Jeremy Corbyn

I'm Welsh/ in Wales and the people I know think Corbyn is alright and Carwyn Jones is a plonker. I think this Corbyn is toxic in Wales/Scotland is bollocks. I'm pretty sure Corbyn would be more acceptable to the Scottish and Welsh than Milliband or any of the other previous leadership candidates.

Well Momentum sounds like something an Apprentice candidates would come up with as a team name if Suralan had said 'right... Today you're going to take over a political party, and make no mistake.... one of you will be fired!'

So maybe we should run that one up the flagpole and see who salutes it?

Corbyn is seen as pretty toxic in Wales which is why he was asked to keep away from the Assembly elections and why, all being well, Welsh labour will go its own way very shortly.

Then there's the small issue of Sadiq Khan running his London mayoral election campaign with the slogan 'it's ok. You can vote for me. It's safe, because I'm **** all to do with that leftie headcase'

I'm paraphrasing, but that's a pretty accurate summary. He went and got the biggest barge pole known to man to distance himself from Jezza. Which made the beardy messiah taking credit for it in his speech almost as much comedy gold as him demanding loyalty from his backbenchers, or standing up as the leader of the Labour Party to disagree with the labour parties official policy on unilateral nuclear disarmament.

And as Malcolm Tucker famously said of him and John Macdonnell ... "Laurel and Hardy? Nice of you to join us. Did you get the piano up the stairs ok?

ctk i'm Welsh and in Wales and the sooner the Labour Party in Wales cuts the apron strings with English Labour the better imo - look at the progress of the Wales bill.

The fact that we have a Welsh Gov't and a Scottish Parliament was down to having an electable left of centre UK govt. Its interesting that Momentum haven't pitched up in Wales yet - I wonder why that is.

Inbred456 - Member

Ernie would you not agree that Corbyn's Labour isn't really the Blairite labour that people associate with the Labour Party. Nothing wrong with that in itself, but if the Party must split because there are two different factions then at least people will know who and what they are voting for and what the values are. It's then up to each Party to get its message across and garner enough support for a majority. You never know they could form a coalition government and share power! There's a thought.

But this isn't about policy, the plotters have made that clear.

In contrast the SDP slit in the 80s was all about policy - the Gang of Four made that absolutely clear at the time.

I know I keep repeating it but it is about [i]power.[/i] What the plotters fear is being made truly accountable to those they represent.

At the present politics is divorced from the people, and the plotters want to keep the status quo.

And this isn't unique to the UK it's true of much of Europe and the US. By the US I'm not necessarily thinking of Trump, Bernie Sanders a few years ago would have been dismissed as "unelectable" and yet he came pretty close to winning the Democrat nomination, he was certainly Hilary Clinton's greatest challenger.

The "centre ground" consisting of "electable" politicians no longer has the appeal it once had. Many traditional left parties in Europe moved to the centre ground, which is a fancy term for saying that they lurched to the right, today those parties are discredited in the eyes of their electorates.

In Greece the Panhellenic Socialist Movement once a major party of government is now the 7th party with 4.8% of the vote, the previously "unelectable" Syriza form the government.

In Spain the once mighty Socialist Party is now seriously threaten by the grassroots movement Podemos.

Another left party which lurched to right in a bid to capture the "centre ground" the French socialist party has seen it's support collapse, sadly the main beneficiaries of this appear to be the far-right National front.

Here in the UK after 25 years of existence UKIP have in recent times enjoyed their highest level of support ever. While the LibDems, the party which has always claimed to be a centre party, has seen its electoral support collapse.

What does all this prove? Well that centre parties with "electable" politicians no longer have such an appeal, as people become more and more disillusioned with mainstream politics.

It doesn't necessarily mean that people are turning to the left though, I wish it were the case. But the struggle in the Labour as I've already mentioned isn't about policy, the plotter don't criticise Corbyn over policy. Corbyn has tapped into widespread disillusionment with mainstream politics - many of his supporters are not particularly left-wing.

The plotters don't understand what is happening. That is why they were very happy to see him in the first leadership ballot.

As someone commented (with reference to Bernie Sanders) :

[b][i]"It's hard to report on a peasant revolt from inside the castle" [/b][/i]

Here in the UK after 25 years of existence UKIP have in recent times enjoyed their highest level of support ever. While the LibDems, the party which has always claimed to be a centre party, has seen its electoral support collapse.

What does all this prove? Well that centre parties with "electable" politicians no longer have such an appeal, as people become more and more disillusioned with mainstream politics.

