Jeremy Corbyn

fairness? Is it "fair" that ingenuity, talent, skill and business acumen should go unrewarded?

Is it fair that folk who devote their time and energies into caring for the sick and elderly, people who spend their time attempting to raise the next generation to have a greater sense of morality, people who devote their time to ensuring that we stay safe, people that find ways to encourage society to be less destructive, people that do the dirty, boring jobs, people that sell us our food, people who enrich the fabric of society rather than lining their own pockets should have less than the people who decided to devote their lives collecting as many easter eggs for themselves as they possibly can??

well done to the folk who create wealth, but that job is not in any way more worthy than any other job.. listen to yourselves 😆

And don't try to turn this into Corbyn vs Branson, or 'I won't listen to someone who has more than me' that sort of childish argument only demeans your whole argument

politics of envy my hairy arse

Some good stuff here this morning 🙂

Two middle class prep school boys with poor exam results, one became a self made billionaire, the other an old man steptoe tribute act.

Its all aboit equality of opportunity. When we raise our kids we try and bring them up "correctoy" and this includes teaching life lessons about value of education and work. Life is a lottery as if you are born into a family that valies those things less you are starting life in the second or third row. If you take a decsion to focus on quality of life, having great trails on your doorstep and being home by 6 to see the kids you need to accept that someone who throws themselves into work (inc focusing on career progression) and lives somewhere like London is probably 30-40 years later going to be in a very different position financially. Throw into the mix the continued irbanisation, move to services from manufacturing and a growing ageing population and bingo you create significant wealth inequality and regional variations.

Of course JC is not rich, when you are talking about income inequality and wealth redistribution its always someone else who is rich, never you. It's like the 1%, the 99ers never consider that on a global basis quite a lot of them are the 1%.

Ernie you know RB rents out Necker when he is not there, sort of the ultimate AirB&B. Also why on earth would you live in a country with a 47% top tax rate (or in his case closer to 60+% as he owns the business so pays the employers taxes too) when you don't have to and the alternative is the Carribean ? He runs an airline, he can live anywhere.

@yunki - they have a choice. Caring for people is always going to pay less than a commercially orientated job like say IT support and development, not least as the downward pressire of wages of carers is significant as there are many millions who are capable of that work. I has no issue with carers making £50k a year or nurses a £100k. Just show me how you make the numbers work.

Worthy and pay are not related, one is a subjective judgement the other is commercial.

Yes, it's entirely fair

Because [b]they too[/b] could have decided to stick an advert in a student magazine selling records, but they chose to do something else instead.

equality of opportunity is fair enough to an extent, but a passion for collecting money for fun is not something that we should ever applaud or encourage...

hero worshipping people that chose to make themselves extremely wealthy is messed up..
because those people chose to take all of the money for themselves leaving less for everyone else.. there's only a finite amount of the stuff, so if most of it is stashed away it stands to reason that we all have to make do with less as direct result of that

Ernie you know RB rents out Necker when he is not there, sort of the ultimate AirB&B. Also why on earth would you live in a country with a 47% top tax rate (or in his case closer to 60+% as he owns the business so pays the employers taxes too) when you don't have to and the alternative is the Carribean ? He runs an airline, he can live anywhere.

Shush Jamba, the Laffer curve is a neoliberal myth remember.

equality of opportunity is fair enough to an extent, but a passion for collecting money for fun is not something that we should ever applaud or encourage

What are we allowed to collect then? Bikes? Islands? Manhole covers?

The thing is there's no big thinking around politics or what the state is for. You could justify taxing the likes of Branson on the basis that their undoubted talent is unearned - see Rawls on 'brute luck' but how you get that over who knows but in practical terms they can still just hoof it off and take their business with them.

