Jeremy Corbyn

Heres what you could have won:

the tories are obviously in dissaray over what is looking like an increasingly impossible task, just a shame that labour cant deal with their own issues!

@kimbers I do have to sincerely congratulate you on a positive attitude, no amount of reality is going to deter you 😉

My prediction: no general election in 2017, Article 50 in Feb 2017, Brexit completed before Feb 2019

Tom Watson. Excellent speech, standing ovation when he said Labour shouod celebrate the achievements of the last Labour Government and not spend the time doing it down. Corbyn at rooted to his seat barely a token clap. Watson acknowledged it is the private sector which pays for schools and hospitals, the electorate know that and Labour must too.

Of course Corbyn and everyone knows that. Ccorvyn's not advocating nationalising everything now is he?

Jamba - I did like the line that [i] "the eleven years of Labour government between 1997 and 2008 were a completely unbroken period of economic growth"[/i]

😉

I thought Corbyn was at his best and pretty good. The first half of Tom Watson's I thought was dire and nearly stopped watching, but when he started talking up the Blair/Brown years I actually got goose bumps and it seemed to set the place alight. Glad I stuck with it.

Wonder if the plan is to sideline Corbyn and set campaign strategy without consulting him.

"Jamba - I did like the line that "the eleven years of Labour government between 1997 and 2008 were a completely unbroken period of economic growth"

You might call 11 years of growth a 'boom' but it can't have been 'cos both booms and busts had ended... 🙂

Seriously though, bigging up Labour's record in office is the right strategy. Maybe if Milliband had done that he'd be PM right now. Telling voters the last time your party was in power was a disaster isn't really a vote winner.

You couldn't make it up:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/28/len-mccluskey-labour-deputy-leader-tom-watson-unite-union

Telling voters the last time your party was in power was a disaster isn't really a vote winner.

It isn't rocket science or a political thriller worthy of the Ides of March is it ? 😉

McCluscy doesn't seem to realise that the Unions pushing around Labour is as toxic as Sturgeon saying she could make Milliband Prime Minister.

@ninfan yes indeed, there is a joke in asset management that if you can't find an index you have out-performed you should't be in the business. 1997-2008 we'll just ignore 2009-10 (due to media bias ?)

@ninfan yes indeed, there is a joke in asset management that if you can't find an index you have out-performed you should't be in the business.

Most AM firms shouldn't be in business then - especially when costs are included in performance. Its a bit like brexit, all the data shows that AM fail to achieve sustained outperformance and yet anecdotally I have never met a PM who has underperformed!! Odd that...

“Capitalism is not the enemy, money is not the problem, business isn’t bad. The real world is more complicated than that, as any practical trade unionist will tell you.

“Businesses are where people work. The private sector generates money to pay for our schools and hospitals. I don’t say this to win elections. I say it because it’s true, and people know that it’s true. That is why it wins elections.”

Burn him!

Who forgot the magic autocue spray to cleanse this speech? Outrageous, no wonder Lennie was so unhappy.

“It confused me, it seemed to be saying that New Labour and the ‘third way’ was the way forward again. Now, it doesn’t surprise me because Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell are putting forward an alternative. The right wing of the party have got no vision so they are going back to yesteryear,”

His irony filter seems to be broken. Because having Derek Hatton back at the conference, saying how chuffed he is that Jeremy, Len, John and all their Union chums are now dictating policy will have every voter welcoming in this bright new [s]return to 1979[/s] future come the next general election

having Derek Hatton back at the conference

Would that be the Derek Hatton of yesteryear or the Property Developer version of today? Not that I'm defending him, I can't stand the bloke, but if you're going to use him as a stick with which to beat Corbyn, then that should be the 2016 version of him not the 1980s one.

then that should be the 2016 version of him not the 1980s one.

has he changed his political views then ???

has he changed his political views then ???

No idea. Not sure being a property developer and having your own media company is particularly compatible with being a 1980s trotskyist revolutionary though.