Which has most mp's, the centre party who got 7.9% of the vote, or the non centre party that got 12.6% of the vote

binners - Member

Then there's the small issue of Sadiq Khan running his London mayoral election campaign with the slogan 'it's ok. You can vote for me. It's safe, because I'm **** all to do with that leftie headcase'

And there's the small issue of "that's completely bollocks". Sadiq Khan was extremely happy for Corbyn to stand along side him and help him as he campaigned to be London Mayor.

Here is he is with Corbyn during that campaign :

[img] [/img]

Before he was elected Mayor of London the overwhelming majority Londoners knew absolutely nothing about Sadiq Khan apart from the fact that he was the official Labour candidate.

It is true that [u]after[/u] he was elected Mayor and the plot against Corbyn started brewing Sadiq Khan began making critical comments about Corbyn.

However, and this is extremely significant, when it became apparent that the coup might fail Sadiq Khan fell strangely silent. As far as I am aware Sadiq Khan has not made any critical comments concerning Corbyn for quite a while, despite the fact that the battle to remove Corbyn has intensified dramatically.

Sadiq Khan is a career politician who knows when to put his head above the parapet and when to keep it down.

Right now for obvious reasons he's keeping it well down.

ninfan - Member

Which has most mp's?

Ah right, I must be talking bollocks - UKIP hasn't in the last couple of years enjoyed the most electoral support it has ever had, and the LibDem vote hasn't collapsed 😆

You are priceless ninfan !

itsa complete non sequitur as ll he has proved is that our electoral system is not proportional. Whilst this is true it in no way negates the point.

complete non sequitur as ll he has proved is that our electoral system is not proportional. Whilst this is true it in no way negates the point.

Congratulations

You're finally getting it

You cannot win elections from the wings - UKIP have proved this, despite their huge success, they have still only got one MP - you need to win the centre ground in order to get elected.

now you may not like the system... But it's the system that is in place, and the only way to change it is to go out and win an election.

Go figure.

I know it's always a mistake to attempt to have a sensible debate with you ninfan as silly playground taunts/point scoring and diversionary tactics is all that you are capable of, but I will this time respond to your comment.

No one is talking of 'winning elections from the wings'. The Labour Party is not UKIP, today it is the largest political party in Europe.

And whilst we are talking of UKIP the best way to counter the electoral threat it has started posing in recent times is to offer an alternative to all those people who feel so disillusioned with politics today.

As I have pointed out above public disillusionment with mainstream politics does not automatically translate into support for left-wing radical parties. It has in Greece and in Spain (although Podemos does avoid using the left-wing cliches) but not in France.

It just depends what the available conduit for this disillusionment is, eg, in France it's the National Front.

Here in the UK I would like the conduit to be the Labour Party, obviously. But I can guarantee to you that for UKIP the best possible Labour leader would be a Blairite. A Labour leader disconnected and out of touch with ordinary voters. Under Blair and Brown Labour lost 5 million votes - why?

Go figure, as you say.

EDIT : And while you're figuring that out also try to figure out why today the Labour Party is the largest political party in Europe - has Corbyn got anything to do with it?

Congratulations

You're finally getting it

Still unable to actually discuss the point Junky?

@ Ernie

I know it's always a mistake to attempt to have a sensible debate with you ninfan as silly playground taunts/point scoring and diversionary tactics is all that you are capable of, but I will this time respond to your comment.

No one is talking of 'winning elections from the wings'. The Labour Party is not UKIP, today it is the largest political party in Europe.

Winning from the wings is exactly what you are proposing Corbyn can do, I say that UKIP have proved that it's not possible

Here in the UK I would like the conduit to be the Labour Party, obviously. But I can guarantee to you that for UKIP the best possible Labour leader would be a Blairite. A Labour leader disconnected and out of touch with ordinary voters. Under Blair and Brown Labour lost 5 million votes - why?

The vast majority stayed in bed, but it didn't matter, because they were in safe seats anyway.

It doesn't matter how many votes you win or lose, it matters where you win or lose them.

Tripling, even quadrupling your majories in the heartlands and safe seats cannot win you an election, you need to win the marginals in order to get elected. For all the self congratulatory back slapping about new members and biggest party ever, Corbyn/labour polling in the marginals has fallen through the floor. Until the Labour Party can appeal to the marginals, it's dead.

the marginals

Why do you have to be so realistic?
Why invoke those bland soulless entities?
The defeated and the damned with their dismal lives of drudgery, ponderously falling forward in their meaningless trudge towards the end..
Staggering blindly through their miserable unrewarding existences, mewling piteously and grasping at baubles and toys like fat maggotty infants..

