Jeremy Corbyn

a man to grub about in the gutter for votes

As if any politician does anything else?

First people slam him for sticking to principles and not winning votes, now he's being slammed for trying to win votes and not sticking to principles?

Are you saying that he is not The Messiah, just a naughty boy?

The somewhat belated change in position is to reflect the concerns of the people in constituencies who traditionally vote labour. His core vote.

Its definitely progress. In the past a London-centric labour party, typified by Gordon Brown, just airily dismissed any concerns about immigration as racist and xenophobic. In some cases it is, but in an awful lot of cases, it isn't at all. Its far more nuanced than that. So the debate has to be too. Whereas in the past it has been black or white. You support unlimited immigration, or you're a racist. Which is nonsense!

Holy shit, a positive comment. Who are you and how do you have binners' login?

The Sky TV news woman is not great is she?

I'm welcoming his long overdue engagement with the country outside Islington Molls 😀

Its definitely progress.

He sounded ok on R4 this morning. (I thought he was boycotting "Today"?)

To be fair, it's not only Islington that contains middle class lefties is it?

I know Molls. I was using it as symbolic of a Guadianista mindset within the Labour Party that is totally dismissive of any opinion that is to the right of Polly Toynbee, and which is becoming less and less representative of the genuine (non-racist) concerns of their core vote. hence their polling being in freefall.

For Corbyn not to change his position, which was patently ridiculous (supporting free movement, without necessarily any access to the single market? Seriously?) would be electoral suicide.

Seems the penny has finally dropped

Something did need to be done, absolutely.

Not quite sure about this particular policy though - I'd rather they dealt with free movement better than by simply ending it. And I doubt I'm alone on the left in thinking that - so if they succeed in rescuing votes from UKIP and Tories this way, they might end up losing others to Lib Dems.

Not quite sure about this particular policy though - I'd rather they dealt with free movement better than by simply ending it.

Good job thats not what he's proposing that then, isn't it? What he's proposing is that 'unlimited' immigration be addressed. I'm sure he's painfully aware of the fine line he needs to tread. And its a difficult one. Hence what he most definitely isn't proposing is an end to immigration. If he did, then given his previously stated opinions, it just wouldn't be credible. It's questionable enough as it is?

They're 'discussing' it on Five Live now. There's a shouty, angry bloke saying that all immigrants are terrorists. I doubt he'll be persuaded to vote for Jezza 😀

CTK, did you even attempt to read what I said? Note my first two words, they are q important.

Unlike you I will focus on what he does say. My comments last night relate to how I would feel if he did indeed flip on immigration. Frankly, I don't swallow the idea that Corbyn is a conviction politician, but immigration was one area that he could have proved me wrong. I respect him 100% for not bowing to the xenophobic pressures that he current faces. If he does relent then, yes, shame on him...but he will have at least proved me correct.

Not that you will read this, but I have no need to define myself/attach myself to any political party. I am in favour of FoM and do not agree with the Tories on net migration target either. I find the attitudes of Brexshiteers on immigration shameful and have said so many times. I will continue to criticise any party that ignores the benefits of immigration in favour or using immigrants as a scapegoat for wider issues that have very different causes. I hope that this is ok with you....

FWIW, his comments so far are easy to digest. Total bllx on maximum wages and total confusion on FoM. We shall see what he says about immigration later I believe.

I am in favour of FoM

In favour of FoM worldwide or would you currently limit FoM to movement within the EU?

Total bllx on maximum wages

however according to yougov

max wages polls very well with
scotts, working class and older voters, 3 groups he needs to find the corbyn love

In favour of FoM worldwide or would you currently limit FoM to movement within the EU?

Good point. We should definitely shape our society to accommodate the wishes of Wayne Rooney. It's so obvious once you think about it!

When the French introduced the 66% tax rate for earnings over 1m€ pa footballers where explicitly exlcuded. A real WTF decision. Policy initially declared illegal (75% tax rate) and then changed to an employer not employee tax then abandoned after 2 years as totally counter productive.

EDIT: such a maxium wage policy would just create a huge industry in tax swerves, a person can start a business and sell it for billions but can't earn £1m pa ? Football would be decimated. All joking aside it would be a PR disaster for Labour. Companies would simply relocate their senior management abroad.

Ultimately both. But obviously the latter is - or should I say, was - a priority

I posted this in the EU thread, it came from the Leave Campaign directors blog. Corbyn is finally starting to understand he is the political elite and he needs to listen to voters.