His irony filter seems to be broken. Because having Derek Hatton back at the conference, saying how chuffed he is that Jeremy, Len, John and all their Union chums are now dictating policy will have every voter welcoming in this bright new return to 1979 future come the next general election

Yeah but don't forget, to the bright young things of Momental, anything further back than 1990 is pre-history shrouded in the mists of time before time.

Nice to see such enthusiasm getting ready for the condemnation of historic repetion...

to the bright young things of Momental, anything further back than 1990 is pre-history shrouded in the mists of time before time.

Or maybe they're more interested in looking forward? It seems to me that the only people banging on about the 1970s/80s are the ones who are still stuck in the late 90s. Blairism/3rd Way is now a 20 year old philosophy. Is it just possible that things might have moved on since then?

Derek Hatton. He does look better with the beard. Funny how once a lefty politician gets off that gravy train he truns into a property developer.

Here is a hint for the Labour supporters, Hatton is electoral poison.

@dazh free money (citizens income), £500bn of borrowing and nationalisation is most definitely the past. It's an electoral open goal to point out that the kids all for it have not witnessed the disaster that Labour in the '70/80's where. IMF bailouts amd all.

Here is a hint for the Labour supporters, Hatton is electoral poison.

But, daaaaaaamn he looks HOT! 😀

Baroness Chakrabati appointment to the Shadow Cabinet expected to be confired very shortly.

Unelected and rewarded for her whitewash with a £75k-£100k pa job and a life peerage. Corbyn's politics in action

I disagree on UBI btw, wherever its been trialed , its been a success with productivity increases and econimic gains throughout the board.
Trialed i seem to recall in a district of Holland, Canada and i think Nigeria

free money (citizens income)

Funny I can't remember UBI being done in the past? Or are you counting Thatcher deliberately throwing millions onto the scrapheap and making it easy to claim the dole as a citizens 'income'?

£500bn of borrowing

The bank bailouts would suggest it is still a very modern concept.

and nationalisation is most definitely the past.

All the big privatisations happened over 20 years ago, and have in most cases proven to be an abject failure characterised by under-investment, incompetence, and monopolist companies ripping off consumers to line their shareholders pockets.

So what is the future? More socialism for the rich I suppose?

It seems to me that the only people banging on about the 1970s/80s are the ...

.. Tories who want to twist everything into tribal attacks on Labour without any real substance...?

Tories who want to twist everything into tribal attacks on Labour without any real substance...?

could be Molgrips... could be

or more worryingly perhaps even..

The sort of people who saw that their mate John got knocked off his bike..
They discovered that John was eating a sandwich whilst riding along, so to avoid getting knocked off their bike themselves they have decided never to eat sandwiches again

Anyway... Tory party conference next. Everyones been focussing on labour this week, which has all been fun and games, but never underestimate the appetite of the Tory party to start a civil war over Europe. I suspect thats the reason we've heard very little capitalising on the bickering in the labour party, which given the apocalyptic forecasts, hasn't actually been that bad

I expect to hear the words 'Brexit means Brexit' abut 90 million times from Theresa. I expect that the more reasoned cameroony wing will be arguing for a 'soft' Brexit involving staying part of the single market, with free movement, while the rabid right wing mentalists will be demanding that we carpet bomb Dresden (again)

I like to ride up a steep rocky climb by my house. It's hard, and I failed at first. However I didn't conclude that it was stupid and give up MTBing. I kept trying til I got it right.

We do this often in real life. So why would we conclude Socialism is bad simply because a particular set of governments failed 30 years ago?

Wait, I know this one - it's because people with a vested interest in the failure of Socialism have managed to fool those who have a vested interest in its success.

Well, it's working a treat in Venezuela.

Oh...hold on.....

I like to ride up a steep rocky climb by my house. It's hard, and I failed at first. However I didn't conclude that it was stupid and give up MTBing. I kept trying til I got it right.

CaptainFlashheart - Member
Well, it's working a treat in Venezuela.
Oh...hold on.....

Big success on the Soviet Union, too. And China, where they've adopted, er, Capitalism as an engine of growth...

I'm not talking about communism, obviously.

I thought you were about to launch into a pro-Brexit monologue for a minute.

