[Closed] It may have hit the fan in Ukraine - passenger jet shot down

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2014/jul/18/mh17-recording-russian-colonel-rebels-discuss-disaster-video ]Recording of conversation (from Guardian piece liked above)[/url]

I find it difficult to believe they couldn't or didn't positively identify the target before firing.

Basically this.
Even a pissed up Russian conscript will have had basic training in using the weapon and if you have to point it at the object in question to fire it, you'll have identified what that object is.
Wouldn't you?

Listening to Samantha Power (U.S. Ambassador to UN) address the UN right now. She's not exactly holding back - her finger is firmly pointing at Putin.

Hilary Clinton wasn't exactly holding back either- way to go ladies 😉

this is where the designers of the system allow for the very real possibility of their high tech weapons falling into enemy hands...ISIS won't be able to successfully fire US high-tech weapons, just the same as a pro-Russian rebel cannot fire a BUK missile without being allowed to do so by Russia.

If you were head of procurment, wouldn't you consider it to constitute a major design flaw if someone left a back door open in your system that a smart enough enemy nation could utilise to neutralise your entire air defences at the flick of a switch?

Oh my giddy aunt! There are some crazy conspiracies going round about this one.
For example:
"This is part of the CIA's covert operations meant to "turn the world against Russia"
"Is it really a coincidence that a controversial airliner shot down in a conflicted air zone right on the same day as Israel begins foot on the ground operation in Gaza ?"

Etc..

People eh? 🙄

Even if it was mistaken identity and they thought they were shooting down a ukrainian military plane, it's still an act of terrorism.

(There is a special place in hell for any moron that says "one man's terrorist".

Any condemnation from the UK government yet? Or are Dave and George taking a moment to quietly reflect, once again, on the billions of dollars in [s]dodgy Russian cash[/s] welcome overseas investment presently sloshing about [s]being laundered[/s] in our nations glorious [s]ask-no-questions[/s] and principled financial institutions?

"Is it really a coincidence that a controversial airliner shot down in a conflicted air zone right on the same day as Israel begins foot on the ground operation in Gaza ?"

No it's not, but the causality is the other way around from what you suggest. The Israelis would doubtless have invaded anyway at some point - a snarling dog will eventually bite - but the airliner provides a convenient impetus to start now.

There is a special place in hell for any moron that says "one man's terrorist".

Then help us out by providing a logical definition of the word "terrorist" which doesn't simply amount to 'person we don't like'.

trail_rat - Member

Its on the beebs site rich. Kiev requested changws to the approved flight plan on entry to their airspace.

And if for no other reason but that alone, the conspiracy theory is nonsense.

There is zero chance that Kiev deliberately diverted the plane so that it would be shot down. There would be no way that they could cover their tracks, the next day the BBC would be reporting it.

The alternatives in order of likelihood are imo : it was shot down by the rebels with or without Russian help because the thought it was a Kiev military plane, it was shot down by the Russians because they thought was a Kiev military plane, it was shot down by Kiev because they thought it was a Russian military plane, in all the cases it was clearly a mistake, and finally the least likely, no one shot it down and it was possible a terrorist bomb that happened to very coincidentally explode when it was over disputed territory. The last suggestion is obviously very unlikely but imo the fact that Malaysia Airlines have recently lost another plane in extremely suspicious circumstances adds a tiny bit of credence to it.

The was/is no conspiracy by any government.

Any condemnation from the UK government yet?

Who do you want them to condemn - person's unknown ? Cameron has already done that by saying that those responsible "must be brought to account".

Ernie, you make some sensible points there. You know the rules though, stop that.

you are right ernie but where the conspiracy starts is when they realised what they had done and they tried to cover it up.
Like you I do not for a second I do not think they meant to do this but the lack of admission is poor and the attempting to blame someone innocent even worse.

Junkyard - lazarus

The ones that still maintain some form of brain energy.

so you are not one then

You know where I stand on all issues related to zombie maggots. [b][u]We are all[/u][/b] zombie maggots with the exception that we don't have BUK to mess with except messing with those brainwaves on STW forum. Yes, including you so just make sure your brain energy is 100%, which can be considered difficult to achieve considering that we are already born into this world as zombie maggots.