This was brought home to me very starkly one day. I was conducting focus groups of Conservative voters. I talked with them about immigration for 20 minutes (all focus groups now start with immigration and tend to revert to it within two minutes unless you stop them). We then moved onto the economy. After two minutes of listening I was puzzled and said – who did you vote for? Labour they all said. An admin error by the company meant that I had been talking to core Labour voters, not core Tory voters. On the subject of immigration, these working class / lower middle class people were practically indistinguishable from all the Tories and UKIP people I had been talking to.

however according to yougov

max wages polls very well with
scotts, working class and older voters, 3 groups he needs to find the corbyn love

Indeed, but I fail to see the moral case for equality of outcome. There is no case IME for restricting what people earn through honest means. That is theft. There is a case for managing the outcome, which is what Rawls and others tried to address back in the 70s

What he's proposing is that 'unlimited' immigration be addressed.

In the spirit of reasoned debate not pedantry:

I'm not watching the interview but I assumed that free movement = unlimited immigration... So addressing unlimited immigration is adding controls, which means movement is no longer free.

It depends on what kind of controls though. Certainly immigrants being shipped over to cut costs would seem to be a bad thing. Unless it's the only way a business can compete.. but then you have a bigger problem..

An admin error by the company meant that I had been talking to core Labour voters, not core Tory voters. On the subject of immigration, these working class / lower middle class people were practically indistinguishable from all the Tories and UKIP people I had been talking to.

On the subject of immigration, these working class / lower middle class people were practically indistinguishable from all the Tories and UKIP people I had been talking to.

yes, sadly people still believe the lies, so rather than help them understand the truth, better just to pander to their fears?

There is no case IME for restricting what people earn through honest means.

I can't see how max wage would be possibe or even mean much if it were. Pretty easy to make the high flyers shareholders and give them dividends, isn't it?

"Ultimately both."

So you want freedom of movement with Islamic State? Or would you limit it to a subset of countries you recognise?

What problems do you forsee with freedom of movement with Somalia and Eritrea?

Pretty easy to make the high flyers shareholders and give them dividends, isn't it?

I know people who used to receive a very generous "curtain allowance" as a part of their remuneration package.

In short, maximum wage cap is just pointless posturing. Yeah, Jezza's gonna stick it to the man, man! Or not....

So you want freedom of movement with Islamic State? Or would you limit it to a subset of countries you recognise?

What problems do you forsee with freedom of movement with Somalia and Eritrea?

I'll rephrase Aspirationally both.
There comes a point where we have to believe that in a few generations the notion of nationality should be reserved for sport. The answer to IS ultimately is not walls it's integration. We are not talking tomorrow or the next 5 years. In the late 70's who could have imagined that people who grew up behind the iron curtain could work side by side people in the UK, that working across Europe was simple and easy, that we had shed some of our nationalistic tendencies and embraced each other.

I don't think anyone would dispute any of that.

THM didn't say he supported freedom of movement *at some point in the future when circumstances make it practical* he said he supported freedom of movement now.

I think that's worth exploring.

Yes I do OOB - of course freedom of movement is actually a misleading term, since it is not strictly-speaking 100% free.

As with the EU, there are certain restrictions, rules and obligations that need to be followed. Those do not change. FoM does not mean no control - that is simply a lie fostered by Brexshiteers.

I don't think anyone would dispute any of that.

I'm in favour of FoM too, but I at least recognise that there is concern out there which needs to be addressed. That concern is ill founded and borne mostly of ignorance in my opinion, but I can't deny it exists, and to that extent politicians of whatever colour need to address it. I've got far more faith in the likes of Corbyn and his colleagues in the labour party to address it in a thoughtful, nuanced and sustainable fashion than the ToryKips, who will just come out with the usual dog whistle reactionary bile.

That concern is ill founded and borne mostly of ignorance in my opinion, but I can't deny it exists,

True on both counts.

and to that extent politicians of whatever colour need to address it. I've got far more faith in the likes of Corbyn and his colleagues in the labour party to address it in a thoughtful, nuanced and sustainable fashion than the ToryKips, who will just come out with the usual dog whistle reactionary bile.

...is where it gets interesting today. I respect Jezza for his "conviction" on this issue. Hence, as I suggested last night, shame on him (and others) if that conviction is sacrificed today at the altar of xenophobia.

We need better from ALL our politicians. History has clear lessons for those who bow down to the xenophobes/isolationists/ and ultimately racists

He's in an impossible position.
They've got to win over 3 completely different demographics.