**** them

LOL at ninfan. Yeah UKIP haven't won at all have they? Farage retiring a broken defeated man.

Yunki... this is you, isn't it? 😀

LOL at ninfan. Yeah UKIP haven't won at all have they? Farage retiring a broken defeated man.

You think that Corbyns role model is Farage?

Could explain a lot really...

The Labour Party is not UKIP, today it is the largest political party in Europe.

UKIP suceeded in setting an agenda around UK Independence from the EU which has lead to a referendum and Brexit. That is a quite stunning political success from a "startup" party. Labour have little idea who these members are, as per Andrew Marr yesterday far left Trotskiest organisations are cnavassing their members and mailing lists to sign up and vote for Corbyn. To suggest the membership numbers represent success win the 2016 Rose Tinted Spectacles Award.

The move to oust Corbyn isn't opportunistic plotting, its a direct responce to a catelogue of disasters culminating in his conduct during the EU Referendum.

"No one is talking of 'winning elections from the wings'."

I thought that was the whole point of Corbyn? To move Labour to the left to win the votes of current non-voters.

If not that then what?

Lol at ninfan again!

Farage and Lenin, covering all bases!

I want Labour to win the next election, I think if the PLP had got behind him from the start he would have had the best chance of any of the 4 leadership contenders. WTF is going to happen now I do not know.

if the PLP had got behind him

Corbyn has never got behind the Labour PLP, he has never had the same views as them. Why would that have changed now.

There is a lot denial on here. If its not the "right wing media", its PLP plotting. Corbyn's leadership is turning out to be an even bigger shambles than the most negative predictions of STWers

I think if the PLP had got behind him from the start he would have had the best chance of any of the 4 leadership contenders.

If its not the "right wing media", its PLP plotting.

what if it were both?

You thought he'd be gone by now! But Cameron has gone. Still has support from members. Won every electoral test. Held govt to account on numerous issues, held off a massive plot by PLP to overthrow him.

binners - Member

Yunki... this is you, isn't it?

I am genuinely baffled by you binners. You repeatedly post what must presumably be the first thing that comes into your head, or least what you imagine might be the truth, without actually checking facts.

This is an absolutely perfect example :

binners - Member

Then there's the small issue of Sadiq Khan running his London mayoral election campaign with the slogan 'it's ok. You can vote for me. It's safe, because I'm **** all to do with that leftie headcase'

I respond by pointing out that it's complete bollocks, I even provide photographic evidence :

[img] [/img]

And yet you appear to be completely impervious to the basic human emotion of "embarrassment" as you swan back onto the thread attempting to ridicule others. Do you have no shame mate?

I think you've outclassed jambalaya in the 'no shame' category. At least he doesn't try to ridicule others after his embarrassing gaffs. You appear to be enjoying posting gibbering nonsense as much as Chewwy obviously does.

I don't mind of course but as I've always quite liked you I have to say that after your antics on this thread I really feel quite sad.

In contrast I relish seeing the inevitability of ninfan making a prat of himself !

And whilst we are on the subject I'd like to point out that I do genuinely quite like jambalaya - but I don't mind him making a prat of himself 🙂

So, the usual suspects still talking bollocks I see. 😆

As for a name for the new party of traitors; seeing as how they appear to be so opposed to Momentum, how about 'Inertia'? Really would sum up a party full of careerists who just seem content to go along with the status quo, and never actually bother coming up with anything different from the neo-liberal disease. Inertia; a party going nowhere, with no hope of progression. Sounds perfect.

Owen Smith: so, Binners, you'd vote for him over Corbyn? And you'd then expect something different to Blair or Millibland? 😆

Interesting that the wife of that idiot claiming Corbyn was going to 'phone his dad.... works for Owen Smith. Surprise surprise.

neo-liberal

I'd be surprised if a few of the PLP aren't considering crossing the floor.

I'd be surprised if a few of the PLP aren't considering crossing the floor.

"Who'd want them?"

Good point. Now that they've shown themselves to be duplicitous traitorous scum, I doubt any mainstream party would welcome them with open arms. Even the LibDems. Because they now know they can't be trusted at all.

Really quite amusing watching John O'Donnell on AM yesterday pleading for everybody to be nice to each other ("which camera am I on?").

Presumably he'll not be accusing his fellow Members of Parliament of being "F***ing Useless" again, then? 😆

shown themselves to be duplicitous traitorous scum

I notice how easily extreme anger, banging tables, using language like 'scum', even violence and throwing bricks through windows, come to the far-left supporters, and I reckon most of the country see this as well, which is why, thankfully, a far left government will never get in.

