoch empire is hard wired to mislead honest servants of the people such as himself. He immediately knew the policy was a problem, because they said it wasn't, and therefore withdrew it in the afternoon. This is the guileful and decisive leadership the country needs.

Has anyone blamed the media yet today?

Right now this is a very good idea...
http://www.libdems.org.uk/membership-faqs

@dazh the leadership election was by very definition the faithful including those that paid £3 to vote for him

Laura K's blog, final paragragph

As 2017 begins, Mr Corbyn's internal party critics will sigh, that still as the world changes around him, Mr Corbyn stays in his comfort zone, in the hope that eventually, more members of the public will join him there.

So much for the grand relaunch

Flashy - there was some trot on the news before blaming the Blairites! 🙂

@dazh the leadership election was by very definition the faithful including those that paid £3 to vote for him

Ermm... I am not *too* sure how faithful I was to the Labour cause when I voted.

😳

I see that the Momentum are tearing themselves apart again.

Splitters.

🙂

I am not *too* sure how faithful I was to the Labour cause when I voted.

This thread has become a tory circle jerk. It used to have some interesting discussion on it but I see we're now back to tory idiots patting themselves on the back at how clever they are at supposedly subverting the labour party. At least it reinforces my general opinion of you lot.

dazh we'd love to see some input from Junky etc but they seem to have abandoned both Corbyn and this thread. There is of course a sense from us of "told you so", in fact on steriods as Corbyn has turned into an even bigger fiasco than we thought. Labour needs to get a grip or he and Momentum are going to destroy the party as an electoral force

@cranberry 🙂 I was being rather tongue in cheek, I looked into voting but decided I'd keep my £3 as Corbyn was so far ahead - my rationale was "I wish the British electorate to have the chance to vote on a true left wing agenda to be laid out by Jeremy Corbyn"

There is of course a sense from us of "told you so"

Are you so naive or arrogant to think labour supporters are unaware of the failings of Corbyn? I've forgotten how many times I've said it, but what's going on is not about him. Yes there are some stupid people indulging in some sort cult of personality, but they're in a tiny fringe minority. The majority know that it's about something much bigger. It's funny because the people most obsessed with him seem to be you lot.

Labour needs to get a grip or he and Momentum are going to destroy the party as an electoral force

Labour were already on the road to destruction as an electoral force before Corbyn. That's why they are where they are now. Corbyn is merely an exercise in readjusting and realigning the party away from it's previous failing strategy. Now that previously centre-right candidates are voicing support for core labour principles again (anti-austerity, pro-redistribution, pro-workers rights), I'd say he's been pretty successful in that.

T-10 for PMQ

C'mon Jezza mate, up your game....

He wasn't too bad today. Fact remains Labour promised far less money for the NHS than did Cameron.

I missed it 😳 Got the time wrong

dazh, yes you are right most Labour MPs recognise he is a disaster and I can well believe most voters think the same. It is however a comment worthy rolling disaster as far as I am concerned

Labour couod have picked David not Ed and reacted to 2010 and 2015 by actually listening to what voters where telling them. The world has moved tightwards as normally happens in times of economic stress. The stress is going to get worse and imo so is the shift in the voter base.

Labour couod have picked David not Ed

Wouldn't have got them anywhere, David M was as bad, if not worse, at politics as his brother.

It's funny because the people most obsessed with him seem to be you lot.

That's not a surprise, he is currently their greatest political asset.

Labour couod have picked David not Ed and reacted to 2010 and 2015 by actually listening to what voters where telling them. The world has moved tightwards as normally happens in times of economic stress. The stress is going to get worse and imo so is the shift in the voter base.

As always you're big on sweeping statements and small on evidence. Apart from pointless whataboutery, there's no evidence D Miliband would have been any more successful than his brother. What voters were saying in the last two elections is highly debatable as evidenced by the brexit vote. Established wisdom has always been that the economy drives voting intentions, but that has been demolishd by brexit. And as for the world moving rightwards in times of economic stress, there are plenty of examples yes, but also plenty examples of the opposite happening.