More likely to be a pro EU metaphor.. it all depends on what the top of the hill means to you. For me, it means working together with our neighbours and having open doors. To others maybe it means standing alone?

Wait - hold on a minute.

Is all this argument over socialism simply a mis-understanding of the definition of the word?

We do this often in real life. So why would we conclude Socialism is bad simply because a particular set of governments failed 30 years ago?

Read [url= https://www.amazon.co.uk/Animal-Farm-Penguin-Modern-Classics/dp/0141182709 ]this[/url] it will help explain.

I despise the tories and what they stand for, however I'm not stupid enough to think that Trotsky socialism will work

I'm not stupid enough to think that Trotsky socialism will work

Me neither.

I think we do have a communication problem, because that's not what I mean.

but never underestimate the appetite of the Tory party to start a civil war over Europe

Indeed. If anyone thought the brexit vote was going to put to bed tory divisions over Europe, they were sadly mistaken. Ironically I think it could make them worse. It's a massive opportunity for the labour party. If labour can maintain a semblance of unity, agree a line of attack on brexit around retention of free movement/membership of the single market, then they can expose tory divisions and construct a popular view of tory incompetence and division dragging the country down a brexit hole that they themselves created.

Funny to think that a couple of months ago everyone was praising the tories for sorting themselves out and installing May in contrast to the labour chaos, and now the situation could well be reversed.

It's a massive opportunity for the labour party.

Not really because Labour voters are as split as the Tories over this.

Indeed everyone is spilt on EU (and on the race issue that lies underneath). If Jezza is sensible he can "make" this an issue for the Tories and that should be very easy to do. Theresa has her hands full with the three buffoons. Ok, to keep you enemies close but it can easily backfire. We shall see...

Re UBI - (1) I would like to see the evidence that trials have been 100% successful and (2) as someone who is sypathetic to the idea, I think you will find that Labour do not believe in UBI in its true sense as a substitute to welfare/benefits but as a complement/addition to it. As an employer I am largely unsympathetic to that idea especially if it is dressed up as UBI.

OOI, what is the Labour position of Europe?

If Jezza is sensible he can "make" this an issue for the Tories and that should be very easy to do.

Yeah, just present a clear vision of what Labour want and unite the party behind it.. oh wait..

Re UBI - (1) I would like to see the evidence that trials have been 100% successful

Also define success - I have a feeling that one of its key benefits may be hard to actually measure in quantitative terms.

Tell me more....I am all ears mol

Greater public happiness...

If Jezza is sensible he can "make" this an issue for the Tories and that should be very easy to do.

Just as the tories did with potraying the deficit as a result of labour overspending, brexit is labour's opportunity to do the same. As the brexit cluster**** develops and things start unravelling (they already are and we haven't even said we're leaving yet), all labour have to do is say 'this is their mess, and they're incapable of cleaning it up', and everything bad that happens over the next 4 years can be explained with this one simple message.

dazh UBI is just today's name for the old fashioned left wing give away paid for by someone else or maybe that's the McDonnell magic as it has to be paid for by no one ? UBI and unlimited immigration (remember Corbyn is ok with that), what could possibly go wrong ?

Socialism as proposed by Corbyn and McDonnell isn't working anywhere, imho nor can it possibly work unkess you have a totally closed economy. Even China doesn't have fhe sort of Marxist economy McDonnell is after.

You'd only get greater public happiness if people could give up work. I'm deffo one of those people who could afford to live in sort of "Good Life" manner on a small state handout but I couldn't give up work because I couldn't be sure UBI would continue. So I'd end up getting given some cash which was taxed back away from me.

The biggest advantage is the simplicity that allows a load of civil servants to be sacked and savings made but I fear that might not happen in reality.

Dazh there won't be a GE before 2020 for the exact reason that the Tories won't allow one as it would deteriortae into a "Brexit is going to be a disaster" shouting match. Execute A50 in 2017, all done by 2019 and then in 2020 you have real facts to evaluate. Add in my scneario that by that point you'll have had huge economic issues in Europe and the scenario is that Brexit and the UK look golden. Job's a good 'un

Execute A50 in 2017, all done by 2019

It's for the other thread, but do you really believe that's going to happen? I thought I was a dreamer!