No, I don't blame Dear Leader Putih at all. I doubt you can expect him to micro manage all his rogue zombie maggot commanders. Yes, he might have given the green light to support the militia but then the decision to pull the triggers are made by some half-wits zombie maggots with some brain energy on the ground.

The main issue here is those half-wits zombie maggots have just wiped the face of Dear Leader Putih on their backsides by making a fool out of his cool dude image (now face slightly brown - not cool man, not cool). I mean how can a cool dude like Dear Leader Putih let half-wits take charge of ground commands? If he is really a cool dude then none of this would happen because they would apply common sense.

So Dear Leader Putih you should cull them now especially the half-wits who pulled the triggers and the plane spotter(s) on the ground before they make you into a circus clown.

In the history of all Dear Leaders none would let half-wits zombie maggots make a fool out of Dear Leaders. Fact!

Do the right thing and cull them Dear Leader style, otherwise it is not cool man, not cool for shooting women, children, babies and unarmed civilians plane out of the sky.

Check the Youtube clip to identify the half-wit zombie maggot that made the comment that the passenger airline carried spies, this particular half-wit zombie maggot should be the first to be culled. He has the least brain energy. Waste of space.

🙄

Well said chewkw.

Thu ·

WE HAVE OUR FALSE FLAG EVENT!

MANY OF US KNEW SOMETHING LIKE THIS WAS GOING TO HAPPEN. IN SEPTEMBER LAST YEAR I PREDICTED THE KITCHEN SINK WOULD BE THROWN AT PUTIN WHEN HE STOOD UP TO THE US FLEET & EFFECTIVELY SAVED SYRIA FROM THE SAME FATE IRAQ & LIBYA SUFFERED! THE PLAN TO DESTROY ALL OF ISRAEL'S ENEMIES MAY HAVE BEEN PUT ON HOLD BUT LOOK WHAT'S HAPPENED SINCE?

LET'S NOT FORGET THIS HAS COME AT A CONVENIENT TIME FOR THE ISRAELIS. THEY WANT TO WIPE THE PALESTINIANS OUT - PLAIN & SIMPLE! IF THE WORLD'S ATTENTION IS FOCUSED ELSEWHERE ALL THE BETTER TO CRACK ON WITH GENOCIDE! THE THING IS FOR ME THERE'S A GLARING COMMON DENOMINATOR WITH ALL THAT'S GOING ON - WE HAVE NETANYAHU THE ULTIMATE LUNATIC; THE NEW MAN IN CONTROL IN UKRAINE POROSHENKO IS A ZIONIST TOO & OF COURSE THE LIES WE'RE BEING TOLD IS BY THE MSM WHICH IS ZIONIST CONTROLLED!

AND WHAT OF THIS SCUMBAG POROSHENKO WHO ILLEGALLY SEIZED POWER IN UKRAINE & IN NO TIME SHOWED HE'S EVERY BIT AS RUTHLESS AS NETANYAHU KILLING INNOCENT CIVILIANS LEFT, RIGHT & CENTER? HE SAYS THE RUSSIANS DID IT & WE NOW HAVE TO TAKE THIS PIECE OF SHIT'S WORD FOR IT? DON'T THESE IDIOTS IN THE BBC, ITV & CHANNEL 4 NEWS KNOW THE LIES THEY'RE TELLING US COULD RESULT IN AN ICBM WIPING OUT LONDON OUT? THIS CANNOT BE HAPPENING.

YET WITHOUT ANY INVESTIGATION THE MSM IS ALREADY POINTING AN ACCUSING FINGER AT RUSSIA BY FLAT OUT SAYING THEY MAY HAVE BEEN RESPONSIBLE FOR DOWNING THIS MALAYSIAN PASSENGER PLANE! WHAT EARTHLY REASON WOULD RUSSIA HAVE TO DO THIS ESPECIALLY WHEN PUTIN KNOWS THE WEST IS TRYING TO GOAD HIM INTO A FIGHT?

