Jeremy Corbyn

Blimey - have folk round for dinner/bridge and the harmless posts get deleted 😯

Blimey - have folk round for dinner/bridge and the harmless posts get deleted 😯

You don't think the harmless posts should get deleted when you have people round for dinner/bridge ?

Why is that ?

Cheers Nifan for responding to my post...

Angela Eagle leadership contest getting announced on Monday.

She's taken her time....

But why chose another unsuitable candidate - all very odd?

It is odd, no idea why she thinks she's electable more than corbyn, considering only reason the public know of her is because of corbyn.

tbh I just hope this is the first act of the splitting of the party. I really can't see how any of this is reconcilable?

PPE at Oxford - more of the new politics 😉

But a good chess player and an economist - so look on the bright side!!

Ffs why do some people still think it's about winning elections? It's about stopping Corbyn. The rebel Labour MPs have done far more damage to the Labour Party than anyone else. They really don't care that much.

And they want to stop Corbyn because they'll be deselected at the next election.

Ffs why do some people still think it's about winning elections? It's about stopping Corbyn.

Why are the two mutually exclusive?

This PLP drive seems to be all about stopping/getting rid of Corbyn for the simple reason that they perceive that he will prevent them from winning the net election.

And they want to stop Corbyn because they'll be deselected at the next election.

There's a multitude of reasons why they want to stop him all based on some fundamental differences between someone like Angela Eagle and Corbyn. For example Eagle voted in favour of the Iraq War, of course she wasn't the only one, but having seen the appalling disaster and human suffering which resulted from the worse foreign policy blunder in modern UK history her reaction was as follows :

[i]On 22 Oct 2003: Angela Eagle voted against a comprehensive independent judicial inquiry into the Iraq war.

On 22 Oct 2003: Angela Eagle voted against a further inquiry into the war in Iraq.

On 31 Oct 2006: Angela Eagle voted against an inquiry into the Iraq war by a select committee of Privy Counsellors.

On 31 Oct 2006: Angela Eagle voted against a further inquiry into the war in Iraq.

On 11 Jun 2007: Angela Eagle voted against the principle that there should be an inquiry into the Iraq War by an independent committee of Privy Counsellors. [/i]

Gordon Brown who also voted in favour of the Iraq War set in up the Chilcot Iraq Inquiry under immense public pressure :

[url= http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7945346.stm ]Majority 'want Iraq war inquiry'[/url]

Angela Eagle would have much rather that the disastrous consequences of the Iraq War be brushed under the carpet and quietly forgotten. Which not only puts her at odds with the majority of Labour Party members but also puts her at odds with the majority of voters.

In contrast Corbyn takes a completely opposite view which puts him much closer to the majority of voters.

And not only did he oppose going to war but even before the vote was taken in Parliament he publicly claimed :

[b][i]“It will set off a spiral of conflict, of hate, of misery, of desperation that will fuel the wars, the conflict, the terrorism, the depression and the misery of future generations.”[/i][/b]

That was 13 years ago. Today Corbyn has been vindicated and Eagle stands condemned.

Eagle swoops:

[img] [/img]

That was 13 years ago. Today Corbyn has been vindicated and Eagle stands condemned.

And with whats going on in this country at the moment, the Iraq war is going to be at the very issue that people are going to be looking to when they're voting in the next election.

Ernie - its these kind of leftie obsessions, along with Trident, that make Corbyn unelectable. These just aren't the things that normal voters are bothered about at election time. To use Clintons old adage 'its the economy' stupid'. What are Corbyn's economic policies? I haven't a ****ing clue? Have you? But I know he'll bang on about Trident and Iraq ad bloody nauseum

Its 6th form common room politics, which rarely survives exposure to the real world

along with Trident

Amongst all the other news today - [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36754911 ]Trident gateway vote has been announced for the 18th[/url]

Which way should Labour MP's vote - party policy or leadership?

I think the Tories have just placed another elephant trap, what do you think Labour are going to do, jump straight into it?