Interesting that the wife of that idiot claiming Corbyn was going to 'phone his dad.... works for Owen Smith. Surprise surprise.

I'm sure a lot of people think that the anti-Corbyn plotters are working randomly when of course it is a highly coordinating campaign to discredit Corbyn.

Last Friday the Financial Times in a article described Saving Labour as a [i]"secretive group",[/i] I notice today that the Herald reports :

[url= http://www.heraldscotland.com/News/14638772.Labour_figures_call_for_probe_into__shadowy__anti_Corbyn_backer/ ]Labour figures call for probe into 'shadowy' anti-Corbyn backer[/url]

[i]"SENIOR figures within Labour are calling on the Electoral Commission to investigate a controversial group set up to oust Jeremy Corbyn as party leader. Prominent critics have labelled Saving Labour as a shadowy and anonymous organisation whose source of funding is unknown."[/i]

While the plotters appear to be highly incompetent their strategy of coordinated action goes back a long way.

Ten days before the EU referendum the Daily Telegraph reported :

[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/13/labour-rebels-hope-to-topple-jeremy-corbyn-in-24-hour-blitz-afte/ ]Labour rebels hope to topple Jeremy Corbyn in 24-hour blitz after EU referendum[/url]

Quote :

[i]By fanning the flames with front bench resignations and public criticism they think the signatures needed to trigger a leadership race can be gathered within a day.

Asked how the coup could take place, another said: “Things go wrong, people have had enough, you start to see resignations and it spirals from there."[/i]

The resignations were deliberately timed and spaced out to cause maximum effect and damage, that requires a significant level of planned coordinated action. You need some sort of structure for that.

Good point. Now that they've shown themselves to be duplicitous traitorous scum,

I doubt any mainstream party would welcome them with open arms. Even the LibDems. Because they now know they can't be trusted at all.

Of course they can be trusted by the political establishment, that's the whole point - the plotters are determined to uphold the status quo, even if it causes unimaginable damage to the Labour Party.

The person who can't be trusted is Jeremy Corbyn. He threatens not only the Labour elite but also the entire political class, including the Tories and the LibDems.

That's not the sort of politics that they want to see.

Sadly for them their days are numbered, even if they oust Corbyn from the leadership by rigging the election in their favour. They are living in the past - this isn't just about Corbyn anymore.

I reckon most of the country see this as well

That's pretty funny.. Which are we?
sandal wearing tree huggers or angry mobs!?

To be honest there may be an slight air of disgruntlement amongst the far left.
A party of social conscience being being met with disparagement and smear by the greedy and privileged gives rise to a little emotion

These accusations of aggression are more than a little insulting when you consider the callous and spiteful policies implemented by the right

A party of social conscience

I wonder if the Bangladesh sweatshop employees earning 30p an hour to make Jezza's campaign T-shirts might question this..

[quote=scotroutes ]I'd be surprised if a few of the PLP aren't considering crossing the floor.

Then resigning and standin again to their constituents as they are such principled individuals who respect democracy]They can do as they please as long as they resign in the process. I am usre they will as they are also hinest and principled

I notice how easily extreme anger, banging tables, using language like 'scum', even violence and throwing bricks through windows, come to the far-left supporters, and I reckon most of the country see this as well, which is why, thankfully, a far left government will never get in

"far left" is just a crappy insult designed to make them appear "extreme" when the reality is they are no closer to the far left that the Tory right is to fascism...still what do facts matter when you have RW axe to grind furiously

I have no idea what clods politics are but they are not far left - well perhaps to you but that is because you are way over to the right everyone else looks a long way away - a cheap insults its the best way to have an adult debate

"I notice how easily extreme anger, banging tables, using language like 'scum', even violence and throwing bricks through windows, come to the far-left supporters, "

Let's talk about bricks through windows.

Do you mean the brick that was apparently thrown through [i]a[/i] window of the building in which Angela Eagle's office was situated? A building in an area with a high incidence of vandalism. With absolutely no evidence that it was indeed thrown by a Corbyn supporter, or that it was even anything to do with Labour/Eagle/Corbyn at all. And if there's so much 'violence' by 'far left supporters', where's all the arrests?

I heard an older BBC report the other day, which mentioned the brick thrown through the window of 'Angela Eagle's office'. Which is disingenuous/ignorant at best, and a downright lie/deliberate distortion of facts at worst.