UBI is just today's name for the old fashioned left wing give away paid for by someone else

Or it's a potential solution to the problem of keeping the population occupied in a future world where technology, AI and mechanisation begin to replace people's jobs across huge swathes of the economy.

dazh UBI is just today's name for the old fashioned left wing give away paid for by someone else

No, it's using public resources to make the country a better place. But Tories be Tories - "THIS IS ALL MINE YOU'RE GETTING IT GO **** YOURSELF!"

Socialism as proposed by Corbyn and McDonnell isn't working anywhere

Bollocks. Nationalised rail? Works nicely in lots of places. Places whose rail services we go on about how great they are.

Remind me again what Corbyn's proposing Jam?

You'd only get greater public happiness if people could give up work

No.. it's more subtle than that. With UBI, the balance of power shifts from employers to employees, at the lower end of the job market. Shit job? Abusive exploitative boss? You can simply leave then look for another. So employers have to make their jobs more attractive by being better employers.

You think Sports Direct would've happened if the staff could've just walked out?

molgrips - Member
Greater public happiness...

I said tell me more not less.

Judging by your comments and Jambas - some clarification of UBI would be helpful.

The key issue is whether UBI is a replacement for benefits (poss a v good idea) or a top up (poss a v bad idea). I fear that in Labour's eyes, it is v much the latter.

Just as the tories did with potraying the deficit as a result of labour overspending, brexit is labour's opportunity to do the same. As the brexit cluster**** develops and things start unravelling (they already are and we haven't even said we're leaving yet), all labour have to do is say 'this is their mess, and they're incapable of cleaning it up', and everything bad that happens over the next 4 years can be explained with this one simple message.

Q possibly which is why we should all have a common interest in minimising the [s]role[/s] harm that these folk have on the economy.

Corbyn's support for Brexit 😉 will soon be forgotten and the blame for the forthcoming cock-up will sit right in Therea's lap. History has a habit of repeating itself. While this offers a glimmer of hope for the Croydonista's and the Militants, it is a scary prospect for the rest of us.

"You'd only get greater public happiness if people could give up work"

"No.. it's more subtle than that. With UBI, the balance of power shifts from employers to employees ... You can simply leave then look for another."

No? From your comment you mean 'yes'.

UBI is free money to encourage those who don't vote to register and vote Labour. UBI isn't really enough to live on so welfare top up would be required.

Re wages at sh.t jobs we have the minimum wage to address that

You think Sports Direct would've happened if the staff could've just walked out?

AFAIK the majority of Sports Direct warehouse staff are not UK citizens, far from walking out they have travelled a long way to work there.

Unintended consequences ? Jobs like waiters go unpaid, tips only ? It could be zero hour contracts on steriods ?

UBI is free money to encourage those who don't vote to register and vote Labour. UBI isn't really enough to live on so welfare top up would be required.

How do you reach that conclusion when you don't know its structure or its level? At this stage, its the concept that's important. It certainly is not 'free money" nor is it a LW idea - its not far away from many RW Libertarian concepts even those articulated by Milton&Co

AFAIK the majority of Sports Direct warehouse staff are not UK citizens, far from walking out they have travelled a long way to work there.

😯

No? From your comment you mean 'yes'.

I meant - it doesn't necessarily allow people to give up work permanently. Just gives them a safety net that can help at a push.

More part-time work would mean more people doing more of what they love and less of what they hate. Which could have a profound effect on society imo.

Jobs like waiters go unpaid, tips only ?

Why wouldn't minimum wage apply? It would have to, otherwise employers would simply cut wages. It would also need some kind of rent control too.

It would need a huge amount of careful thinking and trialling. It's a big idea, and we need big ideas IMO like we haven't seen since the post-war period.

it wouldnt be necessary

oops:

[IMG] [/IMG]

You are boring.