Thats exactly what I thought as well when I heard that. Dave's not daft. He's sat back and thought 'what can I do that will absolutely ensure that labour self destructs?' And the answer was....

Trident!

Its one of Corbyn and his teams lines in the sand. One of their 80's style sacred cows. They'll forget about Europe, the economy, the NHS, the Tory party, everything!.... and just bang on and on and on and on about it, with all the passion they couldn't be arsed mustering up for the EU referendum. Or anything else important for that matter

Like I said.... 6th form common room politics. Its tragic that thats now all the labour party 'leadership' can be bothered about. Back to the 80's we go Comrade. In every unelectable way imaginable

@thm - my other half did PPE at Oxford and she's nothing like the new politics you suggest and articles like The Spectator does too...it all depends on your ideology and values as to how you use the education...the education itself does not maketh the man/woman...

Ernie - its these kind of leftie obsessions, along with Trident, that make Corbyn unelectable.

Its 6th form common room politics, which rarely survives exposure to the real world

Corbyn has plenty say on matters such as welfare cuts (Angela Eagle believes she was elected to abstain from voting against the Tories on such matters) housing, the living wage, gender equality, the NHS, privatisation, people’s quantitative easing, tax avoidance, education, immigration, and the arts.

The majority of Labour Party members didn't choose him as their leader because he has nothing to say. Obviously.

As far as opposition to Trident making Corbyn "unelectable" is concerned the SNP in Scotland have proved how you can have a strong anti-Trident commitment and wipe out all the opposition in elections You just have to make the case against Trident - something which before Corbyn the Labour Party hasn't been prepared to do.

Hadn't you noticed how opposition to Trident hasn't made the SNP "unelectable" binners? I have to say for someone who claims to read the Guardian I'm quite frankly stunned by how clueless you appear to be.

As far as opposition to Trident making Corbyn "unelectable" is concerned

You just have to make the case against Trident - something which before Corbyn the Labour Party hasn't been prepared to do.

But Labour Party policy is to keep it...

Yes and? binners claims that opposition to Trident makes Corbyn "unelectable".

Edit in response to your edit ninfan : Yes you have to make the case against Trident, just like the SNP has done. Well done for emphasising my point.

Anyways, I've got better things to do than argue with binners and ninfan over Corbyn As I have already pointed out binners will rant about whoever is leader of the Labour Party, and ninfan deeply admires the Tory-right.

Carry on.

Have you noticed how scotland and the rest of the Uk seem to vote differently? As the SNP dont control the nuclear policy one can ignore their views on it when considering voting for them. they coudl wish to replace the army with social workers who do homeopathy...it will have no affect on UK policy.

The issue is can they win votes in Engerland as that is how labour will win an election

Have you any proof a disarmament view is popular?

Dont get me wrong i am one but i dont think its anything like a majority view here and i think its pretty difficult to argue it is anything other than a vote loser. That said I am enjoying seeing you try.

Its also worth noticing what the labour conference said on the matter. Its a bit rich of corbyn to say to MPs respect the membership and then he chooses to ignore them himself.

As Binners point out, to the vast majority it seems to be a fringe issue

http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-britain-scrap-trident/21868

and ninfan deeply admires the Tory-right.

Seems to me that evidence shows that I am exactly the type of potential swing voter (though admittedly in a fairly safe seat with. 24k majority) that labour needs to win the next election. Particularly when I think both the current Tory leadership choices are bloody awful.

@thm - my other half did PPE at Oxford and she's nothing like the new politics you suggest

I am not sure I have suggested anything. I merely note the irony of the world of new politics being led potentially by someone whose frames of reference are very similar to those of the the past

it all depends on your ideology and values as to how you use the education...the education itself does not maketh the man/woman...

Discuss....

I am exactly the type of potential swing voter

ninfan - Member

"and ninfan deeply admires the Tory-right".

