Jeremy Corbyn

we have free access to our countryside, a properly functioning NHS, and free University education.

wait until scotland has to start funding it though...

Sure does.

I can respect that, you are willing to take some pain and even the risk of being worse off (always impossible to know the future) in return for independence

jambalaya - Member

always impossible to know the future

And yet you claim to know with 100% certainty what the 2020 general election result will be should Corbyn be Labour leader.

Next you'll be telling us that you don't actually have a crystal ball.

I feel so disappointed.

In.My.Opinion. - I can't predict the future, but then again 8)

Anyway carry on. Corbyn wants to be be leader to give Blair (The Labour Party) both barrells on Wednesday

I think he intends to stay on past it. Wishful thinking by Blairites/trolls that all he cares about is Chilcot.

I do worry that Chilcit will be a damp squib. Its not going to accuse Blair of lying is it?

[quote=ernie_lynch ] (not to mention the London Mayoral result)
Actually there have been 4 mayoral elections since Corbyn became leader, Labour have won all 4.

London, Liverpool, Salford, Bristol, true.

2 out of the 4 had not previously been won Labour.

1, Bristol, where the incumbent was independent - I'm not sure how much you can read into that as an endorsement of Corbyn.

I'm not sure - maybe the Bristol voters were voting for Corbyn, maybe they were voting for the candidate on offer and against the incumbent.

The Labour majority in Liverpool was vastly reduced.

Not that I think you can read anything about Corbyn's popularity into mayoral elections - they certainly aren't an endorsement of his electability.

TurnerGuy - Member

wait until scotland has to start funding it though...

Countryside access costs [i]less[/i] than restricting access even before you take into account the benefits to tourism and health.

Free education- the Scottish higher education sector is a massive net bonus to the economy (despite westminster policies designed to hurt UK universities).

But also, the cost of free education for scottish kids is far less than it seems. In the RUK, students have to take on greater student debt, but that debt has to be underwritten. And since so many will never repay that debt, the cost still exists- it's just been kicked 30 years down the road, at which point huge portions of the loan book "asset" will be written off.

The true cost of free education- the difference between the Scottish spend today and the RUK spend over the life of the loan- remains to be seen. There are official estimates, but the most noticable thing about official estimates of student loan repayment rates is that every last one made in the past has turned out to be massively optimistic).

However, the last "optimistic" estimate as of 2014 was that 45% of all student loans will not be repaid. The tipping point is 48.6%- that's the point at which the increase of tuition fees in 2012 ends up [i]costing[/i] us money. It seems incredibly unlikely that this tipping point won't be reached, if it hasn't already, since it had to be raised from 40 to 45% in just the preceeding 6 months before that last [s]obviously made up number[/s] estimate.

aracer - Member

Not that I think you can read anything about Corbyn's popularity into mayoral elections.

Which is exactly what his critics were saying when they thought Labour wouldn't win. Isn't it?

A recurring theme: Before event: "This will be a test for Corbyn and he'll find it hard to survive if it doesn't go well" After event: "Labour did well and it was nothing to do with Corbyn"

Well it depends NW - I don't think you'll find me having ever claimed a mayoral election as being a test for Corbyn (or any other national leader). I wouldn't be saying anything different if Goldsmith had won, and as pointed out Bristol is even more irrelevant.

edit: oh and I'm with you on the university funding thing - what we have here is a bloody stupid system (though personally I still think the "reform" where fees were increased to £9k, but the repayment system changed is an improvement - as those earning less than national average wage pay less than before).

That is because you're a good guy 😆 But lots of people are not good guys about this. Since day one we've had non stop predictions of electoral armageddon for Corbyn and mysteriously every time they get proved false, we just move onto the next one.

There's 2 things in british politics that are mysteriously never revisited after they fail to materialise; predictions of Corbyngeddon, and George Osborne economic targets.

aracer - Member

"2 out of the 4 had not previously been won Labour".

1, Bristol, where the incumbent was independent - I'm not sure how much you can read into that as an endorsement of Corbyn.

I didn't say anything at all about "an endorsement of Corbyn", where on earth did you get that from ?

