They reveled in their totally politically-ineffectual troublemaking and voter-repelling ideological purity
Binners you really need to let go of your Derek Hatton obsession. I could introduce you to any number of labour activists who you would dismiss as leftwing nutters who not only put in hundreds of hours of legwork in the last election, but are also the very opposite of what you describe. Their only failing in the past 4 years, which they would admit, was having hope that a radical, green and progressive labour government was possible. They are the people who will put labour back into power, not the sneering and macchiavelian Oxbridge PPE careerists.
Well for a start Starmer could unambiguously condemn the actions of the people who are taking the party to court in order to enrich themselves
You mean repeat the defamation? Why? Why replace the leadership team only to double down on their mistakes?
This should be over and done with now, and forgotten by the time we get to any major election. Those that dug this hole should leave Starmer and his team to fill it in as they see fit, not keep digging. Their focus should be on encouraging Starmer to stick to their left wing policy base, not complain about his methods when he tries to clean up the mess they left the party in.
The party is currently trailing behind the leader in all the polls... he has to act, and act fast, to change that. He's not going fast enough in my opinion... but the resistance being put up to what he is doing by the outgoing leadership, and those that support them even when it really makes little sense to do so, is baffling, and depressing.
Binners you really need to let go of your Derek Hatton obsession. I could introduce you to any number of labour activists who you would dismiss as leftwing nutters who not only put in hundreds of hours of legwork in the last election, but are also the very opposite of what you describe.
You'll apparently have more luck arguing with a set of Daily Mail headlines.
Their only failing in the past 4 years, which they would admit, was having hope that a radical, green and progressive labour government was possible. They are the people who will put labour back into power, not the sneering and macchiavelian Oxbridge PPE careerists.
Absolutely agree, but looks like those lot are 'taking back control'.
Which PPE careerists are the problem here? Personally, I’m pleased that a career politican is no longer at the head of the Labour Party… a life of professional political activism is laudable, but it did not prepare him well for the challenge of leading a major political party, sadly.
For your bit of balance… Johnson’s “career” looks to have made him even less suitable to lead a party, never mind a country.
They are the people who will put labour back into power, not the sneering and macchiavelian Oxbridge PPE careerists.
Third time lucky?
Third time lucky?
It would be first time lucky, because we've never actually had a labour party offering a modern, radical, progressive and green vision to solve the problems we face. Many policies of the Corbyn leadership came close, but sadly they fell back on their outdated Bennite instincts when it came to the crunch. As I've said many times, they weren't radical enough. The next generation will be very different, as long as the current leadership doesn't allow itself to be dragged back in time to follow some outdated managerialist, don't rock the boat, politics-by-numbers approach as the Blairites would like.
Can we not wait ‘till the “next generation”, please?
Edit: Unless you just mean this generation, rather than the old dinosaurs not going quietly, in which case I share your hope.
Edit: And I like some of those dinosaurs, but they need to let people get on and mend the party, fast, in the eyes of the public.
they weren’t radical enough.
Good luck persuading the electorate to follow you down your radical path...
By radical, I hope he means 21st Century solutions, rather than what looks like 1970s ones.
Supporting distributed green energy initiatives, rather than miners [ gross over simplification ].
they weren’t radical enough.
Given that the electorate consists of racist pensioners who all vote and the under 30's who largely don't bother, good luck with that radical green agenda
I don't know if you noticed but they just elected an Old Etonian Winston Churchill tribute act who was promising a return to a sepia-tinted 1950's colonial myth?
Good luck persuading the electorate to follow you down your radical path…
Tony Blair, "one of Murdoch's closest friends".
What's your point, caller?
It's a picture of someone connected to someone else.
Makes you think...
Tony Blair, “one of Murdoch’s closest friends”.
Tony Blair, “one of Murdoch’s closest friends”. "last Labour Leader to win a general election".
An alternative view.
As I’ve said many times, they weren’t radical enough.
and as many of us have pointed out, and to which you've (on countless occassions) agreed. Are never, in a millions years going to happen in this country ever, as for the most part it's population is centre-right, and look upon such things as UB hell even electric cars, as a terrifying vision of a dystopian soviet style future world.
Anecdote: all the old Brexit and Tory voters I know are bang into solar power, electric car, recycle and reuse everything… there are votes in that there green agenda where you might not expect it… but you have to look very “pro-Britain” to get many of those votes, and there are many ways to do that without going all “anti-immigrant” or “centralise everything in London”… Blair understood that part, and it can’t be ignored (I never voted for him though).