I'M IN NO DOUBT - THE ZIONISTS ARE THE MOST EVIL, DELUDED MANIACS! THEY ARE A CANCER ON MANKIND BUT NOW, LARGELY THANKS TO THE INTERNET, THEY REALIZE THEY'RE LOSING THEIR GRIP. THEY ALSO KNOW THAT IF THIS HAPPENS, THE WORLD WILL QUICKLY DISCOVER THE GHASTLY TRUTH THAT THEY ARE THE REAL TERRORISTS! SO......... THEY WILL DO EVERYTHING & ANYTHING TO MAINTAIN THEIR STRANGLEHOLD......... EVEN BY ENCOURAGING WW III!

is this your attempt to look more detached from reality than Chewkw?

shit just got real trailhound

Is this a competition to post bollocks ?

At least chewkw treats his as an art form with an interesting use of words, not a raging rant with no redeemable qualities.

trailhound - Member

YET WITHOUT ANY INVESTIGATION THE MSM IS ALREADY POINTING AN ACCUSING FINGER AT RUSSIA BY FLAT OUT SAYING THEY MAY HAVE BEEN RESPONSIBLE FOR DOWNING THIS MALAYSIAN PASSENGER PLANE! WHAT EARTHLY REASON WOULD RUSSIA HAVE TO DO THIS ESPECIALLY WHEN PUTIN KNOWS THE WEST IS TRYING TO GOAD HIM INTO A FIGHT?

FFS! Not Dear Leader Putih but rather his half-wit (even worst than normal zombie) zombie maggots commanders that are to blame. Yes, everyone points fingers at Dear Leader Putih but no way can he be the one giving the order to shoot civilian plane(s). Even past Dear Leaders would not give such an order. 🙄

edit: FFS! What's with all the shouting ... you need to breath if you shout like that. Breathhhhh ... in .... out ... in ... out.

Still, I bet those 298 people will rest easy knowing they've given conspiracy bellends something fresh to be bellends about.

Junkyard - every Friday night is spent detached from reality for me! Do you know EXACTLY what's going on re Russia/Ukraine/Israel/Palestine, of course you don't, nor do any of us on here it's all just our own opinions based on our political preferences, religion, upbringing, newspaper we read etc. and what we choose to believe. You could spend all night presenting "facts" to support any theory you wanted to. Fact is none of us actually know what the real deal is but as Kimbers says - the shit is getting real!

chewkw, what is it you find so compelling about Putin? His masculinity, his ripped physique? The man is a monumental arsehole of the highest order. He's a control freak. Don't make excuses for him.

says - shit is getting real!

How so?

Not me shouting, copied someone else's post just to stir it up a bit, I have no idea who's doing what, just feel bad so many innocent people are drawn into what are little more than power games 🙁

Do you know EXACTLY what's going on re Russia/Ukraine/Israel/Palestine, of course you don't, nor do any of us on here it's all just our own opinions based on our political preferences, religion, upbringing, newspaper we read etc. and what we choose to believe.

I don't claim to know everything but I am 100% certain that the Queen isn't a lizard (despite being called Lizzie) and there isn't a global Zionist conspiracy. I base these beliefs on a thing called "commonsense", you ought to try it.

.

copied someone else's post just to stir it up a bit

It's always a good idea to "stir it up a bit" when there's been a tragic event. Specially if you can blame it all on a "global Zionist conspiracy" :rolls eyes:

slowoldman - Member
chewkw, what is it you find so compelling about Putin?

As a counter balance to other superpowers. i.e. Power should not reside on one side only.

In fact power should be dispersed all over all with everyone having the ability to nuke each other to kingdom come.

His masculinity, his ripped physique?

I am not attracted to same gender I am afraid but he does know karate or judo and I would like to ask him if he like drinking warm bitter. Yes, a pint of warm bitter.

The man is a monumental arsehole of the highest order. He's a control freak. Don't make excuses for him.

Ya, that's a good thing to be honest because I rather he controls his people like our young Dear Leader at North Korean, then having the burden on the entire world to feed them. Bear in mind, we already have some zombie maggots with zombie ideologies running wild in middle east and frankly I don't need the extra burden.