The Bristol result was an endorsement of Labour, ie, the candidate who won the election stood as a Labour candidate.

I have no idea whether Corbyn being Labour leader had any affect on the Bristol mayoral election result. But it is clear for everyone to see that if it did have affect, and it was a negative affect, it wasn't sufficient for Labour to lose the election.

[u]I have never said that having Corbyn as Leader would have a huge affect on the Labour vote[/u].

It is the Blairites, the Tory press, people like jambalaya, etc. who have made that claim, [b]NOT ME.[/b]

Is that clear.......or do you need any more clarification ? 🙂

I do worry that Chilcit will be a damp squib. Its not going to accuse Blair of lying is it?

I think there will be enough to have a good go at him and they certainly will. I would imagine there is some evidence he told/suggested to Bush we'd go in to Iraq before the Parliamentary decision

teamhurtmore - Member
Epic you are a #posttruthpolticians dream....

I won't be after independence. 🙂

His speech announcing the increase in tractor production figures today was most encouraging

His performance in front of the Home Affairs Committee today (90 mins available online) was as bad as I feared it would be. He is every bit as evasive and downright slippery almost as the worst of them (politicians). Even Shami got told off for passing him notes. Not much in the way of a "new type of poltics" on display today

Chaka was incandescent about the "Blairite" tag being used as an attempt to discredit MPs trying to addres the anti-semitism issue. Also not surprisingly clear he felt Momentum has a significant anti-semtic element which Corbyn was turning a blind eye to.

Didn't realise before today that Seamus (his communucations director) is on video chanting support for recognised terrorist groups.

Ninfan posted this in the EU thread, a film anout the Referendum from a working class town near Doncaster. Specific comments on Corbyn from approx 6:30- 7:30

binners - Member

His speech announcing the increase in tractor production figures today was most encouraging

Posted 1 hour ago

FFS at least make a vague attempt to think of some new jokes. Flashheart was using that one regularly during the Gordon Brown era.

Not only have you ran out of arguments but you've also ran out of jokes. How tragic.

It was boring then, too!

🙂

Can this really be true that Labour MPs are trying to detrrmine who actually owns the logo, the office lease etc ? A tussle over the assets seems like political armageddon ! They've only themselves to blame really as they put Corbyn onto the ballot.

[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-party-assets-owns-jeremy-corbyn-leadership-a7121961.html ]Independent Link[/url]

Supposedly Neil Kinnock had MPs in tears with his impassioned speech about the state of the party

He has that effect on me, too.

They've only themselves to blame really as they put Corbyn onto the ballot.

Well they weren't to know that he would win the ballot by a landslide! Like you they thought Corbyn was a certain loser.

And perhaps they were moved to tears by Kinnock because he spoke to them about how he tragically lost 2 general elections? Losing elections is certainly a subject that he's an expert on.

Luckily it wasn't personally too serious for him as he went on land himself a nice well-paid unelected EU Commissioner's job.

ernie_lynch - Member
'They've only themselves to blame really as they put Corbyn onto the ballot.'
Well they weren't to know that he would win the ballot by a landslide! Like you they thought Corbyn was a certain loser...

That's the problem with being an entrenched priesthood, then a new prophet comes along...

Well this is a little bit embarrassing.

[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/angela-eagle-s-constituency-branch-issues-statement-supporting-jeremy-corbyn-as-labour-leader-a7124241.html ]Angela Eagle’s constituency branch issues statement supporting Jeremy Corbyn as Labour leader[/url]

Mind you so is this.

[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/06/defeated-labour-rebels-admit-its-finished-as-jeremy-corbyn-refus/ ]Defeated Labour rebels admit 'it's finished' as Jeremy Corbyn refuses to resign as leader[/url]

[i][b]One senior MP told The Telegraph: "It's finished. He will win easily in a second contest if he is on the ballot, it's everything we wanted to avoid."[/i][/b]

So the plotters admit that they could only win if Corbyn wasn't on the ballot paper, with him on it they don't stand a chance. How embarrassing.

