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As I understand it, there are disagreements as to whether homosexuality now means same sex attracted or same gender attracted.
Rainper, why not create one? Starting with a dating website first if you need, then growing into a full app when you gain knowledge and clients etc?
If none exist, doesn't mean you can't do it, could also be a financial winner too
Rainper, why not create one? Starting with a dating website first if you need, then growing into a full app when you gain knowledge and clients etc?
If none exist, doesn’t mean you can’t do it, could also be a financial winner too
weeksy, there were apps (such as dating app called 'Her') and other online groups, but they are now 'inclusive' and (another term that I hate) 'queer'. Women who object to this are kicked out of these spaces, and anyone trying to set up 'women-only' groups are accused of bigotry.
Did you see my earlier comment about an app called Giggle?
When Sal Grover started Giggle it was more 'inclusive' but the behaviour of non-female users made her change her mind. Since making the app for females only (and speaking up about women's rights) Sal faces rape and death threats, regular receiving dick pics, with many of these accompanied by words 'choke on my girl cock'.
https://twitter.com/salltweets
regular receiving dick pics
That's not reserved for Lesbians though, there seems to be small contingent of men who think its acceptable to send them to any women eg phone numbers on lost cat posters etc.
I apologise to anyone offended by the language used in my previous post, but this is the day to day reality of a legion of women. I can understand that some people are not aware it this is happening, but others (who are fully aware) dismiss it a 'banter' or imply 'she was asking for it'. Police forces have implied the latter when women have reported the abuse they are receiving, often from people with rainbows or pink and blue flags in their twitter bios.
It's normally pretty easy to recognise an "international taking the piss day" and ignore it.
weeksy, there were apps (such as dating app called ‘Her’) and other online groups, but they are now ‘inclusive’ and (another term that I hate) ‘queer’. Women who object to this are kicked out of these spaces, and anyone trying to set up ‘women-only’ groups are accused of bigotry.
Did you see my earlier comment about an app called Giggle?
When Sal Grover started Giggle it was more ‘inclusive’ but the behaviour of non-female users made her change her mind. Since making the app for females only (and speaking up about women’s rights) Sal faces rape and death threats, regular receiving dick pics, with many of these accompanied by words ‘choke on my girl cock’.Tweets by salltweets
I think the issue with making a non-inclusive group is that you have to define who is not going to be included and why.
I've asked several time on this thread but what is your definition of 'female'? I saw earlier you said what 99.99% would agree is female but I find that to be an outdated attitude. Even if you believe that being transgender is not a real thing you are still going to have do decide whether or not you are going to exclude intersex people.
Do you include cisgender women who artificially change their hormone level such as bodybuilders? Do you include transgender men?
I read some Sall Grover's tweets including the open letter. I find it interesting that she doesn't mention the AI gender identification software in her letter. I understand why it would upset many people. It's ethically questionable for many reasons before we even question whether it is transphobic or not.
Saying that, no one should receive threats of any kind. That should go without saying. I do question her suggestion that all the death and rape threats come from trans rights activists. I would think it would be more likely that a significant number of threats come from the scumbags who like to threaten women for being lesbians, transgender, a politician, on tv, and pretty much anything really.
The suggestion that all trans rights activists threaten women is wrong.
One tweet that caught my eye was this:
https://twitter.com/salltweets/status/1399977580908924931
To me this is misrepresenting science and pretending a minority of the population does not exist because they are inconvenient.
Sex charecteristics exist. Biological sex as a purely binary option does not. Most people exhibit enough of these characteristics to fit nicely in the Male and Female category. A minority do not (but still a larger population than the transgender population).
It’s normally pretty easy to recognise an “international taking the piss day” and ignore it.
Is this is response to anything shared on this thread?
If you are trying to promote the idea that a section of society’s identity is ‘just in their head’ and misrepresenting science in order to do so then they should expect to face backlash.
This is exactly (or very close to) what the gay community in the 50's, 60's and 70's faced and the prime driver of Stonewall being involved in trans issues. They know what the trans community members are experiencing and stand with them in solidarity. (See my Grace Petrie gig attendances have born fruit, go me!)
It's a knotty problem.
