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@theotherjonv Sorry, I meant to say this earlier, but I think you're doing a fantastic job supporting your child to the best of your abilities in what can only be described as an incredibly hostile environment.
I would like to move back to the UK but between Brexit (my children are born abroad and my girlfriend is Italian) and the state of the transgender 'debate' in the UK I really wouldn't feel comfortable raising my kids there.
I will support my kids no matter how they decide to identify and I'm thankful I'm somewhere where the state is not trying to make their lives more difficult. I can't imagine what you must be going through.
I only hope that the UK (and the left in particular) can realise just how much they are being played by the right at the moment and LGBT rights can go back to advancing instead of contracting.
All the best to you and your family.
When women are now being called ‘cervix havers’ and ‘menstruaters’ in health awareness literature and the like, while men are still being called “men”, not ‘prostate havers’ you might understand why some women are getting irate.
It's a time of cultural change and language is always going to take time to adjust. The debate is so toxic in the UK at the moment that I can see why people might be tripping over themselves trying not to offend anyone and falling flat on their faces while doing so.
In Norway it doesn't seem to be too much of an issue. The literature I read when my girlfriend was pregnant seemed to be fairly comfortable with the word 'woman' at least.
I can see why women would be annoyed, though. However, what I don't see is how you get from being annoyed to trying to say, 'man in in dress masturbating while children watch' and 'transgender' in the same sentence as many times as possible.
Reasonable debate means people have to be reasonable.
particularly when some new posters to the thread started the XX vs XY, sex vs gender thing.
I brought this up because on the previous page BruceWee was asking for definitions. Humans are a sexually dimorphic species and definitions of sex will involve chromosomes.
From this, in my view, cis women require protected areas not because of their gender expression, but because of this sexual dimorphism and the societal structures which have grown from it.
However, what I don’t see is how you get from being annoyed to trying to say, ‘man in in dress masturbating while children watch’ and ‘transgender’ in the same sentence as many times as possible.
I know you replying to someone else, but you attempted, again, to, misrepresent what I said, again.
I don't believe these men (in dresses and womens underwear) ****ers in public areas are transwomen. I believe they are men with fetishes (like old men dressed a female adult babies that the BBC photographed at it's Pride coverage a few years ago). These videos have been uploaded to porn sites, precisely because the are a violation of women's spaces.
The problem, that you repeatedly deny exists, is that that is a conflict of rights. The only reason that these men were able to do this is because of people like you and the agenda you are pushing, i.e. that it's complicated or women's feelings/safety matter least.
Women have long accepted transsexuals (a term many are happy to use so don't going banging on about that this term being 'transphobic') in a our spaces.
What we are not happy about is the 'anyone who identifies as a women', of whom a sizable number appear to be heterosexual men with a fetish - look up sissy porn if you fancy reaching for the eye-bleach after. If a male can tweet at women (including high profile women such as JK Rowling) words such 'choke on my girl cock' I would think anyone here could understand that these are not vulnerable people suffering from crippling gender dysphoria.
If LGBT rights (and I'm including T here) are at risk, it's because they've allowed these men to hitch a ride on the wagon.
Stonewall and their 'no debate' mantra have lead to the current state of affairs in the UK. The LGB Alliance only came about because attempts at opening up dialog failed. Interestingly, one of their new trustees is Robert Wintemute.
Robert Wintermute;
Professor of Human Rights Law at King’s College London, lawyer or expert in successful LGB court cases in Europe and Latin America, signatory of the 2007 Yogyakarta Principles (now critical of Principles 3 and 31)
I don’t believe these men (in dresses and womens underwear) **** in public areas are transwomen. I believe they are men with fetishes (like old men dressed a female adult babies that the BBC photographed at it’s Pride coverage a few years ago). These videos have been uploaded to porn sites, precisely because the are a violation of women’s spaces.
Why, then, are you linking this deviant behaviour with trans rights? There are some sections of the LGBT+ community that do themselves no favours with this approach.
As Bruce says above if it were a major problem there would be countless media hits when googling, this is the type of subject that local papers here (UK) would get in a froth about on lots of different levels.
As Bruce says above if it were a major problem there would be countless media hits when googling, this is the type of subject that local papers here (UK) would get in a froth about on lots of different levels.
I'm just wondering how much of a problem it has to be before you think it's worth worrying about.
Bruce posted a link to an incident (assault?) of a gender non-conforming women in a women's toilets. Was this indicative of a real problem (and one caused by the mean women no less)? Strange this doesn't go both ways. It's always:
that never happens
[examples provided]
it's only a few cases
[more examples provided]
well, the women can then report it to the authorities
If you all want claim that porn-addled men are part of the 'LGBT community' than go for it. There are many, many ordinary people (gays, lesbians, bisexuals, transsexuals/transgender) that are trying to distance themselves.