Seems to me that evidence shows that I am exactly the type of potential swing voter (though admittedly in a fairly safe seat with. 24k majority) that labour needs to win the next election.

The last thing I want is for the Labour Party to appeal to people like you. If you don't mind me saying.

Not only would appealing to the Tory-right put me off supporting Labour but it would put off whole swathes of traditional Labour voters. Many would just give up voting all together. After all, what would be the point? Just vote Tory if you want a right-wing Tory government - that's what I would do.

The last thing I want is for the Labour Party to appeal to people like you. If you don't mind me saying.

Not only would appealing to the Tory-right put me off supporting Labour but it would put off whole swathes of traditional Labour voters. Many would just give up voting all together. After all, what would be the point? Just vote Tory if you want a right-wing Tory government - that's what I would do.

Is it a nice video ninfan? Does it explain why someone who deeply admires the Tory-right should vote Labour rather than Tory?

If you'll excuse me I'll save myself the bother of watching it and stick with my rather controversial opinion that you should just vote Tory if you want a right-wing Tory government.

Well, I can only say that I hope you enjoy your years in the wilderness as much as you did last time 😆

I'm not sure why you think Labour governments behaving like Tory governments is preferable to Tory governments behaving like Tory governments.

Nor am I sure why you think Corbyn as leader consigns Labour to the "wilderness" when all election results since he became leader provide no evidence of this - maybe you think the obviously very destructive behaviour of the PLP will bring this about?

But thanks for your kind words anyway. There's nothing more touching than an extreme right-wing Tory/UKIPer like yourself showing concern for the well-being of the Labour Party.

binners - Member
...Trident!

Its one of Corbyn and his teams lines in the sand. One of their 80's style sacred cows. They'll forget about Europe, the economy, the NHS, the Tory party, everything!.... and just bang on and on and on and on about it, with all the passion they couldn't be arsed mustering up for the EU referendum...

Yeah, it's not as if a hideous death for the majority of the population is that important...

We can't independently use it. So it's use will be in a nuclear holocaust, and everyone will die horribly.

We don't want a govt that would independently use it, because then we'd die horribly.

Having it makes us a nuclear target, so we could die horribly anyway.

And as we've seen there's some rightwing Fwits in our govt who like to "punch above our weight".

So yeah, not really that important.

For the sake of your children and family do some reading on what happens in a nuclear explosion, and these things are far more powerful than used in Japan. There's better options than having our families exterminated to fulfil the rightwing agenda of some psychopath.

Trident trumps economics.

So if JC wins the leadership contest because of the Momentum stacked membership how then do the PLP react? They are still going to have no confidence in him - do they resign on mass (which is what they should do)and let UKIP in with lots of by-elections or just ignore the party whip and leave us with not effective opposition or do they go to the Lib Dems?? Is it hypocritical of JC to be calling for unity when he voted against his party on hundreds of occasions???Confused of Swansea.

"Yeah, it's not as if a hideous death for the majority of the population is that important...
We can't independently use it.
We don't want a govt that would independently use it, because then we'd all be dead.
Having it makes us a nuclear target, so we could all be horribly dead anyway.
And as we've seen there's some rightwing Fwits in our govt who like to "punch above our weight".
So yeah, not really that important.
For the sake of your children and family do some reading on what happens in a nuclear explosion, and these things are far more powerful than used in Japan."

Broadly agree. It's not independent, and its not a deterrent. Moreover by being in NATO we get to freeload off everyone else's deterrent.

However, Labour party policy is to keep Trident.

Corbyn (rightly IMV) thinks policy should be decided by conference. Corbyn (rightly IMV) thinks Trident should be scrapped.

So which honourable principle is he going to betray? Whatever happens (free vote?) is going to be a total farce.

The PLP is there to represent the interests of the members and the people who elected them
They stood on a labour platform and this is what the party wants. Should Tory MPs who dont get their way do a similar strop?

If they want to be part of a democratic parry then they need to

1) do as the members say as they "own " the party not them
2) form a new party and consign us all to tory rule.