Even if you believe that being transgender is not a real thing you are still going to have do decide whether or not you are going to exclude intersex people.
You really like putting word's in people's mouths don't you. I have never said anything of the sort about transgender people and, as for intersex, when you were pulled up over this you arrogantly and loudly shouted down the poster. If you look, you will find plenty of people whom you would call 'intersex', who consider that term offensive.
As for the AI thing on the Giggle app, perhaps if men didn't force there way into spaces where they are not wanted it wouldn't be necessary.
You're coming across as a bully. I hope people can see that.
You really like putting word’s in people’s mouths don’t you. I have never said anything of the sort about transgender people
Sorry, I'm making assumptions. I'm struggling a bit because beyond you saying, 'what 99.99% would agree are female' I don't have anything else to go on. If you can tell me what you consider biologically female to be I'll try not to make any more assumptions.
and, as for intersex, when you were pulled up over this you arrogantly and loudly shouted down the poster.
I pointed out that many of the intersex groups have intersex in their name. I acknowledge that some people do not like the term but my understanding is that part of the reason for this is that the idea the biological sex is entirely binary is so entrenched in society that being anything other than 100% male or 100% female marks you out as abnormal. I think society would be better if it acknowledged that Sex characteristics are binary but biological sex is not.
There are actually more people out there who are intersex (or have variations in sexual development, whatever name you prefer) than are transgender.
As for the AI thing on the Giggle app, perhaps if men didn’t force there way into spaces where they are not wanted it wouldn’t be necessary.
Giggle's verification software wasn't brought in because men were trying to force their way onto the site, it was part of the software's initial development.
Like I said, it's questionable for many reasons before we even question whether it is discriminatory towards transgender and intersex people.
You’re coming across as a bully. I hope people can see that.
I'm honestly not trying to bully anyone and I'm not trying to score points. I think the question of biological sex, individual gender identity, and society's perception of gender is one of the most fraught and important issues we have to deal with today.
There are a lot of people making absolute statements when it comes to this issue and I think if people are going to make such strong statements it's important to understand where they are coming from.
if men didn’t force there way into spaces where they are not wanted it wouldn’t be necessary.
But is that a problem of all TG M->F (let's be honest, it's that direction that is the issue more than F->M TG) that means that all TG women need excluding, or just a problem with some?
I don't know the answer, I don't pretend to. The minority spoiling it for the majority, collateral damage, better safe than sorry.....
That's maybe the nuance I don't get, a community that I assume is pro-inclusivity also being exclusionary. But I also get a bit better why that is the case, because some people are just nasty (irrespective of race, age, gender, orientation.......)
There are a lot of people making absolute statements when it comes to this issue and I think if people are going to make such strong statements it’s important to understand where they are coming from.
I can tell you that to the women who've read your posts, you come across as someone who does not respect the rights of women to have boundaries, especially when you keep shouting 'biological sex is complicated' and demanding definitions.
@rainpiper
Is this is response to anything shared on this thread?
Yes, something on the first page. Which I thought was the last page, on account of the forum displaying the thread as only having a handful of posts. Admittedly had I looked closer, I would have noticed the error, and I should have realised that it was inherently unlikely that a thread of this nature wouldn't have gone the way it has within a very short space of time, thus making it statistically unlikely that I would have chanced upon it whilst it was still so young.
I can tell you that to the women who’ve read your posts, you come across as someone who does not respect the rights of women to have boundaries,
I believe all women have the right to boundaries. The problem is that if you have exclusionary boundaries you have to be very specific about who is excluded and how you are going to police this exclusion. Otherwise you end up with women being assaulted because they don't look female enough:
especially when you keep shouting ‘biological sex is complicated’ and demanding definitions.
Like I said, if you are going to create an exclusionary space you have to know who you are going to exclude and why.
Biological sex is straightforward for most. For some it's not.
While we've come a long way still miles to go. Best mate from School came out as gay. It's crazy what he's been through with his family. Also him and his partner live in a very metropolitan part of the UK but still receive abuse and wouldn't do normal things like hold hands etc in public.
Homophobia still very much alive and kicking in the UK.
It feels to me quite sad the way this thread is going.