The only real 'aggression' I've witnessed of any Labour party member recently, was John Mann screaming at Ken Livingstone and trying (and failing) to accuse him of being anti-Semitic.

Speaking of 'anti-Semitism'; I've not bothered reading all the drivel posted over the weekend, but has Jambalay brought it up again (presumably because he's run out of other bullshit)?

Personally, I will refer to the Labour rebel's as 'scum', because it's them that are attempting to destroy the Labour party, and abuse the democratic process. It's people like them who have undermined and abandoned Labour's traditional core values. It's they who have lost sight of what they should be doing, and are instead concerned only with their own careers and progression at the expense of others.

I think 'scum' is an apt word.

TurnerGuy - Member

I notice how easily extreme anger, banging tables, using language like 'scum', even violence and throwing bricks through windows, come to the far-left supporters

Specially when it comes to discussing doing something kind and considerate like bombing the crap out a foreign country and leaving hundreds of thousands dead.

Just look at the hate in Corbyn's eyes as Hilary Benn made the case for bombing Syria. I reckon Hilary Benn lost the vote by a large margin because of the far-left's threat of unrestrained violence if it went against them.

[img] [/img]

And then they cycle home on their bikes to eat their cruelty-free vegan dinners ! ! Oh it makes me so angry that I feel like [i]" banging tables",[/i] but then I remember, and as you point out above, that's what far-left supporters do. The bastards. BTW what is it about tables that they hate so much which forces them to resort to such extreme violence anyway?

In contrast bombing-loving moderates who are opposed to Corbyn are the very epitome of calm and measured response, just look at binners contributions on this thread, this one for example :

binners - Member

It's the real deal THM. Ed Millibands parting gesture was to hand control of tge Labour Party to these *-wits. He's actually done more damage to labour than Blair invading Iraq!

He's cast them out to electoral oblivion. If there's a leadership election tomorrow, these muppets will re-elect Corbyn. And they'll be really pleased with themselves. Because they're awful middle class lefties, who will stand by and moan about equal rights for one-armed, free range, organic hermaphrodite marriage, while the Tory party take a torch to workers rights

They are the very worst human beings on the planet

It sounds fair and reasonable to compare unfavourably what Ed Miliband did with Blair invading Iraq, and to call all Corbyn supporters *-wits who are the very worst human beings on the planet. At least he didn't [i]"use language like scum",[/i] and I am sure no tables were banged in the process.

I think Clodhoppers ideal of the Labour party packed it in sometime in the late 1980s and early 1990's when the party realised it was never going to be elected ever again.

The people I hold in genuine and enduring contempt are the likes of Corbyn and the daydreaming left because they let the Tories hang around for far too long in the 1980s and 1990s inflicting their poison turning 'society' (bearing in mind there is no such thing as society!)into the collection of greedy self centred individuals we find ourselves now (whether we care to admit it to ourselves or not - we ride bikes and have 'leisure' so the poor in the third world can starve) and, whether you like it or not, that is now the accepted norm as far as the vast majority of people go. To try and turn the clock back to some pre-Thatcher (I can remember the 1970s being quite bleak as well) era golden socialist age that existed post WW2 is not going to happen, its just not - its like trying to pretend that that period of social change never happened - it did and to try to say or pretend otherwise is not what anyone wants.

I don't accept for a minute that the Labour MP's who voted against Corbyn are scum merely pragmatist who understand that to make any minimal changes to peoples lives, which is all that is open to politicians to do given the global economy we must exist in, you need to get your hands on the levers of power.

I listened to something on R4 last week, can't remember the program, which suggested the Labour party was finished as it had outlived its purpose, they pointed to the Liberals a century ago who now no longer exist in any meaningful sense. Perhaps the Labour Party has had its day as a national party.

I'm no Tory but there is always going to be a Tory Party because we are as a country small 'c' conservative and not particularly radical in nature. The purpose of any opposition is to keep the country from becoming too conservative 9or too leftward leaning) and toward the centre ground - the centre ground is the best that can be hoped for.

The New Labour movement were just that and as such perhaps the Lib Dem's will now be, don't know, but if the so called Labour rebels shift to the Lib Dems (read the Lib Dem constitution its quite interesting) then so be it as that will now be the best way of keeping the current Tory government toward the centre.

let the Tories hang around for far too long in the 1980s and 1990s inflicting their poison turning 'society' (bearing in mind there is no such thing as society!)into the collection of greedy self centred individuals we find ourselves now (whether we care to admit it to ourselves or not

That said i get why you want to be pragmatic but not everyone on the left does

What is wrong with aspiring for somethign other than "not quite as right wing as the Tories"

It may well be true you need the centre ground to win it may be that a left wing party can reinvigorate those who dont vote
Unless we try we wont know for certain

A labour party is only an opposition when it offers an alternative vision and view. It has not got one currently whether left or centrist so its screwed

The point I was trying to make, poorly, was it was also the fault of the hard left that made Labour unelectable and not a credible government in waiting.