You're right on one thing though, the economic stress is going to get worse, due to brexit (glad you're finally admitting this BTW!), Trump and globalisation. The outcome of this remains to be seen though.

That's not a surprise, he is currently their greatest political asset.

Yes, probably. It also shows that this could be the source of the tories future defeat. They currently reek of complacency and hubris. Brexit is the perfect example, and it will come back to bite them. The labour party is neither as weak or incompetent as everyone is currently making them out to be. The biggest barrier to their eventual revival is not Corbyn, but their ability to move on from outdated and failed New Labour stategy, and there are signs that they are finally doing that.

Fact remains Labour promised far less money for the NHS than did Cameron

Fact remains the money was conditional of finding 22bn of "savings", so does not represent a big wad of free cash.

He wasn't too bad today. Fact remains Labour promised far less money for the NHS than did Cameron.

No, jambafact.

NHS spending in 2009: 8.8% GDP
NHS spending in 2015: 6.6% GDP

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/blog/2016/01/how-does-nhs-spending-compare-health-spending-internationally

Ransos, I am sure that you have checked trends in the denominator and numerator in those figures?

@ransos we don't spend nearly enough on Healthcare, see the other thread. Our gap comes from low spending on private health care. Our (unique) approach does not integrate state and private well at all.

Newsnight, aside from Baroness Shami having gone Full Politician (Must not answer question. Must not answer question) this backdrop amused the hell out of me

[img] [/img]

Interview for those who missed it

My favourite graphic, get used to it as I'll be posting it everytime people mention income inequality (better now than under 13 years of Labour)

[img] [/img]

Supposedly it was Diane Abbott who pursueded Corbyn to change his stance on immigration despite the speech and policy having been agreed as part of the re-launch

Baroness Shami having gone Full Politician (Must not answer question. Must not answer question)

Just the other day you were criticising Corbyn for having answered a question instead of dodging. Hypocrite.

The press hate him its a disgrace the way he is portrayed

Chap' s a pillock.

My favourite graphic, get used to it as I'll be posting it everytime people mention income inequality

What's scary is that, if you are to be believed (hahahaha!!) you are in a position of making decisions on the basis of analysing information. And yet you show almost no ability to do that. For example, your "favourite graphic" does not demonstrate what you imagine it demonstrates. You need to look deeper, e.g.
[img] ?itok=KvG8N98w[/img]

Now - do you remember something that happened in 2008 that might have affected very rich peoples' incomes?

So, Diane persuaded Jezza to change position, did she?

🙂

🙂

Buggar wish I'd thought of that double entendre. Damn it. Damn it. Did think of another though.

DrJ well call me stupid but your graph shows income inequality has fallen, err wasn't that my point. Yup many finance jobs have gone and many (esp in banks) are paying 20-30% of what they where before. That's reducing inequality. The biggest driver in wealth (vs income) inequality is house prices in the South East esp London. As I posted before my daughter rented a room from a lovely old couple, retired solicitors (relatively modest jobs) and grand parents of her good friend who'd bought a house near Hampstead Heath in the 1960's now worth £4m. Is that "disgusting inequality" ?

Corbyn is a perfect example, London property plus a £1.6m pension as a result of his Westminster based job.

DrJ well call me stupid but your graph shows income inequality has fallen, err wasn't that my point.

Oh yes. The financial crisis was cunningly engineered by Cameron as a means to reduce inequality. Suddenly it all makes sense.

We didn't claim the Tories had been solely responsible for reducing it did we ? They've done their bit and most certainly are not guilty of Corbyn's charge of "creating disgusting levels of inequality in this country" - the problem is he is an old time campaigner who's record and brain are well and truely stuck in the anti-Thatcher era

That's our point. Factually income inequality has not risen under the Tories. Labour will rant on about wealth inequality instead. That's due to South East house prices which in turn is due to the success of London based aervices (eg financial, advertising, consulting) jobs whuch are available to all inc my colleagues from Wales, Scotland, Ireland and the North of England for example

Dr, careful, of the two slopes yours is the slippier!