Bit of a quote about Rawls:

John Rawls' work explains why the concept of luck has had a central place in discussions of justice over the last 30 years. In an immensely influential section of his A Theory of Justice he introduced the metaphors of the social and natural lotteries (for a brief overview over Rawls' appeal to luck and the legacy of this appeal, see Knight and Stemplowska 2011, 2-9). The underlying idea is that every person's starting point in society is the outcome of a social lottery (the political, social, and economic circumstances into which each person is born) and a natural lottery (the biological potentials each person is born with). Rawls says that the outcome of each of person's social and natural lottery is, like the outcomes of ordinary lotteries, a matter of good or bad “fortune” or “luck” (Rawls 1971, 74, 75). Hence, since one cannot possibly merit, or deserve, an outcome of this kind, people's starting positions cannot be justified by appeal to merit or desert (Rawls 1971, 7, 104). It can be seen, then, that Rawls' social and natural lotteries provide negative support of his theory of justice. They undermine alternative theories in which distributions of social and economic benefits deviating from that prescribed by the difference principle are tolerated (Nozick 1974, 216; Arneson 2001, 76). They also underpin Rawls' claim that a system of natural liberty—one in which formal equality of opportunity obtains in that “all have at least the same legal rights to all advantaged social positions” (Rawls 1971, 72) and applicants are assessed on their merits alone—is unjust because “it permits distributive shares to be improperly influenced by” the outcomes of the social and natural lottery.

^^^ Yunki I have worked with and for some people who have made very large amounts of money. I don't think any of them collect money for fun. They tend to be motivated by success, ie being the best, seeing a new peoduct idea come to fruition. The competitive spirit of being on the "winning side" of any deal. That is generally financially rewarded and that of course allows them to buy a lifestyle. However its not a love of money which drives them.

bollocks... power, wealth, success... why should those things be inextricably linked?

What are we allowed to collect then?

how about respect? love? integrity?

I don't know when wealth crosses the line from comfort to obscenity, but surely the answer is to try to work the problem out, instead of exploiting the situation for personal gain?
You people that defend it annoy the hell out of me because you've given up on humanity

I do get the impression Branson spends a lot of his cash.

MPs pensions- I believe D.C can now claim his ex PM pension on top of his MP wages. £80k extra a year?

ctk - yes I think he can but I think he has already said he will not.

Yunki if you don't mind me saying that's very polarised thinking. I think Branson for example has as much respect, love and integrity as anyone. To imply (which I think you ars doing) that those with welath have less of the positive qualities you mentioned or that they are more motivated by money than softer issues is quite wrong

but why should the unholy alliance of power, wealth and 'success' be so solidly bound together?
it's a fundamental flaw and the [i]only[/i] thing that perpetuates it is greed

how about respect? love? integrity?

history appears to tell us that Branson has collected more of that along the way that Corbyn too!

but why should the unholy alliance of power, wealth and 'success' be so solidly bound together?
it's a fundamental flaw and the only thing that perpetuates it is greed

Money and power allows you to do great things - Who do you think has done more for South Africa? Some beardy **** wearing a placard, or some beardy **** setting up a business entrepreneur school, and fighting AIDS through healthcare projects

http://bransoncentre.co.za/south-africa/

waaah... branson vs corbyn?

what are you even talking about?
we might as well argue shoes vs spiders!

well done branson, thanks mate have an island... your facile argument would carry more weight if we were discussing one of world's less benevolent billionaires

stop allowing people to collect money for fun, stop rewarding their achievments with obscene amounts of money

Yeah, Corbyn just wants an Ireland

you're a berk

Nipper99 - Member

or is it just based on envy - the Branson bashers seem to fall in to the latter camp.

The Branson bashers ? That'll be yunki, he's terribly envious.

I would never bash Branson - despite a multitude of failed businesses he has never been put off making millions for his own person gain, with of course the indispensable help of hugely compliant governments. You have to truly admire that.

Though I did think it was important to reiterate just5minutes's 'hilarious' point concerning how fabulously wealthy Jeremy Corbyn is.

It was such a good point, and it was so well made 🙂

When you think about it it's hard to figure out Corbyn's appeal.

Christ this is nonsense.

your facile argument would carry more weight if we were discussing one of world's less benevolent billionaires

Ah, so, [b]some[/b] billionaires are OK now then?

How about that greedy ****er Bill Gates, is he allowed to be a self made billionaire as well?