60 years ago being a gay man was a criminal offence. Coming out (or being outed) as LGBT virtually always meant losing at least one of your family, friends, job, house etc. There were no gay rights, no same sex marriages or civil partnerships, no protection from abuse or discrimination.
PRIDE should be a celebration of how much things have moved on.
I'm not saying things are perfect. Rainper I agree with the vast majority of what you say. Militant inclusivity doesn't feel like the way forward to me. My only slight issue is it seems that you are possibly implying (note very careful use of language) that trans women are all bad for wanting to impinge on cis-womens rights and safe spaces, with the potential issues this causes. IME this only applies to the small minority of very vocal activists. Every trans-woman I know doesn't think it's fair that they can compete in women's sports, doesn't want access to women's safe spaces for any reason other than for safety themselves. In a similar way, the vast majority of Muslims are not suicide bombers. Apologies if this is not what you are implying.
The issues you've had with dating and apps are clearly totally unacceptable but having done internet dating a few years ago it doesn't surprise me. The number of nutters and psychopaths on these sites is truly jaw dropping. In my case (non binary, mostly male, looking for female) what started as a normal conversation turned into her sending me topless photos along with a demand for £500 by Paypal gift as a tribute! Another demanded I babysat her kids before we'd even met. Then when I refused she accused me of being a paedophile and threatened to tell everyone on Facebook. Not as bad as dick pics I agree, but not normal behaviour.
As a society we do need to have a sensible conversation about how we move forward on trans rights and it feels to me like we firstly have to accept that the simple man/woman classification is no longer adequate. This causes issues in areas such as changing rooms, toilets, safe spaces, prisons, sports, clothing etc. I don't know what the answer is but I don't think the different parts of L,G,B,T,Q etc fighting among ourselves is the answer.
In summary, I'm very pro women's rights and protections, and trans rights and protections whilst acknowledging these are not the same and shouldn't be lumped in together.
Can we still Be Kind?
However, if you are going to make statements like that I think it’s fair to ask what definition you are using for biological sex.
changing long-standing definitions of words like “biological sex” and “lesbian” without permitting debate is perhaps not the best way to achieve mutual understanding and harmony.
changing long-standing definitions of words like “biological sex”
Which long standing definition?
Which long standing definition?
That doesn’t even warrant a reply
changing long-standing definitions of words like “biological sex” and “lesbian” without permitting debate is perhaps not the best way to achieve mutual understanding and harmony.
Personally I want the debate which is why I've been asking how other people define biological sex.
To me it involves the chromosomes the person has, their morphology, and the levels of hormones their bodies produce.
In the majority of the population these are all in alignment and you can apply biological male or biological female label fairly confidently. In a small proportion of the population (but still a larger proportion than the transgender population) these sex characteristics don't all align.
This is where I'm coming from when I say biological sex is not binary. Only the sex characteristics are binary.
This is why I think that saying biological sex is binary is wrong.
As for the definition of lesbian, I don't think I've tried to apply any definition. If I have then can you show me where? It wasn't my intention.
I have to say, until today, I didn't realise just how serious the conflict between trans rights people and some feminists was. I was aware there was some friction but after doing quite a bit of reading today I'm really worried about the progressive movement in general.
https://pennyred.medium.com/terf-wars-why-transphobia-has-no-place-in-feminism-60d3156ad06e
I came across this piece by Laurie Penny and I could have quoted any number of sections. However, I think this is the most important thing to remember about this conflict:
At a recent meeting of the American anti-LGBT hate group Family Research Council, Meg Kilgannon, executive director of Concerned Parents and Educators of Fairfax County, identified a wide coalition of potential allies outside the Christian Right who could help drive trans people back into the closet. Here’s her advice on how to draw them in:
“Explain that gender identity rights only come at the expense of others…Divide and conquer. For all its recent success, the LGBT alliance is actually fragile and the trans activists need the gay rights movement to help legitimize them…Trans and gender identity are a tough sell, so focus on gender identity to divide and conquer… If we separate the T from the alphabet soup we’ll have more success.”
Are you next going to quote Nancy Kelley (Stonewall) comparing people who believe that sex is real (and it matters) with anti-semitism.
And, as you're pulling in stories from the USA, don't you think there might just be a very real conflict of rights where significant numbers of males (including rapists and murderers) who self identify as women are being transferred into women's prisons. Or is this just progress, with women as collateral damage?