You can sneak in a load of radical green policies without changing much of the status quo. FFS just do what the Tories do & do wtf you want after being elected.
Agree with Kelvin there are loads of votes in green issues especially if couched in make Britain great/green again.
By radical, I hope he means 21st Century solutions, rather than what looks like 1970s ones.
Of course I am. I thought that was clear from my 'outdated Bennite instincts' comment. 1970s Bennite socialism was outdated in the 1970s, let alone the 21st century. John McDonnell was the closest to the new breed of libertarian green progressives, but even he struggled to fully jump on board. The likes of Seamus and Len weren't stuck in the 70s, more like the 1920s.
Supporting distributed green energy initiatives, rather than miners [ gross over simplification ].
Exactly. I remember sometime around 2010 after the tories won the election the northern branch of the TUC organised a march against austerity in Manchester. One of the platform speakers was from the NUM, and spent 20 minutes ranting about how we had all the wealth we needed under the ground and all we needed to do was reopen the pits. It confirmed everything I ever thought about 70s era socialists.
Given that the electorate consists of racist pensioners who all vote and the under 30’s who largely don’t bother, good luck with that radical green agenda
Binners you really depress me sometimes. The reason young people don't vote is because there isn't a mainstream party which represents their interests. Your preferred flavour of labour politics is cynical reactionary liberalism, focused only on winning power whilst dismissing 'idealistic' causes such as climate change as hippy fantasism. And you wonder why the under-30s don't vote?
I agree with every word in that post dazh.
And with that... I'm going to stay away from this thread while we agree..
= ;87)
The reason young people don’t vote is because there isn’t a mainstream party which represents their interests.
Nonsense. You vote for the party that is closest to a party that represents what you want and how you think society should be run. No party fully represents my interests so I pick the closest one (Green party in my case). If you can't decide then at least go against a party that you know really doesn't represent your interests (tories in my case)
To just put your hands up in the air and don't bother doing anything is not the fault of the parties it is the fault of the under 30's who can't be bothered and not bothering is certainly not going to ever bring about anything that get's closer to representing them is it.
1+ Dazh
@ others:
If you can't what I'm saying with that picture, well then, I think that's called not seeing the forest for the trees?
If you can’t what I’m saying
Can you have a go at saying it?
If you can’t what I’m saying with that picture, well then, I think that’s called not seeing the forest for the trees?
Very 'Zen'
Thanks for the benefit of your wisdom and insight. I feel we've all learned something today
So now that EHRC has found the Labour Party under Jeremy Corbyns leadership was institutionally antisemitic, and there were 23 separate incidents of the leader's office interfering in complaints, I expect we'll have a statement from Jeremy showing contrition and apologising for it all happening on his watch
https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1321757758853681152?s=20
Oh wait... hang on a minute.... scratch that. What on earth was I thinking?
Instead, we'll have a statement of denial, absolutely no contrition whatsoever, playing the victim, dodgy conspiracy theories and his supporters taking to social media to deny antisemitism through the novel approach of being even more antisemitic.
I hope Starmer boots him out of the party, just to watch the sixth formers go into meltdown. It would provide the opportunity to draw a line once and for all under his disastrous leadership
While I agree that Corbyn was a disaster for Labour and for the UK, as he helped Boris get this massive majority, there seems to be a lot of anti Zionist people being called racist.
Do you really think Ken Livingstone is a racist?
Its bollox Bionners and you know it. labour did not suddenly become antisemetic under corbyn and antizionism is not anti semitism.
The problem of a few antisemites predates Corbyn. what this was was pure character assassination
Do you really think Ken Livingstone is a racist?
I don't believe that he is, but some of his comments were idiotic.
Do you really think Ken Livingstone is a racist?
Yes. Obviously. He's proved it on many occasions.
Its bollox Bionners and you know it. labour did not suddenly become antisemitic under corbyn and antizionism is not antisemitism.
All the evidence suggests it isn't bollox. I don't think the EHRC deal in bollox. They deal in evidence. Including listing 23 separate occasions where Jeremy Corbyn's office interfered in complaints of antisemitism. That sounds like giving the nod for people to express antisemitic sentiments to me. An atmosphere of tacit tolerance to it. Even a cursory glance at social media and the comments aimed at Luciana Berger from the Corbynite left would prove that. It was vile!
Basically, if it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, then it's....