Perhaps they could start their own political party which doesn't allow party leaders to be elected?

Perhaps they could start their own political party which doesn't allow party leaders to be elected?

I have missed the posts were 'we' have been arguing in favour of a new party with no democracy. It sounds irresistible.

Do you think it should be put to a vote ?

Not no democracy just those who don't want to follow jc, it is obvious that the Labour Party is as split as the Tories at this point. I reckon the plp could make a good go of it and certainly be elected before a Corbyn lead party.

I see.

Honestly Ernie I don't think you do...

Its much more difficult for Labour to be elected after this fiasco. Why couldn't the PLP just get behind him? They say its not policies but because they think he will lose. ffs Their best answer was Angela Eagle! They really shouldn't have bothered.

ctk - Member
Its much more difficult for Labour to be elected after this fiasco....

I'm struggling with the logic for this one.

The PLP has basically been chasing soft Tory votes and not getting elected.

In the meantime huge numbers don't bother voting, possibly because of disillusionment. Blairite politics aren't working for the electorate. Everyone now knows who didn't object to the austerity measures but who said they were fighting it. There's a fat chance of most of them being preselected again and they know it, hence the attempted coup.

Now that Labour seems to be returning to its roots, support and membership is swelling. I suspect the Party will be much stronger at the next election if it clears out the cynical Blairite Tories.

Not that I want to see that happen just yet because a Labour party that has been cleaned up is the biggest threat to Scottish independence IMO.

You are more optimistic than me epicyclo. I see more infighting and a fudged compromise or two. To the benefit of nobody. Corbyn being all strong and sacking dissenters would be great though.

I'd love to be a fly on the wall of these Len McCluskey meetings!

Ernie yes I saw that, he won't resign. It seems Momentum are signing up new members faster than the existing ones are losing faith in Corbyn so any vote is likely to go his way. Parliament will be in recess soon so the lack of a proper front bench they can cover up.

IMHO Labour have created a real monster where people can join and vote with no qualification period (eg 3 or 6 months) and in numbers that the party cannot verify.

Epic IMO Ed Milliband was an attempt to move away from chasing middle ground voters, it didn't work at GE2015 and the responce has been to lurch further left.

The "coup" going to look like the losers in the café on the apprentice deciding who has to resign before they pretend to rally round JC

Epic IMO Ed Milliband was an attempt to move away from chasing middle ground voters, it didn't work at GE2015 and the responce has been to lurch further left.

IMO Ed Milliband was an attempt to move away from chasing middle ground voters, it didn't work at GE2015 and the responce has been to lurch further left.

As I said before it's exactly the same problem the Tories had after Major lost, they lurched right with the likes of IDS. Yes you increase the support of your core base, but while alienating those that you need to win over to get into power.

Why are Labour so rubbish at coups? They need to take a leave from the Tories i.e. strike hard and fast.

"Ninfan posted this in the EU thread, a film anout the Referendum from a working class town near Doncaster"

That video is very depressing, not least because it merely highlights just how ignorant, deluded and mis0-informed so many people are in areas like that.

[i]"They've been given a vote, and they've put two fingers up at the establishment, that's what they've done. They've said we've had enough, and we want change. It can't get any worse for us"[/i]

So they've just voted to put more power into the hands of the very people who actually shafted them in the first place. 🙁
[i]
"They're pulling this narrative out, that it's about racism; it's not, it's about class division"[/i]

Then, the very first person she interviews, says this:

[i]"The main reason I voted out was because (long pause) [b]Immigration[/b] was one factor. That they need to sort that out. It's beyond a joke. It doesn't affect them because of the areas they live in"[/i]

Where do you even start with such ignorance? It's so sad.

My wife has had a major falling out with a very old close friend who lives in the north east, over Brexit. For pretty much the same frustrating ignorance as shown by the people in that video. The irony is that this woman is actually very wealthy, and totally unaffected by Brexit. Her arguments are little more than deluded rants. She's also fallen out with her own daughter who is a nurse.