If you all want claim that porn-addled men are part of the ‘LGBT community’ than go for it
It's not a case of 'Then go for it' implying thats a made up notion. Many abusers identify themselves,and are gay. Thats a fact. But it's the actions of an individual, not a whole.
Now I'm not identifying every gay man or woman as being abusive, just stating the fact of how they label themselves. So try not to disparage or put down someone stating such. Again it is the individual,not the whole that are to blame.
Bruce posted a link to an incident (assault?) of a gender non-conforming women in a women’s toilets.
This one?
In this case it was a cisgender woman who was assaulted for not looking female enough.
To me, this is the worrying part about 'protecting' women's spaces. The men who want to 'protect' you are not your friends.
Once it's been established that female only spaces are for cisgender women only then it's going to be necessary to police this somehow. There will be no shortage of chivalrous men desperate to protect 'real' women.
The problem then is that there will be a tremendous pressure on all women to conform to a certain standard of femininity in order to be able to enter women's spaces without harassment.
If you take nothing else away from what I am saying please take this. The men who claim to want to protect you also want you to conform to their own definition of femininity. They are not your friends.
I don’t believe these men (in dresses and womens underwear) **** in public areas are transwomen. I believe they are men with fetishes
I'm actually really happy to hear you saying that. I was getting a bit worried that you subscribed to the proper old-school TERF thoughts on transgender people (that trans men are simply switching sides because they want to be in the ruling class while trans women only do so because they have a sexual fetish).
Thankfully these views aren't common even among feminists who are Trans Exclusionary but I think the effect this definition has on the debate can still be felt.
I think we all have to remember just how ****ed up the UK is in terms of it's sexual and gender education. I'm only 40 which isn't that old but I was still educated entirely in the Section 28 era.
In addition, mental health services are woeful. The stigma around mental health issues is still very real.
When you combine sexual and gender repression with untreated mental health issue it's a recipe for deviant behavior.
It's worth remembering that the invasion of women's privacy isn't limited to women's only spaces. Up-skirting occurs in public spaces. Men will sit down next to women on buses and start watching violent pornography on their phones.
Thankfully the next generation seem to be far more open about exploring their sexuality, their gender identity, and coming forward about their mental health issues.
I think that forcing transgender people back into the closet is not going to help the issue of women being assaulted and having their privacy invaded. If anything I think it's going to make it worse.
It’s worth remembering that the invasion of women’s privacy isn’t limited to women’s only spaces. Up-skirting occurs in public spaces. Men will sit down next to women on buses and start watching violent pornography on their phones
And I'm glad you recognise this. Sadly, is it still largely ignored/trivialised; statistically, some members on here WILL have friends who think this is a laugh. Similar also happens in gym, with men covertly filming women.
At least we are finally getting specific offences put into law to (try) and stop some of that horrific behaviour. I’d welcome similar legal moves to help deal with the kind of individuals you have highlighted. We need to deal with them and their actions specifically, in a targeted way.
And I’m glad you recognise this.
In this spirit that this thread was started with, I think it's really important to remember that our goal is the same. We want everyone to be able to live their lives identifying however they are most comfortable and free from harassment and violence of any kind.
I do consider you to be on my side and I really hope you think of me the same way.
I entirely accept that I've been debating this in the wrong way a lot of the time. My only defense is that I genuinely wasn't aware of what is happening in the UK at the moment and I was basing all my arguments from the way things are here in Norway.
I'll try to be a lot more accepting of other perspectives from now on.
Strange this doesn’t go both ways. It’s always:
that never happens
[examples provided]
No, you provided one example and some mention of social media reportage. I prefer my news to be factual not something from social media which has been shown to be "fake news" in the main.
Admittedly one example is one too many but it's not symptomatic of a huge issue.
My daughter is a member of the LGBT community and has no time for TERFs going so far as to forswear Rowling when she jumped the shark.
In the main our trans citizens want to live their lives quietly with no fuss nor embarrassment like the rest of us do.
In every society there will be people seen as dont fit in and will be bullied for whatever reason,LGBTQ, hit the right spots with certain people, either through brainwashing by religious leaders,parents or workplaces, things are gradually chanching , after thatcher and section 28, and the abolition of gay sex being illegal between consenting adults along with the age limit being reduced to what ever it is now.
Lets all live our live, be happy and freindly and accept people, dont be affraid of what they do for sexual pleasure or how they want to live their lives, cha and learn from them.
A few years ago went to a pride march as a spectator, lots of transexuals and drag queens there a gang of workmen turned up, looking amazed, then all of a sudden started shouting and clapping as a fellow workmate passed in drag, who was transitioning from male to female, and they where really suportive of her in their comments as she passed.She really looked amazed at their support, as did the crowd.