Ouch, The Economist tomorrow

All pyramid schemes collapse eventually. It is not clear when that will happen to Corbynism. Most commentators and Labour moderates expect him to lose the next general election, probably badly. But there is no guarantee that this will end the cycle; that it will not just be seen as proof the movement is not yet big enough to take on interests—media, business, defence—that have supposedly conspired against Mr Corbyn. This vicious circle helps explain why Labour’s reality-based politicians, including Mr Watson and Mr Khan, seem stuck in a cul-de-sac. None wants to split Labour: the party is too tribal for that and most doubt a new moderate party could survive under Britain’s majoritarian electoral system. Yet recruiting enough centre-left types to take on Mr Corbyn’s uncannily pyramidical movement looks like a long shot. There are no good options.

Queensbury rules?

you mean the article calling him a dodgy dealer and mocking up a picture of him as a sort of arthur daley character is a crude hatchet job- that it mocks the perception of media bias is a beautiful piece of RW irony.

WOW who could have foreseen that and that it was not a piece of impartial journalism the confirmation bias on this thread is strong

FFS look at this for an opening

Jeremy Corbyn, dodgy dealer

Light on substance and heavy on salesmanship, Corbynism is a political pyramid scheme[img] [/img]

All pyramid schemes collapse eventually. It is not clear when that will happen to Corbynism. Most commentators and Labour moderates expect him to lose the next general election, probably badly. But there is no guarantee that this will end the cycle; that it will not just be seen as proof the movement is not yet big enough to take on interests—media, business, defence—that have supposedly conspired against Mr Corbyn. This vicious circle helps explain why Labour’s reality-based politicians, including Mr Watson and Mr Khan, seem stuck in a cul-de-sac. None wants to split Labour: the party is too tribal for that and most doubt a new moderate party could survive under Britain’s majoritarian electoral system. Yet recruiting enough centre-left types to take on Mr Corbyn’s uncannily pyramidical movement looks like a long shot. There are no good options.

All true, but not really an original insight. Militant have won. Labour has left the building and losing in 2020 is not going to bring it to its senses. There was never any doubt of any of this - that's why the 'RBP's* have fought so hard, and not always fought fair. It really was an existential fight.

In other news I'm sure everyone had a chuckle at this a couple of days ago. Easy to see how it happened but even so:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/26/corbyn-calls-for-return-of-mental-health-post-he-left-unfilled

* Love that phrase.

RBP?

reality-based politicians

rbp
what do we want?
errr, nuffin really
when do we want it?
errrr... does after lunch sound ok?

*shiftily sidles off to fill out another expense claim*

JC should start the purge or be purged.

If JC misses his chance now then he will regret forever.

Purge them! Purge!

Actually if labour is to survive then maybe a purge would be the kick needed to settle things one way once and for all, otherwise it will continue as a zombie party.

Dragon - dont mention "zombies" for heaven's sake!!!

JC needs to act fast.

Purge ? How ? If you deselect MPs they still sit until 2020. Shadow Cabinet already had 60 vacant posts, he can't purge there as there's virtually nothing left, Also if he purged all his doubters the SNP really would become the second largest party and official opposition. Even Corbyn isn't that daft.

FWIW IMO the GE2017 call is a bluff from leadsrship (inc Watson) to try and force in-fighting to stop.

I see Paul Mason is on message, Q: where is the £500bn going to come from ? A: We will borrow it or print it 😯

Mason also doesn't seem to understand how borrowing works, in his view the Investment bank would be £100bn govt borrowing and £150bn-£250bn "private sector" loans. Firstly its the private sector which lends the Govt money and secondly borrowing by a govt owned investment bank is .... still govt borrowing (unless Corbyn follows the Greek model where smoke and mirrors rule, until they don"t)

jambalaya - Member
Dazh there won't be a GE before 2020 for the exact reason that the Tories won't allow one as it would deteriortae into a "Brexit is going to be a disaster" shouting match. Execute A50 in 2017, all done by 2019 and then in 2020 you have real facts to evaluate.

I see Paul Mason is on message, Q: where is the £500bn going to come from ? A: We will borrow it or print it

I see Paul Mason is on message, Q: where is the £500bn going to come from ? A: We will borrow it or print it

Remind me again how much was borrowed to fund the bank bailouts, and how much was printed in QE? The trouble with all this 'economic responsibility' stuff is that it only applies when the money is needed to fund infrastructure and services that are required by the general population, yet when it's needed to bailout the the rich, or fight wars, it's conveniently forgotten.