The key difference here, is socialisation. My wife works in London surrounded by people from all over the world, and her boss is Polish. We socialise with such a diverse range of people. You get to pick up far more diversity of opinion and thought. And in many ways, we're far more negatively affected by Brexit than the friend, or anyone in Stainforth etc. The friend works more or less from home, and never socialises outside of her narrow lower middle class demographic. Of course, her daughter enjoys a much greater diversity of socialisation. It really isn't rocket science to work out why the people in situations and areas of greater cultural and ethnic diversity, have mainly voted Remain.

The key difference here, is socialisation.

Yes, you need to rub their noses in diversity 🙄

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/6418456/Labour-wanted-mass-immigration-to-make-UK-more-multicultural-says-former-adviser.html

So they've just voted to put more power into the hands of the very people who actually shafted them in the first place.

They voted to put power back into the hands of people they get to vote for. Absolutely no one voted for the Mastricht or Lisbon treaties. In fact most people I know who voted Yes in 1975 voted Leave as they felt very strongly they had been lied to about the EEC - which they had of course.

This sums up what I think

[url= https://peterwiddows.wordpress.com/2016/07/03/we-the-0-12/ ]We the 0.12%[/url]

"Yes, you need to rub their noses in diversity"

Said you, using language evolved from Germanic, Nordic, Latin and others. 😆

An article in a right-wing newspaper, quoting a bitter right-wing former employee of right-wing politicians. That really the best you can do?

"Absolutely no one voted for the Mastricht or Lisbon treaties. "

150,000 were polled in 2008 and asked if the UK should have a referendum on before signing up to the Lisbon Treaty. 88% said yes.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7273668.stm

Arguably if the population had been given a say on signing up we wouldn't now be in the position of having an unplanned exit and people voting "leave" for such a wide range of issues.

We also shouldn't forget that the Dutch voted against much of the same policy objectives when it was encapsulated in the European Constitution - and the French voted against it twice in referendums.

Also just found a YouGov poll from the same period - only 13% of those polled said they would for for signing up to the Lisbon Treaty in a referendum (see page 2).

If these two polls are representatives they seem to tell us that the majority of the public wanted a referendum before signing up to Lisbon, and that an overwhelming majority would not vote to ratify Lisbon if they were given a say.

Which is presumably why Gordon Brown pushed it through parliament and reneged on Tony Blair's two promises to give the public a vote on the provisions originally part of the EU Constitution.

So is the current mess all the fault of NewLabour knowing what's best for us and being too scared to test their convictions with the public?

jambalaya - Member
...Epic IMO Ed Milliband was an attempt to move away from chasing middle ground voters, it didn't work at GE2015 and the responce has been to lurch further left.

I think that was the spin presented.

But how did he actually vote when it came to the austerity measures?

(I ask because I wasn't interested enough to follow him, but I got the impression on social media that he was only talking the talk, so he wasn't convincing the last few Labour voters I know)

What's happening is the spin doctors are losing control of the more intelligent voters because people can check what is said against what has actually happened.

Actions are starting to speak louder than words because the words are so often lies or deceit these days.

And hasn't Corbyn's archive footage done wonders for his public esteem in the last few days? He was right and stood up to his detriment.

Clodhopper your witty highbrow post missed the word 'enriched' but other than that go get'em tiger.

What's happening is the spin doctors are losing control of the more intelligent voters because people can check what is said against what has actually happened.

Actions are starting to speak louder than words because the words are so often lies

Well the last two referendums have completely falsified that argument with people not even vaguely checking the accuracy if the promises or "facts" made. There is a global phenomenon based on post truth politics that was remarkable with yS but then overshadowed by Brexit and Trump. Facts are irrelevant in this context as are actuall actions eg,

SNP able to position themselves as left wing with a string record on health and education - no really
The coalition and Tory government's characterised as austerity parties when we are running among the most expansionary fiscal policies in the developed world.

Intelligent people have either given up or simple shake their heads in disbelief.

@cheddar - fascinating, I didn't remember those polls.

And hasn't Corbyn's archive footage done wonders for his public esteem in the last few days? He was right and stood up to his detriment.

I am confused. Corbyn caved in on his views and campaigned (sort of) for Remain,