Enlighten us on your thoughts TMH ? DrJ's slope is vertical

The Tories recent tax policies have helped too. The more they raise the tax free allowance (worth nothing to those on £125k) and cut pension tax relief and pot sizes and raise the minimum wage the more it helps reduce the gap

We didn't claim the Tories had been solely responsible for reducing it did we ?

No. But your favourite graphic shows the beginnings of PM terms, and not the more significant event which was the financial crisis. So you changed tactic by lying by omission this time around. Not sure if that counts as progress, tbh.

Dr, careful, of the two slopes yours is the slippier!

The cracked pitcher goes farthest to the well!

The tagging on the graphic is a direct responce by the BBC to the Labour charge that income inequality had got worse under the Tories. I am just using it for the same purpose.

is that the same BBC you're always claiming is biased against the Tories?

The tagging on the graphic is a direct response by the BBC to the Labour charge that income inequality had got worse under the Tories. I am just using it for the same purpose.

Don't forget that the BBC also stated that the numbers for the upper income levels couldn't be relied upon. (Those asked either misrepresent their income or don't respond). Lies, damned lies and statistics springs to mind.

I helpfully quoted the relevant section and gave a source a page back.

Jambas, the facts speak for themselves. The narrative on both income and wealthy inequality is flawed. By the looks of things, Dr is letting the desire to argue with you cloud his judgement here. He is not alone, as you mention the subject of this thread makes the same mistake.

Sandwich a perfect example then of why we should have real figures from the Government. I went back 10 pages and could not find your link btw

I am OK with Labour campaigning on income inequality but they should not make these wild and false claims about the Tories. Improve inequality by raising the tax free allowance and/or the minimum wage - do it faster than the Tories are doing. Corbyn's rhetoric is all about avarice and taking money away from those who in his view are undeserving. Plus some good old Marxist ranting.

[url= https://order-order.com/2017/01/12/corbyn-relaunch-latest-labour-lose-sunderland-stronghold-libdems/ ]Onwards to victory comrades, just not our victory[/url]

A swing of 40% to the Lib Dems in Sunderland last night. There was a time, a couple of years ago, that you could pin a red rosette to a turd and it would get elected in Sunderland - now they are getting 25% of the vote.

Expect emergency jam making from team Jezza today.

😀

A good article in yesterday's guardian by that renowned right winger [url= https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/11/labour-jeremy-corbyn-reboot-shows-why-he-has-to-go-populism ]Suzanne Moore[/url], pointing out that clinging on as 'leader', at all costs, while the Labour Party's polling remains in complete free fall is just selfish egomania!

An interesting article, but doesn't populism require a certain amount of popularity ?

This is painful to watch. Labour now dwells in a kind of limbo. Nothing can move forward until he goes, and he will only go in an electoral wipe out. This is the ultimate selfishness from someone who we are told by his groupies is some kind of saint.

Yep. The only problem that I see with this is that the conservatives need a better opposition to bring out the best in them. At the moment they are like Man U standing on the pitch watching the the opposing pub team stand around trying to lick their own elbows - they don't need to try and at some point they might just not bother trying anymore. A good government requires a good opposition to hold them to account and ask difficult questions.

Unfortunately, you can see whats going to happen next. Labour will be reduced to third or fourth place in the Copeland by-election, a seat that they've held since the dawn of time. As a reaction to this, Corbyn and his tiny circle of supporters within the parliamentary party will keep digging, and retreat yet further into their irrelevant, clueless lefty bunker.

clinging on as 'leader', at all costs, while the Labour Party's polling remains in complete free fall is just selfish egomania!

s a reaction to this, Corbyn and his tiny circle of supporters within the parliamentary party

Has militant done this to Blair i can only imagine the reaction

he wont the election twice support him or join another party but dont constantly undermine him and then blame him for the dire electoral consequences of a divided party.