[b]stop[/b] allowing people to collect money for fun, [b]stop[/b] rewarding their achievments with obscene amounts of money

This is one of the major elecforal / policies issues for the (harder) left. It's about [b]STOPPING[/b] things, its not about empowerment or opportunity or growth. It's a vindictive policy stance but taking things away from others. We live in an interconnecred world you can't possibly stop people making moneynas we only control legislation in our country and if you tried such a thing with 100% certainty innovators would just base themselves elsewhere and sell into thd UK as an export market.

[img] [/img]

berk

Traitors scof and cowards leer

If Labour want to win they have to embrace success. The rank and fike are very far away from that at the moment

Is that supposed to be a Jewish reference Yunki?

have to embrace success.

the debbie mcghee
fan club
is out in
force
today

non ninfan je suis desolee, it's not

teamhurtmore - Member

Ernie, I thought you were against people posting stuff that might harm Labour's chances and you then post that photo

You thought that photo of him coming out house was bad have a look at this one :

[img] [/img]

Ha ha, what sort of half-wit goes around on a bike ?

And this man wants to be PM !

Get a proper awesome car you wally.

jambalaya - Member

....and cowards leer

What's cowardly about leering ?

[img] [/img]

It's a bit hard to be lectured about fairness and equality from someone with a £1,500,000+ pension pot funded by the taxpayer.

Logically how is his argument harmed by him being an MP?

Its really not his fault MPs are so well paid. It has no impact on his argument or whether fairness is a good idea- hence why yet again the messenger was hot and not the message 🙄 - and he did not make the rules.[quote=Lifer ]Christ this is nonsense.

Aye its become an increasingly tiresome right wing circle jerk - it like having a twitter feed for RW BS/tenuous trolling

well done to the folk who create wealth, but that job is not in any way more worthy than any other job

Except of course, it's that "job" which creates all the others.

@ernie

I suppose that's a tad more convincing than stills from "Life Of Brian", is it?

Aye its become an increasingly tiresome right wing circle jerk

Eh? I'm a former Labour voter - why is my opinion worth less than yours?

Well nin, you're a class traitor, clearly. Off to the Gulag with you.

Was that really meant to persuade me it was a good quality "debate" 😯

Whilst i was mighty tempted to address your straw man it dawned on me that no case at all could be made for you being anything other than a left of centre floating voter.
Thanks god you are not one of the RW frothers who will post lies for a reaction or like whoppit post pathetic "gulag" gags - i say gags that is not to suggest they are funny

Neither Post has made me reconsider my evaluation of the paucity of debate on here

Its basically RW folk typing lies and doing petty insults - worse they are not even flirting with funny or informative.

String of "left wing" opinions - political discussion.

Multiple "right wing" opinions - "circle jerk".

Oh, I see.

this branson topic has got the
residents in a
spin
unsure whether to
tug
forelock or
foreskin

Oh, I see.

Remember folks - "right wing" 🙂

[iMG] [/IMG]

Note how Corbyn is tacking towards the centre ground, the traitorous bastard

yes obviously the valid conclusion from that graph of him at the far left. certainly that evaluation has made me realise how great the analysis on this tread is.

SO lets get this is he a trot marxist nationaliser who wants to be a friend of the terrorist hate women and become centrist

PS i assume your graph shows you voted for the left wing labour party when they were right wing under Tony and to the right of the lib dems so essentially if they become right wing you will vote for them ...you left wing radical you.

sublime stuff from the times:

[u][b]My Week, by Jeremy Corbyn[/b]*[/u]

[b]Monday[/b]

It’s a quiet day, so I’ve taken all of my supporters in the Parliamentary Labour Party to the cinema to see Swallows and Amazons. Unfortunately, there aren’t enough seats
.“Yes there are,” says the usher, shining his torch.
Not if we all want to sit together, I explain.
“But there are over 40 of you,” says the usher. “And you didn’t book.”
This is precisely the problem with a privatised cinema industry. We’ll have to sit on the floor.
“You can’t,” says the usher.

Seumas, my press guy, is hovering, unhappily. He hates the cinema, on account of it being an instrument of false consciousness, but he says the usher has a point. It’s simply not plausible to expect that my entire parliamentary support could all sit together in a place as small as this.
“Unless you come back in a year!” says Tom Watson, brightly.
“Why is he still here?” demands John McDonnell.
Tom says he just really wanted to see the film.