"Purge ? How ? If you deselect MPs they still sit until 2020."

The CLPs will do it. The MPs have to be sacked before Corbyn goes or they will just nominate moderates in the next leadership election.

Purge ? How ? If you deselect MPs they still sit until 2020

This thread is a truly desperate place for RW folk to spout contradictory BS as they mutually self gratify each other about their piss poor arguments....and then chewkw returned

Remind me again how much was borrowed to fund the bank bailouts, and how much was printed in QE? The trouble with all this 'economic responsibility' stuff is that it only applies when the money is needed to fund infrastructure and services that are required by the general population, yet when it's needed to bailout the the rich, or fight wars, it's conveniently forgotten.

While I many understand the sentiments, this is actually a load of tosh, sorry. But if you want to pursue your line of thinking, who last bailed out the rich (sic) and fought a major war? And where is the majority of government expenditure spent today?

How odd, it's sunny down south today.

But jambalaya, UBI is "free money" the key word being universal, meaning you and your VAT registered mate also get it, as well as the non existant flat screen TV wearing kestral superstregnth watching 3 generations of unemployment scrotes.

Look up marginal propensity to consume.
Those with the least tend to spend the most. Meaning the flat screen TV generation are propping up your middle class business with their low class propensity to spend money. That's how UBI stimulates the economy.
Another benefit is some entrepreneurs use the fact that taking a financial risk without the fear of failure seeing themselves starve to death, set up sometimes successful enterprise, which, you guessed it, stimulates the economy

A side benefit, also pointed out by some one above, "they get free money, they won't take my shit paying zero hours contract job"
That's right, they won't. Meaning an end to wage stagnation, that shit job will have to offer attractive remuneration, less profit for the shareholders, granted, but more in the pocket of those with the highest propensity to consume.

The only fly in the ointment is the buy to let Rentier classes seeing this free money as an excuse to raise rents to the maximum figure, just like they do now with LHA, and housing benefit, but this could be easily counteracted with rent caps and tougher landlord controls

While I many understand the sentiments, this is actually a load of tosh, sorry

Yes it's about as accurate as 'labour crashed the economy with their reckless overspending on schools and hospitals'. It's funny because in this brave new world where the likes of Jamba talk utter rubbish but present it as fact, I've come to the conclusion that there's no point trying to argue on a factual basis. Tabloid soundbites are easier and quicker to type too 🙂

UBI isn't really enough to live on so welfare top up would be required.

Jamba go away and read up about it before you say anything else that isn't based on fact. A basic prerequisite of UBI is that it is generous enough for people to live on. Maybe not your fine wine and michelin starred existence, but enough to have a roof over your head, feed your family, and pay the bills. One of the many advantages of it is it does away with the bureaucracy involved in means-testing and distributing welfare, if you have to top it up then that advantage is lost and there's no point.

The only fly in the ointment is the buy to let Rentier classes seeing this free money as an excuse to raise rents to the maximum figure

Which is why UBI would have to be implemented in tandem with a raft of other legislation and policies like rent controls to prevent profiteering.

We agree then Dazh!! But re crashing the economy, Brown has a significant responsibility whisper he in turn tried to shift to "its all the bank's fault"!! But you are correct about facts #posttruthpoilitics

To repeat, there are different forms of UBI but in its purest (and possibly most sensible form) it is not a top up to benefits. That is a bastardisation that I fear Jezza has in the back of his mind.

But don't forget that Beveridge never set out to produce benefits to "live on". The modern welfare state was founded in nothing more that a subsistence (ie v low) level of support which is/was below the levels that we talk about today in terms of living wage etc. Our whole concept of welfar has moved far, far away from its lauded origins.

teamhurtmore - Member

To repeat, there are different forms of UBI but in its purest (and possibly most sensible form) it is not a top up to benefits. [b]That is a bastardisation that I fear Jezza has in the back of his mind[/b].

Why do you think that?

Use eyes and ears....

So he's said it or written it down somewhere?