But there are none so blind as those who still refuse to see
Its bollox Bionners and you know it.
Well, not according to the EHRC
In its report, the watchdog found the party responsible for three breaches of the Equality Act, namely:
Political interference in anti-Semitism complaints
Failure to provide adequate training to those handling anti-Semitism complaints
Harassment
In a statement, it said: "The equality body's analysis points to a culture within the party which, at best, did not do enough to prevent anti-Semitism and, at worst, could be seen to accept it."
From the Beeb
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54730425
At the risk of a little whataboutery here - when is the Conservative report into Islamaphobia due?
Labour are going to make themselves squeaky clean, but still be unelectable.
They’re conservatives, Islamaphobia is a vote winner.
So TJ knows better than the EHRC? Seems plausible.
Labour are going to make themselves squeaky clean, but still be unelectable.
Without the antisemites they'll be starting from scratch.
Labour are going to make themselves squeaky clean, but still be unelectable.
The trouble is that the left, by generally having principles, get held to a much higher level of scrutiny and have a much higher bar. Things like "Failure to provide adequate training to those handling anti-Semitism complaints" is hardly blatant racism, whereas we have a PM that literally says racist things on a regular basis. Unfortunately there are enough useful idiots to keep banging the drum, knocking down people who are clearly on the side of good (look at voting records). I hope they enjoy their new Tory MPs and it's all working out for them.
Subvert everything into a dismissive ad-hominem: racist, AS, sixth former. Social class is at the forefront of the battle lines not apartheid-excusing identity politics.
Luciana Berger has just been interviewed by Emma Barnett on Five Live
It's well worth listening to if you're in any doubt about the antisemitism of Corbyn and those around him. It's not an easy listen. She suffered constant harassment, intimidation, threats of physical violence, which were all brushed under the carpet and ignored by the leader's office. She was hounded out of the party because she was Jewish.
Nice.
As a labour party member, I hope Starmer kicks the lot of them out of the party. It's absolutely appalling that it's come to this. How the **** did the labour party even get itself into this position? Where the leadership of the party was tacitly approving of racism (let's call it what it is, eh?) and allowing people to be hounded out of the party through threats of violence.
And the person responsible for it is still refusing to apologise
A country that has different apartheid laws for different sections of the population is necessarily racist. By boycotting South Africa were we being racist against the Boers?
What on earth are you banging on about?
Being anti-South African apartheid was not racist and being anti-Zionist apartheid is not racist.
South Africa?
Being anti-zionist is not being antisemitic.
Jeremy Corbyn, however, is both. The evidence of that has just been published this morning. in great detail.
Have a listen to the Luciana Berger interview and see if you can maintain the ridiculous notion that he isn't. A representative of the EHRC is presently being interviewed on Five Live and is listing the hundreds of complaints they investigated of antisemitism against the leader's office. Not one or two. Not tens. Hundreds.
You keep your head buried in the sand if you like. There seem to be plenty people who still refuse to believe that the sainted Jeremy could ever do any wrong, no matter how much evidence is put before them.
To be fair to the Labour Party the post about Luciana Berger isn't balanced:
"She suffered constant harassment, intimidation, threats of physical violence, which were all brushed under the carpet and ignored by the leader’s office. "
This would seem to imply that Luciana's Berger's treatment was reserved for her as a Labour MP. The reality is that harassment, intolerance, intimidation, threats and an unwillingness to debate on facts in a courteous manner isn't just reserved for others on the left - it's also dished out to literally anyone that has a different perspective or fails to say they agree with the "required" position.
At the last but one election our Labour MP made a great deal out of free speech whilst the local activists were spending most of their time abusing and harassing other candidates standing for election.
Their conduct extended to abusing the neighbours of the other candidates, telling the children of one candidate that the parent was a pedophile and screaming abuse at the other candidates as they went canvassing on doorsteps.
In one case residents had a load of momentum activists screaming abuse at the candidate on residents' doorsteps - the activists were patently unaware of the judgement locals would make on them / their candidate because of their own behaviour.
The intolerance of some on the left is also clearly deemed acceptable by senior Labour leaders including Sir Kier - as evidenced by his inaction over one of his front bench calling a political opponent "Scum" in the House of Commons - which then resulted in the recipient and his family being called scum by local activists.
If Kier does anything (which seems unlikely based on past form) it should be to restore the norms of courteous discourse to the Labour Party. For a democracy to work well we need ideas to be tested and challenged in the interests of finding the best possible way forward - and part of that is listening to each other without immediately making value judgements and resorting to abuse and intimidation.