[b]Tuesday[/b]
Midway through the morning, Seumas comes running in and says there’s a problem with our last YouTube video. The one about the busy Virgin train to Newcastle.
I think I know why. I said “ram-packed” instead of “jam-packed”.
Meaningless. It’s been bothering me all week.
“No,” says Seumas. “It’s because you sat on the floor and said there were no seats. But Virgin has released CCTV showing that there were loads. And that you sat in one of them.”

Immediately, there’s uproar. Some people reckon we should insist that the seats that looked free in fact had incredibly small people in them. One of whom I sat on. Somebody else says our best defence is to insist that they were all reserved, and that merely being the Labour leader isn’t enough to force somebody out of a seat they’ve legitimately secured.
“Unless they’re a Blairite,” says Diane Abbott, who may not have been listening.

[b]Wednesday [/b]
Eventually, I answer the phone. It’s Seumas again, sounding anxious. He says he’s been calling all day.
“Sorry,” I say. “I was making ram.”
“Ram?” he says.
“Jam,” I say, quickly. Weird.

Seumas says the train story is still raging on. Nobody is even defending me any more. Apparently Ken Livingstone was up for it, but then somebody on Twitter pointed out that him discussing trains on air could easily take a dangerous turn. So they’re now just hoping it all blows over.

[b]Thursday [/b]
I’m on a train to Glasgow for tonight’s hustings. With a seat. Shut up.
John McDonnell calls and says Owen Smith has described me as “a lunatic”.
I’m shocked. What sort of person could think that’s acceptable language to use about a political opponent?
“Only a f***ing lunatic,” says John.

Then John says that we’ve another problem. An unexpected consequence of Labour and the unions boycotting security firms is that our party conference has no security firm. Which means the police might not let it go ahead, because there’s always the danger of an attack by Islamist terrorists or a residual rump of the IRA.
“Not if we made a couple of phone calls . . .” I begin
"Shhh,” says John.

[b]Friday [/b]
Heading back to London, with Seumas. We booked. He says it’s obvious now that my leadership is under sustained attack from the plutocratic establishment. Virgin, G4S, that quite posh cinema in Pimlico, etc. So we should respond, forcefully, by boycotting all of them.
“Brilliant,” I say. “Totally. But let’s maybe wait until we get home.”

Then Seumas sighs, and says he’s still not happy. Yes, I’ll probably keep the leadership. Yes, I totally won yesterday’s hustings against Owen Smith. Even so, there are too many unforced errors which just make us look a bit amateurish. That train thing, for example.
“There are so many properly overcrowded trains,” he says. “They’re not hard to find. So if you really wanted to make that video, couldn’t you have just taken one of them?”
“Well yes,” I say. “Only then I wouldn’t have got a seat.”

Junkyard - lazarus
Oh, I see.

Have you ever done a post that was not a straw man pile of shit on this thread?

Oh dear. You sound a bit upset.

Jeremy doesn't like being asked questions that are not on his agenda either, apparently.

Everybody sitting comfortably? Then we'll begin. Mind the doors...

Have you ever done a post that was not a straw man pile of shit on this thread?

You seem to have read this question as please do them ad nauseum.

Could you try to make them funny? I gave up on insightful some while ago.

I gave up on insightful some while ago.

Yes. I noticed. 😆

^^ That surely must qualify for the most puerile retort of the week.

[quote=ernie_lynch said]^^ That surely must qualify for the most puerile retort of the week.

Shut up, smelly pants.

That it should have come to this! 🙁

Well yes,” I say. “Only then I wouldn’t have got a seat.”

🙂

Oh the irony of the those here complaining about the level of the discussion here. Of course when it their trolling, hurling of abuse and name calling it's what ? Cutting edge humour and razor sharp political dialogue ?

I dont think we ever reach the point where there is no actual debate, we are just making thinks up and the debate,such that we have, is about how shitty the debate is and who are the shittiest debaters

You started it.

That it should have come to this!