@boriselbrus thank you for your recent post, this thread seemed to be on a downward spiral and you've helped rein it in. 🤞
Edit: spoke too soon ☹️
Are you next going to quote Nancy Kelley (Stonewall) comparing people who believe that sex is real (and it matters) with anti-semitism.
Sorry, but I think now you're the one putting words in my mouth.
And, as you’re pulling in stories from the USA, don’t you think there might just be a very real conflict of rights where significant numbers of males (including rapists and murderers) who self identify as women are being transferred into women’s prisons. Or is this just progress, with women as collateral damage?
The US 'Justice' system is horrific. The percentage of their population that they incarcerate is ridiculous and the limited distinction between violent and non-violent offenses is incredibly dangerous.
I'm not going to come up with a solution here because it would take a massive overhaul of US society to fix the problems they have with their prison system.
What I will do is ask you this. Is this really a zero sum game? If transgender women are left in men's prisons is it acceptable that they are just collateral damage?
I think there should be a solution where no one is getting raped or murdered in prison.
Loooooong post...sorry.
Hey all
I’ve held off commenting on here - I’m not super active but lurk/read regularly - but I want to throw my two pennies worth in. I’m not looking for an argument - life’s busy and arguing on the net is not top of my list of stuff to do tbh…
Firstly, I really appreciate the folks entering into dialogue with an open mind, sharing experiences and trying to get their heads around the issues. I’ve read the thread and I’m putting myself in the position of a trans person reading this and there’s a few things that I think it’s worth saying, because I wouldn’t speak up if I was that trans person.
No-one’s denying the rights of someone to feel safe in a space - but I can’t help feeling that some of the language being used about trans folks in this thread mirrors what would have been said about LGB folks a few decades ago: “I don’t want them in my space”, “I don’t feel safe with them around”, “they’re not my people”.
I think it’s worth remembering, or learning, for folks who aren’t too up on LGBTQ+ history - that trans people were an integral part of the ‘scene’ since the very beginning - chucking bricks at coppers at the Stonewall Inn, etc, and as much as middle-class straight-passing gays might like to ignore it, it’s the trans folks, femme guys, butch girls and the like that get 90% of the abuse on the street. I marched in my first Pride event when I was 15 back in 1995, and have been doing stuff since, and there’s always been trans and non gender-conforming people involved.
I’ve been, and still am, friends with trans people both m>f and f>m, as well as drag queens, non-binary folks and even cis folks (I’ve done A-level chemistry, and it just means the opposite of trans, please take it up with Wikipedia if there are still issues please). I can assure you that they’re all more bothered about the fact that no-one in the Uk does F>M lower surgery anymore so people are stuck with half-completed procedures, or that friends and family are going to reject them, or they’ll get attacked (again) in the street. In my experience, they’re often acutely aware that if they ‘pass’ as their preferred gender, and pull when out and about - not being upfront very early could well lead to a dangerous situation down the line. As the stats come in at about 1 in 4 Trans people in the UK having attempted suicide and 9 in 10 having thought about it - I’d have thought the vast majority have more pressing concerns than coming up with a dastardly scheme to catch sight of some genitals in a changing room.
For a bunch of people that have usually been on the receiving end of at the very least verbal abuse, bullying, coming-out worries, etc., and at the worst physical attacks, there’s a very vocal minority in the ‘LGB’ community who seem to be challenged by their world being cracked open a bit. For example - I’m bemused as to why, if it’s so obvious that’s someone’s Trans on a dating site, and that wasn’t your bag, that you wouldn’t just move on to someone who is your type.
There’s tons of right-wing, evangelical, religious, and politically-motivated opposition to the LGTBQ+ community as a whole, both in the UK (still) and more widely abroad that are rubbing their hands at this, and I still question the tie-in between American evangelical anti-LGBTQ+ groups like the Heritage Foundation and some of the key players in the LGB Foundation.
Are there conversations to be had about how best to navigate accommodating Trans people in sport, or what happens in someone transitions in a single-sex school, or how to deal with the tiny minority of predators? Yep, there probably are - but I’d question whether throwing our trans cousins under the bus, who’ve been allies and part of the crew for bloody ages, is really the way to build bridges.