Morning Comrade. We've missed you......

[img] [/img]

😆

So... seriously mate... your opinions on the 're-brand'? A triumph? A clear message those pesky traitors/blairites/closet tories should get behind, and sell to voters on the doorstep?

And how do you think that Labour is going to do in the upcoming Copeland by-election? Think Jeremy's message is going to play well in a working class constituency where the major employers are the nuclear industry?

no I think the party is screwed but my point remains that the PLP are trying to ignore the party[ and now the leader essentially] and the ones doing the most damage to the party whilst syaing its all his fault

You cannot ignore the party memberships wishes - its a democracy and you list so suck it up and do your best rather than destroy the party to prove you were right- whilst blaming him for this.

There are no winners here but what the PLP is doing ensures disaster and compromise seems somewhat unlikely

as I said in the vote i dont much rate corbyn but i despise the way the PLP think they can overrule the party.

I am sure loyal labour supporters like yourself have done all you can to make sure we lose there so you can blame corbyn for it- tirelessly working to ensure defeat rather than victory but its all his fault eh
I imagine you will successfully shoot the party in the foot and not take responsibility for it

as i said no winners here except Tories

footonthemountains - Member
The press hate him its a disgrace the way he is portrayed

As in... Jeremy says some things that are stupid and is reported as saying some things that are stupid?

I suppose that boils down to what you mean when you refer to 'The Party'? Those who you maintain are apparently being ignored? You seem to think that these are lifelong labour members with firmly held beliefs, who have been out there campaigning for a labour victory?

With the greatest of respect fella, this is a hopelessly naive point of view. This "Party' you so hopelessly romanticise, who's views must be honoured above all else are in fact....

[url= https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8115/28559970906_2f1bfb64f3_b.jp g" target="_blank">https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8115/28559970906_2f1bfb64f3_b.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/KvKjku ]Ernie-iphone[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/14162682@N00/ ]bin lid[/url], on Flickr

Thats why the PLP has just given up, and is just keeping quiet. Because they know that theres nothing they can do. As the party has been successfully colonised, and this will only change once they've ushered in electoral armageddon, and maybe not even then. Eds gift of a new internal party democracy has been weaponised by the hard left, and some naive idiots, and turned against the party itself. Thats all thats happened. Not some sudden thirst for lefty nonsense in the general population. As labours present polling clearly demonstrates.

I have quite a bit to do with the local Labour Party councillors (I design their comms stuff for them) and they all tell me the same thing. These influx of 'members' have never been seen. They don't go to meetings. They don't campaign. they're not active in any way. All they've done is join, then voted for Jeremy. Thats it. Full stop. End of story.

If you believe anything different, then I say that thats purely because you'd like to believe that. The reality is quite different.

Junkyard the problem is Corbyn undermines his own Shadow Cabinet, this week it was reported that the Shadow defence secretary visited troops abroad in eastern Europe and gave them his support, only for Corbyn to come out and say they shouldn't be there and he had issues with Nato. If your boss regularly undermines you publicly in any walk of life then things aren't ever going to end well.

Tristram Hunt has resigned (its weird he always struck me as a tory anyway)

by-elections-a-go-go

And another one bites the dust....

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38608825 ]Labour's Tristram Hunt quitting as MP to head V&A Museum[/url]

Somewhat predictably. There's bound to be a mass exodus of MP's who are just tired of banging their head against a brick wall, faced with the impossible task of following a clueless leader into political oblivion

Thats another by-election for Labour to lose, and Theresa increases here majority again. For her, Jeremy truly is the gift that just keeps giving

Another talented front bench Labour MP goes. Being in perpetual opposition is soul destroying as you can achieve nothing. As a back bench MP rather than shadow cabinet member money becomes more of an issue too with many more attractive jobs available outside. With the deselection purge being driven by the leadership it's no surprise people are making the sensible choice of standing down.

Hilary Benn next ? Corbyn has said he will not "interfere" in the deselection campaign.