1) Traditional labour voters who are turning UKIP because they're convinced that their problems are caused by immigration.
2) Middle class lefties who quite like Corbyn, but are afraid to admit it because their Tory mates will scoff.
3) Swing voter nimbys who want above all else, not to lose what they've got.

1 Want Brexit because they falsely believed that it would fix their problems with immigration and restore a sense of Britishness
2 Don't want Brexit because they feel European and like free movement for themselves, although I think some of Corbyn's anti-EU points do hold some water for them.
3 Did want brexit, because they thought that the EU was brining them down, but now are scared because the £ has dropped so much and all the brexiteers are unlikable fools.

ok - lots of generalisations :), but it's impossible to balance those groups effectively. Especially when 1 and 3 want Trident, most wont vote based on train re-nationalisation, etc, etc.

IMO, Labour need to find a really effective way of convincing group 1 that they are the only party that really understands them and will fight for their quality of life. That message hasn't got through yet.

Resource scarcity means that complete freedom of movement is an utterly flawed concept and will result in greater conflict.

Or is the modern liberal idea of FoM only for lovely educated, middle class folk, but screw the rest?

freedom of movement is actually a misleading term, since it is not strictly-speaking 100% free.

As with the EU, there are certain restrictions, rules and obligations that need to be followed.

So countries outside the EU are racist because they don't have free movement, but the EU which also doesn't have free movement is not racist.

...and THM isn't racist even thought you are opposed to free movement with most of the world, and even the 27 countries you are happy to have FoM with don't really have FoM.

Resource scarcity means that complete freedom of movement is an utterly flawed concept and will result in greater conflict.

That's my view. People in countries with enough to eat, shelter and good healthcare who advocate FoM are either fools, saints or virtue signaling.

Its a bit early to be drinking..... 😯

Happy to have a sensible dialogue, if you want to re-phrase ^

BTW, what time is Jezza up? Is it on TV?

outofbreath - good line for the philosophy class...
but as much as I really don't want to get bogged down in the racism part, people with racist beliefs were part of the group who wanted to end the bloody foreigners coming to the UK and leave tapped into that. They wanted to get out of the UK for a variety of reasons a few of them were racist.
Voting and wanting to end freedom of movement for racist reasons is racists.

outofbreath - good line for the philosophy class...

In philosophical terms it's simple. National borders are ludicrous.

It's at a selfish practical level where they start to make a lot of sense if you're lucky enough to be sitting on the "nice" side of the border.

and in reality this is not a today then tomorrow sort of thing.

Countries with maximum wage caps -
1 Cuba
2 Venezuela
3 Erm. Sorry. There isn't one. (AFAIK)

Do "maximum wage" caps come in various colours? Hopefully not the wide brim version seen with the "Lets make US great again" versions...

A nice navy or Paris blue in large please...with "Yes please" on the back above the adjuster strap

Is Corbyn really proposing a maximum wage? I doubt it. What he may be proposing is punitive policy mechanisms to discourage ridiculous inequalities between those at the top and bottom. I can think of a number of ways it could be achieved without setting an absolute maximum limit.

Not sure how this will play though. On the one hand if you ask the average joe in the street if top bosses are paid too much, they'll say yes, absolutely. On the other the rabid headlines and loony left BS will drown out whatever else he has to say on immigration, brexit etc. Seems to me Corbyn would much rather be labelled a loony left rabble rouser than an elitist middle class metropolitan. And if the effect on Premier League footballers is the best the likes of Jamba can come up with to counter it, then maybe he's onto something.

teamhurtmore - Member

CTK, did you even attempt to read what I said? Note my first two words, they are q important.

The first 2 words you wrote in that previous post "if true" make no difference to my reply to your post (did you even read my post...)

My point is that its hypocritical for a Tory (albeit a shy one) to say Labour are scrabbling around at the feet of xenophobes. The Tories, the Tory press do that. Corbyn does not, Labour's new policy does not.

If you are not a Tory voter of course I am entirely wrong. In fact I hope for your sake you are not. Being partly culpable for Brexit must be a bitter pill to swallow for all pro remain Tory voters.

If you are not a [s]Tory voter[/s][b]Corbyn supporter[/b] of course I am entirely wrong. In fact I hope for your sake you are not. Being partly culpable for Brexit must be a bitter pill to swallow for all pro remain [s]Tory voters[/s] [b]Corbyn supporters[/b].

Is Corbyn really proposing a maximum wage? I doubt it. What he may be proposing is punitive policy mechanisms to discourage ridiculous inequalities between those at the top and bottom. I can think of a number of ways it could be achieved without setting an absolute maximum limit.