(From the peanut gallery) - It (politics) always comes to this. One might say that it *is* this. 😥

Politics - A simian game in which each poo-flinging monkey picks a team and then says that the other team smells and is not to be trusted.

Winner is decided by who flings the most and stickiest poo whist taking care not to slip-up in own.

Ha ha, what sort of half-wit goes around on a bike ?

I do. So that's twice your have called me a half-wit, so now I must be a full wit. Thanks Ernie, I am honoured. Can you be a double wit?

Two great photos though - looking forward to the poster versions with the "Vote Me - No Really."

(Haven't seen the news but have there been flash floods up North again?)

I do.

You mean you've got a Chairman Mao bike ?

Does the Times know about this ?

http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/chairman-mao-corbyn-bike-475

I dont think we ever reach the point where there is no actual debate, we are just making thinks up and the debate,such that we have, is about how shitty the debate is and who are the shittiest debaters

This in spades. I don't contribute to political threads simply because I'm rubbish at arguing. Views such as I have won't be changes by internet debate neither could I hope to change others to my point of view. As entertaining as this this thread has been it seems to have run it's day 🙁

You mean you've got a Chairman Mao bike ?

Does the Times know about this ?

http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/chairman-mao-corbyn-bike-475

I'd have had a shed load more respect on the bike thing he had actually come out as an enthusiast or having some knowledge about bikes, but it felt more like he had randomly googled 'red bicycle' and picked the first Raleigh because its well known. particularly since this 'object of desire' cost less than his current bike

the whole thing just seemed so contrived

I'd have had a shed load more respect on the bike thing he had actually come out as an enthusiast or having some knowledge about bikes

The bastard doesn't even know anything about bikes ! He probably takes his bike to a bike mechanic !

He's beneath contempt.

I don't blame you for not having any respect for him ninfan - the sooner he's replaced by someone who actually knows something about bikes the better.

John - I really wasn't thinking straight - McDonell produced the little red book in Parliament. So you can hardly blame The Times for the Chairman Mao reference can you ?

Ernie oddly enough when I post links to ViceNews its derided at right-wing or refernces made tomthe fact Murdoch has a small stake in the business

I doubt he takes his bike to the bike mechanic for a service as that costs money and he is not a wealthy guy it seems :

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/jeremy-corbyn-says-not-wealthy-despite-130k-salary-labour-scotland-out-of-touch-a7212811.html

£137k salary, equivalent of a £1.6 million pension pot, £600k house, fails to declare his pension income on his tax return.

Hopefully his bearded messiah persona will have totally slipped by the time he is up for election to any sort of really important post.

So you can hardly blame The Times for the Chairman Mao reference can you ?

How about I go Boris brought up Hitler therefore May rides in a NAzi vehicle...still seeming rational to you and not my fault its so utterly tenous?

Ernie oddly enough when I post links to ViceNews its derided at right-wing or refernces made tomthe fact Murdoch has a small stake in the business

Why is it odd - it's left-wing and Murdoch doesn't have a small stake in the business ?

I posted a link to a Vice News in case THM didn't know what a Chairman Mao bike was. To be fair I didn't know what a Chairman Mao bike was until it was pointed out that Corbyn has one.

In fact I didn't even know that Chairman Mao had a bike.

Ernie you are missing the point, It does not matter that there is no such thing as Chairman Mao bike as its not the times fault as that John feels did something in parliament so the times is completely exonerated...jamby said so

What do you mean I'm missing the point ? Chairman Mao didn't have a bike ? What's going on ?

the sooner he's replaced by someone who actually knows something about bikes the better.

In fact I didn't even know that Chairman Mao had a bike.

A China-man on a bike, who knew 🙂

Chinaman is not the preferred nomenclature

Almost as odd as being on a bike forum and never really talking about bikes....

A China-man on a bike, who knew 🙂

^^That sounds a bit racist. Do you also assume that all Chinese men (Chinaman is a tad offensive) have pigtails and that all Chinese women walk in small quick steps?

The fact that Chairman Mao was a bit portly suggested that he probably didn't do much in the way of exercise, so it never occurred to me that he might have had a bike.

Mind you I've seen some pretty fat bastards riding on bikes so it's not a particularly reliable rule, I'll give you that.

that all Chinese women walk in small quick steps

I thought that they only travelled in great leaps forward?