He's just been suspended from the party.
https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1321800172607840257?s=19
From a couple of Jewish members of the twitterati:
Andrew Feinstein Retweeted
Tom London
@TomLondon6
·
2h
Jeremy Corbyn is one of the leading anti-racists of his generation
The fact that the Establishment - scared of his Socialism and of his support for Palestinian human rights - have painted his as an antisemite is the most disgusting piece of PROPAGANDA in UK in modern times
Of course, it is.
*wanders off to Twitter to watch it go into meltdown*
I don’t believe that he is, but some of his comments were idiotic.
This is such a stupid thing to say. If you say something racist your racist end of. Don't excuse his behaviour away.
Corbyn's response was entirely anticipated by Labour, and their response to it was ready to roll. I'm sure he knew what would happen too, and is happy to be marched to the gallows.
Be interesting to see if any of the other previously Corbynite MPs stick their heads above the parapet in support. Sir Kier will be hoping so, I think.
Be interesting to see if any of the other previously Corbynite MPs stick their heads above the parapet in support.
I've just checked and Richard Burgon has gone very quiet. Not a peep out of Rebecca Long-Bailey either
I'm sure Jezza will revel in his martyrdom. He'll be loving this. And the usual tinfoil hat brigade will see it as proof of their persecution complex
I’ve just checked and Richard Burgon has gone very quiet
You won't have long to wait, I'm sure 🙂
‘I never would consider myself as a career politician. I had in my mind that I would be a diligent constituency MP, and also be a voice for socialist politics from the back benches. So I wasn’t going to bend my views or keep my mouth shut in order to try and get promotions.' Richard Burgon (2018)
Not looking to defend Corbyn - but we have an openly racist party actually in power. It just shows how far this country has slipped.
It’s more the mask that’s slipped rather than actual levels of racism
He’s just been suspended from the party.
Which shows your lot how to behave.
It’s more the mask that’s slipped
Talking of which...
What, specific, occurences of anti-semitism are referenced in the report?
Read it yourself
I have read it (scan read it). I'm curious to know what is defined as antisemetism. Unless I'm mistaken, I can't see a definition within the report?
I’m curious to know what is defined as antisemetism.
It's more or less whatever Netanyahu says is anti-Semitism.
I can’t see a definition within the report?
On page 20 top of page 21 wrt unlawful acts under the 2010 Equality Act:
Our investigation focused on whether the Labour Party committed unlawful acts
of discrimination or victimisation relating to race or religion, or harassment
relating to race:
• race: meaning Jewish ethnicity
• religion and / or belief (religion): meaning Judaism.
He'll have more time to spend on his allotment now..
Thank you John, i missed that.
I'm still dubious that any findings in the report relate directly to religion.
I have read it (scan read it). I’m curious to know what is defined as antisemetism. Unless I’m mistaken, I can’t see a definition within the report?
strictly speaking, it's not the purpose of the report to define antisemitism. they are investigating if the equality act of 2010 was broken. It was, and specifically in relation to the treatment of, and attitude towards jewish ethnicity and judaism. Therefore antisemitism took place
Antisemitism: hostility to, prejudice, or discrimination against Jews.
I’m curious to know what is defined as antisemetism
Annex 3 - Legal Annex
I can’t see a definition within the report?
It's in Annex 3, basically the IHRA definition - the one that the Home Office does not use.
This is such a stupid thing to say. If you say something racist your racist end of. Don’t excuse his behaviour away.
I see you're working hard to maintain polite levels of discourse. You're also wrong. Firstly because calling his behaviour "idiotic" is the opposite of excusing it. Secondly because I didn't say he had said something racist. Thirdly is because if we hang everyone who made a slightly unfortunate remark decades ago, and which they now regret, there won't be many left who meet your puritanical ideals.
More utter bullshit from the right-wing of the party, but it's hardly surprising given their history and their sneering supporters like binners and the centrist commentariat.
I particularly liked the "Political interference in anti-Semitism complaints", such as the time EVIL JEREMY CROBYN "interfered" to accelerate investigations against Ken Livingstone... which is a bad thing, apparently??
OFC the irony of wailing about Corbyn's "purges" of the party will be lost as they gleefully remove any left-leaning member and melt back into Blair Pt 2. Just as long as the Red Team win, who cares what they stand for, right?