A labour party is only an opposition when it offers an alternative vision and view

Like this one....?

[img] ?w=620&q=55&auto=format&usm=12&fit=max&s=0a9f9a958ea26d79a88ce3b4f26b37c5[/img]

Looks very similar. In fact, if it looks like a Miilitant Tendency, shouts like a Miilitant Tendency, and throws bricks through windows like a Miilitant Tendency, then its probably.....

Do you mean the brick that was apparently thrown through a window of the building in which Angela Eagle's office was situated?

I mean the window that was right next to her office, that coincidently had the brick thrown through it the day after she announced her challange to corbyn.

And members of her staff had received enough threats for the police to issue that warning that she should cancel her surgeries.

"The Merseyside police and crime commissioner, Jane Kennedy , said members of the “hard left” were creating a climate that encouraged such attacks and said the building, which also houses other businesses, would be given “special attention” by police. "

no you made that point well I just disagreed- I do get it though.

Typical MI5. Can't even get the right window.

To be fair Angela Eagle's Office is in Liscard in Wallasey, bricks through windows probably happen every other night 😉

any comment on the hard right individual killing a Labour MP then Turner or is just lefties who are baddies?

There is no doubt there is extreme bitterness on both sides and social media numbnuts and someone with a brick.

However to use these as proof of the [s]non Blairites[/s] "hard left - any more than using the murdering scum bag as an an example of the right it just to use the facts to fit your rampantly polemical political view

Hilary Benn made the case for bombing Syria

I think it was a case for bombing ISIS forces in Syria, the ones that were slaughtering huge numbers of civilians.

It was the same sort of argument that lead us to entering the war against Hitler, or would you rather we had left him to his own devices ?

It may well be true you need the centre ground to win

Well it is if you have fallen asleep and aren't aware to what is happening. 😉

[url= https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/mar/29/support-europes-mainstream-political-parties-parliaments ]Why is support for Europe's mainstream political parties on the wane?[/url]

[url= https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/25/across-europe-distrust-of-mainstream-political-parties-is-on-the-rise ]Across Europe, distrust of mainstream political parties is on the rise [/url]

[url= https://www.neweurope.eu/article/europes-mainstream-parties-stunned-ep-election-results/ ]Europe’s mainstream parties stunned by EP election results[/url]

[i]"Across the European Union (EU), parties of both the far-right and far-left made sweeping gains at the expense of the traditional parties of centre-right and centre-left."[/i]

The situation in Britain isn't that different to the rest of Europe and the US. What has happened to the Labour Party in the last year, not just with Corbyn's election but also in the massive increase in membership, could not have possibly happened 5 or 10 years ago, otherwise it probably would have done.

I wouldn't want to exaggerate the situation but the old rules which once applied in the past simply don't have the same application as they did previously.

It is the people who are constantly referring to the 1970s and 1980s who are living in the past. Politics is changing, slowly but surely. Smart suits, sound bites, and empty rhetoric well-delivered, no longer has quite the power it once had - it's increasingly turning people off.

I mean the window that was right next to her office

But not the window which had a sticker on it clearly identifying it as being Angela Eagle's office.

My neighbour had their car vandalised. I think it was an Owen Smith supporter trying to intimidate me.

EDIT : Sorry I got that wrong........it was definitely an Owen Smith supporter trying to intimidate me. What more proof could you possibly want ?

It is the people who are constantly referring to the 1970s and 1980s who are living in the past. Politics is changing, slowly but surely.

Hmmmmmm......

[img] [/img]

...what you're going to get is Tories in power for the forseeable. People who enjoy going on demos are going to have a whale of a time. That's why corb looks so bloody happy, he's in his element.

No need to post a picture binners - I know that you keep referring to the 1980s.

Erm, that was kind of my point - wasn't it obvious ?

I understand that your political 'knowledge' is limited to this forum and perhaps one or two articles in the Gaurdian, but Binners; please explain how, exactly, Corbyn supporters/Momentum are in any way like Militant?

And as per my earlier question (which you've as yet failed to answer), what exactly do you think will change, if Owen Smith* becomes Labour leader?