Is it hypocritical of JC to be calling for unity when he voted against his party on hundreds of occasions???

TBH i have no idea how this ends as there is a genuine disconnect between what members want and what Mps want If the MP's cannot respect the party then they should resign. Open revolt serves only to harm the party at a time when the country needs leadership and open.

Unless one side blink this is going to be a mess for at least this entire term if not longer.

Personally I think he needs to be given more time and I think the way to attract voters is to offer an actual alternative to the Tories rather than just being less tory than the tories.

It may well not work but I care little for whether we have a blue tory or a red tory.

So which honourable principle is he going to betray? Whatever happens (free vote?) is going to be a total farce.

I think it would be better if we had a list where Mps were actually free to decide free of party influence/pressure/interference.
It also probably more accurately reflects their real views and makes them far more accountable to their local electorate as you really do get what you vote for rather than a party stooge.

So if JC wins the leadership contest because of the Momentum stacked membership how then do the PLP react?

😆

Yes Corbyn got more votes than all the other candidates put together because Momentum, which didn't even exist at the time, rigged the election.

Something which no one appears to have noticed apart from you.

EDIT : Apologies to ninfan - I falsely attributed that comment to you.

Umm, I didn't say JC won last time because of Momentum but this time. Isn't this a 'hostile takeover' of the Labour party by the back door - shouldn't Momentum stand on their own platform/as their own party.

"Personally I think the parties should whip a lot less as many issues"

I am mighty hacked of with adversarial politics.

I'd be interested to know if any other democracies found a way to make a non-adversarial democracy work and how they did it.

Getting back to the point concerning Angela Eagle's announcement that she will launch a bid to become leader on Monday, I suspect that she has received new legal advice that the PLP will be able to exclude Corbyn from the ballot paper, otherwise the whole exercise could prove rather humiliating for her. It would also explain Tom Watson's sudden change in stance.

Bearing in mind the known feelings of Labour Party members that would indeed represent a "rigged election".

Of course if it turns out that she is the only nomination then they won't even have to bother with having an election at all, as was the case when Gordon Brown became leader.

"Umm, I didn't say JC won last time because of Momentum but this time. Isn't this a 'hostile takeover' of the Labour party by the back door - shouldn't Momentum stand on their own platform/as their own party."

Maybe you could have a system where MPs could nominate candidates. Say each leader candidate had to get say 30 or 40 nominations.

That would completely protect the party from bat-sh1t mental candidates who happened to be popular with the members...

Ahhh, hang on...

Umm, I didn't say JC won last time because of Momentum but this time.

It's clear what you said :

[i]"So if JC wins the leadership contest because of the Momentum stacked membership how then do the PLP react? "[/i]

The obvious inference is that the PLP are behaving the way they are because of a rigged election. If you were referring to the PLP's future behaviour you should have said so.

Isn't this a 'hostile takeover' of the Labour party by the back door

60% of the the vote? No.

Corbyn easily won the leadership vote among all the sections - individual party members, affiliated party members, and party supporters.

It was a fair election which no one disputes. Except for the PLP because they don't like the result. Or at least approximately three quarters of them don't.

Isn't this a 'hostile takeover' of the Labour party by the back door - shouldn't Momentum stand on their own platform/as their own party

Looks like they may even be doing a coronation rather than an election

It is clear what I said - I am assuming there will be a leadership contest - so 'if JC wins the leadership contest (coming up)....

I would have thought that was clear even to you ernie.

The ones attempting the takeover are the PLP

If you look at the historical position, the policy for many dacades was that the PLP exclusively selected the leader.

But of course, back then the Labour party still thought it was important to try and win elections...

Gordon Brown tried to win an election, Ed Milliband tried to win an election they couldn't because the Tories just said "Labour they're like us plus they ****ed up the economy, privatise NHS? yep Labour, academies? yep Labour etc etc"

Labour need to get away from New Labour and offer a genuine alternative to the Tories and to their previous selves.