I'd be very excited if I was on minimum wage employed by a Premiership Club

Corbyn's relaunch speech and Brexit stance has been totally overshadowed by this maximum wage story. He's in the headlines but not for the reasons the press office wanted.

Is Corbyn really proposing a maximum wage?

I don't think even he knows, it was made up on the hoof, so there is no chance for the electorate. Meanwhile the vacuum of anything more than a soundbite gives everyone else the chance to define what it may be and explain what a terrible idea that is.

He is quite simply the worst Labour party leader ever.

Not sure how this will play though. On the one hand if you ask the average joe in the street if top bosses are paid too much, they'll say yes,

And this is what he needs to play to. Who cares if it is impossible to implement, you know the intentions and intentions are what people vote on.
As you say though the media will twist anything he does or says. For real democracy to exist we would need to scrap politically biased media.

Corbyn went off-piste as usual in responce to a question. It's not Laboir policy but he said "they where looking at it"

According to Sky the two countries with one are Cuba and Egypt

big_n_daft - Member

If you are not a Tory voterCorbyn supporter of course I am entirely wrong. In fact I hope for your sake you are not. Being partly culpable for Brexit must be a bitter pill to swallow for all pro remain Tory voters Corbyn supporters.

is equally true

Tories got elected with a pledge to have a referendum therefore Tory voters voted to have an EU referendum. Labour voters voted for remain at 65%. So not really.

What about linking top earners in a company with the lowest? That's a bit more widespread isn't it? IIRC the USA used to have it?

Has he called for a maximum wage like the headlines say? I just heard him say we are looking at it.

What about linking top earners in a company with the lowest? That's a bit more widespread isn't it? IIRC the USA used to have it?

Seems a better idea but I imagine it would result in more workers being recruited through agencies.

Agencies need looking at IMO. That would be a vote winner.

Corbyn went off-piste as usual in responce to a question

No he didn't. He was asked a question at the end of a long interview and gave a brief answer to it. The press chose to report that issue rather than the bulk of the interview. Big surprise.

I'd imagine that being a press officer for Labour at the moment and watching Corbyn must be like being a United fan when we had Fabien Barthez as a goalkeeper.

Hang on a minute... you're the goalkeeper..... why are you stood by the half-way line? WTF are you actually doing?!!!!

It is unfortunate that a resonable portion of the population doesn't want to even move towards that and in fact running away from it.

They can run, but they can't hide...

Wouldnt' be fair for a cleaner of one company to be paid more because the company is doing well*. It's not likely to be doing well because its offices are cleaner...?

* or would it? Genuine question. Could be argued either way.

What about linking top earners in a company with the lowest? That's a bit more widespread isn't it?

As well as agencies, it could also drive one person ltd companies, which are already very prevalent in certain industries. Could also result in companies splitting up into loads of smaller ones, with the big earners outside of the UK.

Wouldnt' be fair for a cleaner of one company to be paid more because the company is doing well*. It's not likely to be doing well because its offices are cleaner...?

* or would it? Genuine question. Could be argued either way.

You can't have pay based on "fairness" because nobody can agree what fair is.

Companies just have to pay the market rate to fill the position.

Cleaners are utterly mission critical in a cleaning company - they don't get paid more than the non-mission critical staff, like the HR team.

@molgrips I have commented on that issue before. Either all low paid jobs will be eliminated and outscourced or the senior management will all work for a service company. Or they will just go elsewhere. As long as I know the US has had no such policy, top management pay in the US is much much higher than the UK.

DrJ that's why senior politicans used to being in the limelight don't answer questions. Do you remember that piece of Milliband saying the same thing repeatedly to every question ? That's why they do it. Corbyn was telling us what he really thinks on the issue, sadly for Labour it's unworkable.

Ctk,

They do make a difference and yes - hence the reply
I dislike xenophobia full stop. It doesn't matter what affinity to a party the person has
Correct, you are entirely wrong. Well said.
I have no culpability for Brexshit. I was a remainer.

Corbyn was telling us what he really thinks on the issue, sadly for Labour it's unworkable.

I'd imagine a simple wage cap would be unworkable yes.

But that's no reason to give up on sharing the wealth.

A £10 min wage would be more interesting.

Has he called for a maximum wage like the headlines say? I just heard him say we are looking at it.

If the headlines say it, what makes you think you can trust your ears?

@thm The first 2 words don't make a difference.

Do you agree anyone who voted Tory at last election is partly culpable for brexit?