I posted a link to a Vice News in case THM didn't know what a Chairman Mao bike was. To be fair I didn't know what a Chairman Mao bike was until it was pointed out that Corbyn has one.

I am touched by your concerns about my education. I am now a clever full-wit. Thank you, you're too kind really.

Did you make it out for a ride in the end?

Did you make it out for a ride in the end?

What Leith Hill? That's bank holiday monday, can you make it? Actually I need to get a new tubeless valve tomorrow if I'm going to make it - not used my full suss for a while and one valve was leaking badly when I pumped up the tyre. I'll make a special effort if you can make it though - I could always use the hardtail 🙂

Sadly as before Ernie, I am on family duty this BH weekend. Folk staying so no riding I'm afraid.

Making a link between the Chinese and bicycles in Mao's era is rather obvious no ? Chinaman is a man from China just like I'm an Englishman, also a type of spin bowling.

Hardtail is fine Ernie, I use it for 90% of my Surrey Hills rides. Ride what you've got.

Chinaman is a man from China just like I'm an Englishman, also a type of spin bowling.

No it's not. Chinaman is like England man. Englishman is like Chinese man. Plus Chinaman quite offensive, as well as a type of spin bowling.

And : [i]"Hardtail is fine Ernie, I use it for 90% of my Surrey Hills rides. Ride what you've got"[/i]

I am fully aware of what a hardtail is like on the Surrey Hills, I find it more fun to go down Barry Knows Best on a full suss. I got one of those which is why I like to use it 🙂

China men vs Chinese men I'll take your word for it. England man certainly isn't offensive just poor English. Anyway I wouldn't worry too much aboit that offending a Chinese person, they are pretty thick skinned and freely refer to us an Ang Mo and worse for the Jaoanese.

BKB is better on a hardtail in my opinion as its very pedally and they took out the rooty descent at the end years ago which was the best bit imo.

Anyway I wouldn't worry too much aboit that offending a Chinese person

Well I'm sure you wouldn't. I can't imagine that it's the sort of thing which you worry about.

Yes I know how the end of BKB was sorted out a couple of years ago, but the problem wasn't that the last bit was rooty, it was that the trail just kind of disappeared and had no definitive line. It has now.

Chinaman is a man from China just like I'm an Englishman,

All together now!

Jeremy Corbyn. What a twunt.

Just saying... 😀

Dare to accuse Kevin of being less than truthful..

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/aug/28/john-mcdonnell-richard-branson-stripped-of-knighthood-traingate?CMP=fb_gu

His basic point seems to be that those British folk who are knighted and then flee to abroad to avoid tax are perhaps not the best examples of our nation and they should be stripped of their title for their actions - more accurately you cannot have it if you do this.
Exactly what of this are you objecting to exactly?
I dont think the campaign group for Phillip Green will be particularly loud or vociferous from any side of the house. Branson, granted, does have much better PR, so is a lot more under the radar.

Seems fairly reasonable that those we "honour" uphold a moral code that most of us think is "fair".

He did not say if you criticise JC then you are stripped.

More of the "new politics" in today's papers..

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/corbyn-hit-by-electoral-fraud-row-g2x0ld52b

Still, let's call for Branson to be stripped of his gong and maybe people will get distracted by that..

Branson unlike Green generates wealth of which tens of thousands brits benefit but lets not split hairs. Yes let's strip the nasty rich man of his knighthood.

Ernie. I worked in one of the world's most diverse organisations for 11 years. In my last team I had two Chinese nationals and reported jointly to a Brit and an Egyptian with whom I had a very strong relationship. The main business I ran had people from India, China, Singapore, South Africa, Columbia and Vietnam plus Brits of course. Everyone got along fabulously well.

McDonnell can call for what he likes. He has no power of influence. What he is doing is reinforcing Labour's anti-business crednetials which has historically been terminal for their electoral chances. Really he should have jist kept his mouth shut as he is keeping the #traingate story on the front pages

@just5 yes indeed, addresses of convenience. That Corbyn picture is a classic 🙂

[img] [/img]