It’s in Annex 3, basically the IHRA definition – the one that the Home Office does not use.
I believe the IHRA definition includes examples of anti-zionism. Which is deeply unhelpful.
strictly speaking, it’s not the purpose of the report to define antisemitism. they are investigating if the equality act of 2010 was broken. It was, and specifically in relation to the treatment of, and attitude towards jewish ethnicity and judaism. Therefore antisemitism took place
My understanding is that the report was able to establish that Jews were treated less favourably than people overall. Which is very disappointing but not very surprising. I believe that many if not most large employers are breaking the law with regard to their treatment of people with protected characteristics.
More utter bullshit from the right-wing of the party,
Last time I checked the EHRC aren't the "right wing of the party".
It’s in Annex 3, basically the IHRA definition – the one that the Home Office does not use.
Or not
The IHRA definition is not legally binding. To identify any unlawful acts by the Labour Party we need to apply the definitions contained in the Equality Act 2010.This is the approach that we have taken throughout this investigation. We do not comment on the IHRA definition for other purposes.We are satisfied that the unwanted conduct we identify in Annex 2 meets the definition of harassment without reference to the IHRA definition and examples.But we are also satisfied that it would meet the IHRA definition and its examples of antisemitism.
Today showing that the left is still ****ed and will be for some time.
More utter bullshit from the right-wing of the party,
Have they infiltrated the EHRC? The bastards! Will they stop at nothing?
Last time I checked the EHRC aren’t the “right wing of the party”.
They aren't, but they're not the ones who suspended Corbyn.
The report points out failings, all of which were improved under the previous labour leadership - more effective handling of complaints (thanks to firing Sam Matthews who was sitting on complaints to score points against the party), accelerating investigations into antisemitism (which is a bad thing apparently), etc. OFC this has all been spun as any/all failings being directly caused by Corbyn and the left.
Also: lol at jumping to the defence of the EHRC, known bastions of neutrality (who don't think there's any reason to investigate the Conservative party). AFAICS your barometer for good/bad is "hates Corybn"/"literally anyone else".
More/better words here: https://jacobinmag.com/2020/10/labour-antisemitism-report-ehrc-corbyn-commission
None of this is surprising. The more membership and possibly union funds drift away the more the LP will be dependent on Starmer's sponsors, who'll be quite pleased. Lord Sainsbury also funds the Tories, who'd have guessed?
People may joke about tin foil hats, I understand your stance, but who do you think appoints the commissioners to the EHRC?
It'll be interesting to see the next polling. Booting grandad out of the party so publically, and with some considerable justification, will no doubt be a huge vote-winner.
As statements go about the party being 'under new management', it's a biggie. Not that they had any choice, given his response of continued denial
People may joke about tin foil hats, I understand your stance, but who do you think appoints the commissioners to the EHRC?
is it the elders of Zion?
but they’re not the ones who suspended Corbyn.
Corbyn has been suspended because of the statement he made today. He could have chosen a Mea Culpa, but instead he chose not to, and continued (in the face of a pretty damning report) to be evasive and suggest reports of antisemitism have been "dramatically overstated". You may not like it, or Kier Stamer, and I've no real beef with Corbyn, but this is what it should look like; immediate suspension and proper investigation...The thing the report concludes that Corbyn was incapable of doing himself; repeatedly.
Today showing that the left is still **** and will be for some time.
It will be as long as their 'own side' care more about appeasing the racists on the right wing than defending members and politicians who have given decades of their life to the party. It's amazing that people in the labour party and the wider labour 'movement', including those in the media who are supposedly sympathetic to the centre-left, have allowed the right wing to brand them as racists whilst allowing the racism on the right to be completely ignored.
You know, the racism which allows a western government's army to murder kids with almost no criticism. The racism which allows bombs to be dropped indiscriminately on communities as punishment for the actions of extremists. The racism which allows a whole country to be effectively imprisoned behind a wall and left to poverty and destitution. I hear very little about that racism, and it seems the current labour leadership has decided to ignore it and enable it at the altar of political expediency.
I'm done with them (was a while ago tbh). They do not represent the interest of working people or the cause of social justice and fairness. They represent only their own tawdry ambition. I hope to god they get nowhere near power.
Booting grandad out of the party so publically, and with some considerable justification, will no doubt be a huge vote-winner.
Yep, huge win for the Labour Party as a political party, can see this helping them a lot on their way back from electoral desert.