You carry on jumping on Labours immigration policy from your neutral standpoint.

They do, they set the context and makes point 3 redundant
No, that is illogical. People who voted Leave are responsible whatever, if any, party allegiance they have.
I wait to see what Labour's new policy is. Hence, "if true" remember?

They don't because Labour's new position is not xenophobic. You read the articles linked so you know that.

Tory voters in the last election voted for amongst other things an EU referendum and to get immigration in the 10s of thousands. Anyone who voted Tory voted for these things.

A £10 min wage would be more interesting.

Yup, it really needs to be regional though due to differences in cost of living. Needs to be fully implemented re "costs" deducted and the gig economy needs to comply. In fact I'd start with making the gig economy compliant with existing minimum wage and employment rights.

I haven't heard his latest proposals so cannot comment, but I hope that you are correct. As I said, I applaud Jezza's resistance to xenophobic pressure and hope that he remains true to his conviction here.

You are correct the Tories promised a referendum (tick) and to cut immigration (cross). Your point?

...is on the last few posts thm. If only you had read
them 😉

The 10s of thousands target became a par for a decent amount of immigrants to accept. Was very damaging to remain campaign Imo.

Yes setting a target for immigration was a Remain disaster as it simply highlighted the fact there is no control over immigration from the EU. Had there been no target the Govt could have just said, yes we meant it to be 200,000 and growing.

I have, they don't make sense.

The target was pretty stupid, correct, and they have missed it by miles. I am unconcerned about it since I am not in favour of the policy. In fact, I am pleased that they have been unable to deliver on that commitment.

If we had voted remain, we would have been part of the single market with all that that implies. What the Tories said about controlling immigration was irrelevant to the debate.

Yup, it really needs to be regional though due to differences in cost of living. Needs to be fully implemented re "costs" deducted and the gig economy needs to comply. In fact I'd start with making the gig economy compliant with existing minimum wage and employment rights.

Hmm.. so someone as Tory as you supports this kind of social policy. Interesting (genuinely). So why doesn't the Tory party implement such things?

If you are typical of the membership, then is it really just big business calling the shots? Is that the real problem with our political society currently?

Tories got elected with a pledge to have a referendum therefore Tory voters voted to have an EU referendum. Labour voters voted for remain at 65%. So not really.

Labour got elected with a pledge to have a referendum, they just didn't hold one.

I have no culpability for Brexshit

however we have a collective responsibility to make Brexshit work, JC's contribution is to look so incompetent it's clear that May will form the next government whilst in the negotiations

the real disaster for remain was from Juncker

“British voters have to know that there will be no kind of renegotiation. We have concluded a deal with the prime minister. He got the maximum he could receive and we gave the maximum we could give. So there will be no renegotiation, not on the agreement we found in February, nor as far as any kind of treaty negotiations are concerned.”

We do have control over EU immigration. It is factually incorrect to say that we don't. Hence my comment that FOM is a potentially misleading term. QED.

I agree wih the collective responsibility bit too. The decision has been made and needs to be implemented. Jezza needs to stop fanning around with illogical statements like this morning. labour are spilt on the EU and immigration as are the Tories. He can't hide that fact but still needs to make a leadership stand. So far that has been to put the xenophobic in their place. For that he should be applauded.

Collective responsibility also means getting on with A50. Leave the posturing to Fallon.

In fact I'd start with making the gig economy compliant with existing minimum wage and employment rights.

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If you want to watch Jezza's speech he'll be on Sky in a few moments. Apparantly he will talk about the maximum wage, added at the last minute or always planned. You tell me 😉

Loving the hysteria on this maximum wage thing. Did everyone miss the thing about him relaunching himself as a left populist? He has no intention of having a maximum wage as policy. He has every intention of lining himself up as an anti-establishment figure who speaks for normal people against the excesses of billionaires and corporate bosses who think they're worth a salary of 70M a year.

He does need to tweak his language though. Instead of saying 'we're looking at a maximum wage', he should just say, 'the fat cats are paid too much and are not worth it'. It would have the same effect without the implied policy commitments. Long way to go before he's a British Bernie Sanders, but at least heading in the right direction.

Here's the immigration bit:

..can't see too much change so far.

Glad he made the point that public services are not under pressure because of immigration. Tick.

"we support fair rules and reasonable management of migration" - err, that's it. Cross or perhaps question mark, since it doesn't mean anything

Ooh, so seems like a hint that no company with a CEO earning more than £300k ish would be awarded a gov contract, hmmmm......