Oh, and by the way - all those folks who are saying the UK has been a wonderland for LGBTQ+ people since 1066 or thereabouts - I must have imagined sofa surfing with friends for 18 months when I was 16, being put in hospital when I was 18, and being sacked when I was 23 (early highlights). Your anecdotes are lovely and they make my big gay heart heart glow, but they doesn’t mirror the experience of most LGBTQ+ people growing up back then, or some even now.
How hard can it be simply to switch universally to individual unisex toilets and changing rooms?
I don’t imagine many people of any kind really like getting their bits out in public.
Regarding the definitions, why not use sex and define women as adult human females, with female determined by chromosomes, XX? Thus trans women are male, XY.
There will be a small number of people who have a difference in sex development (DSD), with male or female (in as much as its anyones business!) defined by gamete production?
I feel the change in language has caught out some spaces which used 'woman' as a synonym for 'female' when they were set up - women's refuges, prisons and sports being three examples. This also affects quotas - for example 'number of women on FTSE boards' kind of things...
Regarding prisons, trans units may be the way forward, protecting both women and trans women. AS far as sports goes, make the male categories open (wherte they aren't already), or set up new categories?
this is rapidly following the non-binary thread that got closed. It was meant to be a mention that it's Pride month and some nice thoughts (albeit at primary school level, apparently)
Can we either drop it or close it now.
As the stats come in at about 1 in 4 Trans people in the UK having attempted suicide and 9 in 10 having thought about it
This is very hard reading for me as back in 1999 I watched a dear friend of mine go through the struggles during a transition from M>F.
what I will never forget is the night she was attacked after some drinks, and her having a complete break down because this was becoming normality when out and about. She would get sneered at, spat at, punched, groped and called every name imaginable.
What I will never forgive myself for is not recognising the night she came over a few days later for what it was. She thanked me for being her friend when everyone else had turned their back on her, and very subtly, said goodbye.
It was only when I found her the next day after she had hung herself that I realised the true meaning of that conversation.
I don’t have the answers, and we are further on than we were back then, but we still have a very long way to go.
this is rapidly following the non-binary thread that got closed. It was meant to be a mention that it’s Pride month and some nice thoughts (albeit at primary school level, apparently)
Can we either drop it or close it now.
I'm not sure if people in the UK realise it but the level of transphobia is a lot higher than elsewhere.
I'm looking at it from outside the country and I'm actually quite shocked at the difference in attitudes between people who I know in my current country (Norway) compared to people from my hometown. This is in real life, by the way, not just from forums and social media.
I don't think the answer is to not discuss it. I'm not 100% sure what the answer is.
I just wish people in the UK could see what it looks like to the rest of the world.
https://www.vice.com/en/article/889qe5/trans-rights-uk-debate-terfs
The discussion has been informative for sure, and could continue to be but we just seem to be in danger of going back around the XX vs XY, sex vs gender, and so on that derailed the last thread.
@theotherjonv Thank you for starting what should have been a happy, positive thread. Maybe some of the haters will modify their views over time and regret some of the things they said.
@jeed Thanks for your post, you write very well and made some really good points
Meantime we will have our own Pride day today. Rainbow clothes, and later a rainbow barbecue with lots of cheesy music. There will be ABBA. 🌈🎶❤️ My partners daughter is VERY excited.
Love to everyone being kind.
The discussion has been informative for sure, and could continue to be but we just seem to be in danger of going back around the XX vs XY, sex vs gender, and so on that derailed the last thread.
I have to say, this thread and the NB one have really opened my eyes to what is going on the UK right now. Like I said, I'm observing this from a country that has already legally implemented everything that we have discussed here. This is why it feels so bizarre to me.
I'll be honest, I've had a mental picture in my head of what the people here I disagree with are like and my mental picture is closer to Stuart Campbell than Germaine Greer. I now know that that is probably not the case.
Stuart Campbell is just one example of who feminists are currently in bed with. He was never known to be a champion of women's rights. In fact, he was known to be a raging misogynist.
https://ahdinnaeken.wordpress.com/2013/08/25/nationalist-front-misogynist-exposed-as-rape-apologist/
And yet he seems to have had a Road to Damascus moment and is now a feminist who strongly supports JK Rowling (previously his mortal enemy). I would suggest he is actually still a raging misogynist and 'Women's Rights' is a convenient vehicle to promote his trans-phobic views.