*I'm assuming you're voting for him for party leader, as he's the only other choice except Corbyn.

"The purpose of any opposition is to keep the country from becoming too conservative 9or too leftward leaning) and toward the centre ground - the centre ground is the best that can be hoped for."

People really, really need to get this idea that Corbyn is somehow 'hard left' out of their heads; he really isn't. He's a centre-left moderate. The 'hard left' 'Trotskyite' etc labels are nothing more than right-wing bollocks, designed to make Corbyn appear somehow 'dangerous' (because idiots have lost sight of what left wing politics is actually about, and become scared of anything beyond the current status quo). Once again; the reality is that UK politics has shifted so far to the right that the mythical 'centre ground' is now roughly where the Tories were in the early '80s. Labour, for all their woes, at least had sufficient support to hold the tories in check, then along came Blair and everything moved rapidly even further towards the right.

The only way UK politics can rebalance in the way people like Binners seem to think should happen, is for a moderate left party with actual left wing ideals, to become popular and offer a genuine opposition to the tories. Labour under puppets like Milliband, or Owen Smith etc, would only become increasingly irrelevant (much like the LibDems have), and then genuinely be 'unelectable'. With luck, there will soon be the much needed schism within Labour, and true Labor supporters, led by Corbyn, can get about the job of forming an effective opposition. The traitors will then be free to form their own irrelevant party and we'll be well rid of them.

I suspect we'd still have to endure Jamba and Binners' nonsense on here though. 😉

He's a centre-left moderate.

can get about the job of forming an effective opposition

This is the key issue. He hasn't formed an effective opposition yet. Or rather, he hasnt formed an opposition that has been clearly visible to be effective to the wider world.

I think he could, but I think to do so he needs to a) get some PR lessons and sharpen up his image which may be a bit of an anathema to him and b) be a bit more brutal in the commons.

I probably now need to go away and think about what actually is the 'centre ground' - that's quite interesting; time to reach for Rawls. Perhaps we have reached the end of history:

[i]'What we may be witnessing is not just the end of the Cold War, or the passing of a particular period of post-war history, but the end of history as such: that is, the end point of mankind's ideological evolution and the universalization of Western liberal democracy as the final form of human government.'[/i]

He's a centre-left moderate.

Just one who refuses to sing the national anthem and is an advocate of unilateral nuclear disarmament

Corbin Cream anyone....

Hold the Tories in check!!!!!!!!! Really.

Don't need to watch that vid to know it contains the line "... and then you've got your Peak Freen Trotsky assortment". Like a bit of Young Ones. 🙂

5thElefant - Member

He's a centre-left moderate.

😆

Well it should be extraordinarily easy for you to list all the policies which Corbyn supports that makes him a hard-left Trotskyite.

Don't spend too much time on it 5thElefant, as there's presumably so much to choose from just half a dozen or so will do it.

Or is your belief that Corbyn is a hard-left Trotskyite simply based on the fact that the Daily Mail or Daily Telegraph keeps telling you he is ?

And please don't tell me that you don't know his policies, that won't explain how you know that they are all hard-left Trotskyite policies.

Go on, do it .......prove me and clodhopper wrong.

binners - Member

"He's a centre-left moderate".

Just one who refuses to sing the national anthem and is an advocate of unilateral nuclear disarmament

So what is he ....... an SNP member or a hard-left Trotskyite ?

.

Don't tell me..........the SNP is a hard-left Trotskyite party ?

He appears to think he's a sixth former. Certainly couldn't be SNP. People vote for them.

[img] [/img]

Go on, do it .......prove me and clodhopper wrong.

The majority of the labour MPs are centre left. 170-odd of them. JC is to the left of them.

That was easy.

The majority of the PLP is centre left. 170=odd of them. JC is to the left of them.That was easy.

If that were not so it would be pretty hard to explain everything that's happened since McDonnell/Abbot/JC et al got together and agreed JC would stand.

Well it should be extraordinarily easy for you to list all the policies which Corbyn supports that makes him a hard-left Trotskyite.

If only he hadn't deleted the entire back catalogue of his musings from his website...

@Binners:

if it looks like a Miilitant Tendency, shouts like a Miilitant Tendency, and throws bricks through windows like a Miilitant Tendency, then its probably.....

" mean the window that was right next to her office, that coincidently had the brick thrown through it the day after she announced her challange to corbyn."

So where's the evidence it was her office that was targeted? Was the window 'right next to her office'? Images online show the actual window in question, with what appears to be a boarded up window next to it. According to various media reports, her actual office window had Labour campaign materials in it. I accept that it's a coincidence, but without any hard evidence, I think it's wrong to claim that it was indeed an attack by Corbyn supporters.