Take a good hard look at the people who are supporting you and ask yourself if they are still going to be on your side once transgender people are back in the closet.
Sorry, but the UK is an embarrassment right now. The right has scored a major victory against the LGBT community, feminists, and the left in general. You've been played and the rest of the world is looking at you and thinking WTAF.
And, as you’re pulling in stories from the USA,
What happens there comes here, see also the hoo-ha about the Conservative party and it's current operating methods.
We all need to be careful that their culture war promotion doesn't overwhelm our society.
We all need to be careful that their culture war promotion doesn’t overwhelm our society.
I’d dearly love to think not, but am convinced that the internet trolls and ‘alt’ media grifters have only just gotten a taste for the dopamine kicks and fiscal rewards of sowing grief and misinfo at such a large scale for so little input. All in a day’s work for $ubs/revenue. I find it massively depressing.
Mrs P lost one close family member to it (sucked into the meme factory of sociopaths knows as 4***n ,all played a part in causing death by their own hand, with some pushing by ‘trolls’) and another (my family) has gone so far down the multiple conspiracy-theories rabbit-hole that all they now do is send mass emails to linking to American conspiracy sites.
I spent so long online researching how the above happened that it helped send me into pit of depression. This was around 10 years ago. I spent a year or so completely offline trying to rekindle some optimism.
It’s (the ‘pilling’ ‘game’) is so much worse now, You wouldn’t believe how many sociopaths are out there trolling every avenue of social media trying to hook new ‘players’. Not just troll farms, but utter sickos who assume nihilistic identities and play out their manipulative fantasies around the clock. Bad faith actors account for most of the utter piffle that passes for this ‘culture war’ but now it has a life of it’s own like Frankenstein’s monster.
It has now moved into mainstream media and public policy.
I wanted to make a documentary about all of this because the scale and influence of it blew my mind, and I was only scratching the surface. But I’ll be completely honest I don’t currently have the luxury of mental fortitude to take on such a task. I also have dependents.
Thanks for starting the thread and I apologise if my comment wasn’t in the spirit. I completely agree that everyone regardless of sexual orientation, identity etc has the right to a peaceful life free from discrimination. I do maintain my position that stifling debate is not necessarily the best way to help wider society understand.
I’m not under the LGBT+ umbrella but I have been gender nonconforming since I was a kid and I feel there are multiple ways to be a “man” or “woman”; however I have had my fair share of people throughout my life calling me a “bloke” in a derogatory way, or telling me that I am not feminine enough. That experience means that I am particularly interested in topics relating to sex vs gender. It doesn’t mean that I am uncomfortable with unisex toilets and changing rooms or sharing spaces with trans people.
The last thing I want to do is stifle debate. But debate is not easy if people with opposite positions just shout at each other from the far ends of the room - in the end everyone else just leaves the room.
And then they move on to another room and start all over again.
I want the debate as well. The problem is that I don't consider hypotheticals as a valid argument when it comes to this subject anymore.
I live in a country where I could walk into the tax office on Monday morning and change my gender. It is literally a form.
Norway is not the only country where this is the case. If these hypotheticals held any water at all then surely we would have some evidence of this from one of the many countries where people have been able to self identify for years.
https://lesbianandgaynews.com/
I combed this website that was posted earlier in the thread where the vast majority of stories are anti-trans rights (if all your news about the LGB community came from this site you would think there was no issue the community cared about more than stifling trans-rights). If there was anywhere to find a catalog of cases where men were invading women's only spaces it would be here. I couldn't find anything.
So far there has not been an epidemic of violations of women's rights in Norway, Ireland, Portugal, Belgium, or Argentina. If there has I haven't been able to find any evidence.
The transgender rights that people are 'debating' are already in place all over the world. You can't use hypothetical examples anymore to make your arguments.
If asking people for evidence to back up their views when the evidence is available is stifling debate then fine, I will stifle debate all day long.
Not everyone who wants to debate is polarised, but perhaps you can see that the “no debate” thing has the potential to polarise people. You can’t coerce people into understanding and caring, you have to have a respectful conversation. When women are now being called ‘cervix havers’ and ‘menstruaters’ in health awareness literature and the like, while men are still being called “men”, not ‘prostate havers’ you might understand why some women are getting irate.
That's a fair comment and some interesting points too. As I've said before, although I have a chip in this game I have a lot to learn and understand still. I was worried we were going down the same rabbithole as the NB thread, particularly when some new posters to the thread started the XX vs XY, sex vs gender thing.
I found the Vice article a very interesting read, today's Guardian covers similar ground. https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/jun/05/stonewall-trans-debate-toxic-gender-identity
I was aware of the TERF issue, but didn't really know if the threat of predatory trans-women was real or hypothetical. Interesting as you raise that countries advanced compared to us haven't seen the manifestation of that, on the other hand as we saw in the recent murder of Sarah Everard, the fear and discomfort caused by being 'followed' by a man should not be underestimated whether the threat is real or just that a man's taking the same route home as you. It's not easy.
As I said a page or so back, the LGB position looks like excluding a large number of trans women (women mainly, I perceive but may be wrong that cis-men feel less 'threatened' by trans men) when the real need is to address a few individuals. The Guardian says the same in it's closing paragraphs (quoting Peter Tatchell)
“Many women’s agencies have long accepted trans women without a problem. They vet each trans woman and accept them unless there is evidence that they are a threat. This scrutiny keeps women safe and has long worked well in many women’s services.
“You cannot base trans policies on the actions of a handful of bad apples. That would be grossly unfair to the vast majority of trans women who never have, and never will, pose a threat to other women.”
If there was anywhere to find a catalog of cases where men were invading women’s only spaces it would be here. I couldn’t find anything.
How about a twitter thread full of videos 'women' in dresses getting their cocks out and masturbating in public areas (e.g. in front of the full length mirrors that women use to check their outfits) whilst children's voices can be heard in the background.
Or 'women' on twitter/reddit uploading images and words describing getting a thrill out of trying on women's underwear in shop changing rooms, ejaculating on the the clothing and returning them to the racks.
I was not going to share this (as it is so utterly repugnant) but you keep slurring UK feminists as right wing bigots and loudly proclaiming that any concerns are hypothetical.
Yes, repugnant. I don't think anyone would disagree.
But reflective of all trans-women, or some?
Do all need to be excluded because of the actions of these sickos?
How about a twitter thread full of videos ‘women’ in dresses getting their cocks out and masturbating in public areas (e.g. in front of the full length mirrors that women use to check their outfits) whilst children’s voices can be heard in the background.
I'm surprised that this hasn't been reported in the press if it is widespread. The UK press is definitely not shy in coming forward when it comes to painting trans-rights in a bad light so I'm surprised it's not getting wall to wall coverage.
Or ‘women’ on twitter/reddit uploading images and words describing getting a thrill out of trying on women’s underwear in shop changing rooms, ejaculating on the the clothing and returning them to the racks.
Again, why isn't this being pounced on by The Daily Mail, at least?
I was not going to share this (as it is so utterly repugnant) but you keep slurring UK feminists as right wing bigots and loudly proclaiming that any concerns are hypothetical.
I'm saying they are hypothetical because there are now many countries where it is quick and easy to identify as whichever gender you like (not always non-binary but that doesn't seem to be your main concern). Did the disgusting events you are describing happen in any of these countries?
You claim that I'm slurring UK feminists. I'm not. I'm saying that evidence should now exist of what they are claiming given that so many countries allow self identification.
You are the only one who is trying to slur anyone here. You are trying to tie transgender people to people who are performing perverted acts when the vast majority of transgender people are just trying to live their lives.
From someone who identifies as a lesbian this is extremely concerning. I don't know what age you are or if you lived through periods where gay and lesbian rights were being pushed back against but you are using the exact same tactics that were used back then.
I'm curious to know what you think is going to happen once transgender people are marginalised out of society. Do you think things will carry on as before or do you think the right will then turn it's attention on the LGB community.
I think once they've dealt with Transgender people what comes next will make the Section 28 years feel like Brighton and Hove Pride.