"And members of her staff had received enough threats for the police to issue that warning that she should cancel her surgeries.

"The Merseyside police and crime commissioner, Jane Kennedy , said members of the “hard left” were creating a climate that encouraged such attacks and said the building, which also houses other businesses, would be given “special attention” by police. "

Again, is there any actual evidence of such threats?

Let's have a look at the Merseyside police and crime commissioner, Jane Kennedy, shall we?

Former MP for Liverpool Broadgreen, then Liverpool Waverly. A Blairite, she voted in favour of the illegal Iraq war, and against the subsequent investigation into that war, has voted against a wholly elected upper house in Parliament, has voted for stricter immigration controls, for fox hunting, and for the replacment of Trident. Ms Kennedy is a member of Labour Friends of Israel and a former group chair.

I think it's safe to say Ms Kennedy is not a Corbynite. Her views are not representative of actual police policy.

I suspect her personal involvement in this matter isn't entirely from a neutral standpoint. 😉

"The majority of the labour MPs are centre left."

They're not, but if you chose to believe that, then it's entirely up to you.

Have another try.

They're not, but if you chose to believe that, then it's entirely up to you.

5thElefant - Member

The majority of the labour MPs are centre left. 170-odd of them. JC is to the left of them.

That was easy.

Apparently listing just a few of Corbyn's hard-left Trotskyite policies is so difficult that you couldn't manage to think of any.

The majority of the Labour MPs have never accused Corbyn of being a Trotskyite, they haven't even accused him of being hard-left, in fact it is extremely significant that they haven't criticized any of his beliefs.

They are however extremely critical of his performance during Prime Minister's Question Time. Apparently they are willing to split the party over the issue.

Actually, I've just given you proof that at least one former Labour MP is really quite right wing, up there^. Her views and voting history is shared by many current Labour MPs. Voting for war, against immigration, against democratic progress and supporting a nation with an extremely right wing regime, is hardly the behaviour of a 'centre left' MP. 😆

Apparently listing just a few of Corbyn's hard-left Trotskyite policies is so difficult that you couldn't manage to think of any.

If I were the leadership of the Conservative Party, I'd be trying to think of a reasonable excuse to hold a snap election after the recess and consign the Labour Party to history...

"JC is not centre left"

He is. It doesn't really matter that you don't think he is. The actual facts are what's relevant, not your misguided opinion.

Interesting that the critics of Corbyn on here seem unable to answer simple questions asked of them. I'm still waiting for Binners to explain how everything's going to be wonderful if Owen Smith is elected Labour leader. 🙄

He is.

Listen to the first few minutes of this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07jyrdn

He was put up in a meeting of non-centrists specifically to be the token hard left candidate. He got 'lent' nominations by centrists to give a voice to the left. Thousands of people have rushed to join the party to vote for him - they haven't done that because he's a centrist.

There is no way to explain the events of the last year or so if Corbyn is a centrist.

Just out of interest, on the issue of competency, Phillip Green has been savaged today for effectively asset stripping BHS, leaving the pension fund with a huge deficit, and thousands losing their jobs, while paying himself billions in dividends (which he paid no tax on) and revealing the shocking state of modern British Capitalism.

Theresa May (she's the Tory business friendly one, remember) has come out and condemned this as 'the unacceptable face of capitalism' and stated that Phillip Green should make up the shortfall in pension contributions.

Anyone heard anything from the labour party? Remember them? That champion of workers rights?

No?

Surely they'd have something to say on this?

No...?

Anyone...?

Bueller...?

Bueller...?

Bueller...?

.....

"Thousands of people have rushed to join the party to vote for him - they haven't done that because he's a centrist."

They've voted for him because he's a moderate centre-lefty. Not because he's a 'Trotskyite'.

5thElefant - Member

I think you may be confusing me for someone else. I have never typed Trotskyite. Well I have now. JC is not centre left.

Well what is he then ?

It would be interesting to know as Owen Smith, who is supported by the majority of Labour MPs - whose opinions you apparently value, claims to bit every bit as left-wing as Corbyn. He also claims however to have better presentation skills than Corbyn.

He sounds as if he might be a more dangerous left-winger !

In his own words :

[i]I am on the left of the Labour Party, I share many of Jeremy's values but I think I can talk about modernising those values, I think I can talk about Labour's future, in a way in which no other candidate, including Angela, can,"[/i] speaking to Channel 4 News on 13 July,.