For example, when is North Korea a nuisance to the world? When is Russia a problem to the world apart from Russia trying to recreate CCCP again and to refuse the so called Demo[b][u]n[/u][/b]cracy? Who are we to say that they are wrong? Let their own people decide ...

On the other hand if all adopt Demoncracy then all you have created is an even bigger problem with one single ideology that no one dares to counter. I don't believe in this.

But shooting down unarmed civilian is not cool man, not cool ... those half-wits that pulled the trigger Must be punished medieval Russian style.

🙄

You could spend all night presenting "facts" to support any theory you wanted to

I would like to ask him if he like drinking warm bitter.

Junkyard - lazarus
I would like to ask him if he like drinking warm bitter.

If this is not a euphemism he does not drink

No euphemism there. I really like to see his comment on drinking traditional British warm bitter/ale whatever. I want to see his comments. Could be funny put it this way - good or bad. I have offered some of my friends from other part of the world a pint of warm bitter in the past and the expression on their face can be rather funny.

I mean it would be wrong to disrespect another culture/custom is it not? A powerful person like him cannot even compromise on drinking a pint with me? So if I happen to invite him for a pint of warm bitter in GeordieLand that is what I intend to do. I mean if I visit Russia I would not dare to offend him by not drinking vodka if he offers me even if I only consume alcohol once in every few months in GeordieLand.

In fact I would like to invite all the leaders/Dear Leaders of the world for a pint just to see what they say. Nothing I would like to change them and they should be as they are. 😀

Ernie has it; this is simply a devastating and shocking consequence of the confusion of war and allowing a bunch of steroid-crazed idiots to get control of sophisticated weapons. Substitute uranium for missile and you have the apocalypse that everybody has been dreading since the 1950s.

Putin is indeed a grade one areshole but he's the strong leader reincarnation of Stalin, Gadaffi, Saddam, whoever you like. How many republics and ethnic groups would now be clamouring for independence if he wasn't the president?

For example, when is North Korea a nuisance to the world?

You mean, other than when the kidnap Japanese and South Korean nationals from their home soil? Or maybe when they torpedo South Korean warships in territorial waters? Or possibly when constructing nuclear weapons and letting them off underground? Or maybe when building rockets that could put one of those warheads onto other people?

And that is apart from the Kims being completely bonkers and starving their own population to keep them cowed and suppressed.

How many republics and ethnic groups would now be clamouring for independence if he wasn't the president?

I know that some people like to portray Putin as some sort of hated and mad dictator which, if only they could, the Russian people would like to rid themselves of, but the stark reality is that Putin has personal approval ratings which western leaders can only fantasize about.

This isn't a recent phenomenon either, Putin's personal approval ratings have consistently been far higher than any other major world leader.

And no, this isn't based on dodgy Russian state polls, it's based on reliable independent polls which the western media recognizes as such.

[url= http://time.com/3005439/putin-approval-ratings/ ]Putin’s Approval Rating Reaches Record High in Russia[/url]

[url= http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-06-26/why-putin-is-in-trouble-with-86-approval.html ]Why Putin Is in Trouble With 86% Approval[/url]

[url= http://www.forbes.com/sites/markadomanis/2014/06/12/vladimir-putins-approval-rating-is-still-higher-than-its-been-in-a-long-time/ ]Vladimir Putin's Approval Rating Is Still Higher Than It's Been In A Long Time[/url]

Can anyone imagine Obama, Cameron, or Hollande, enjoying approval ratings over 80% ?

Russian elections might be corrupt but that goes back to Boris Yeltsin, the corrupt alcoholic which the West approved of so much. Unlike Yeltsin Putin doesn't actually need to fix election results.

Putin does indeed preside over a repressive administration, there's no doubt about that, but it's almost certainly less corrupt than Yeltsin's was, or the Ukraine is today. And much of the repressive nature of his administration meets with public approval, in fact when it comes to gay rights opinion polls show that the Russian public is more homophobic than the government.

Some people need to accept that many Russian are unimpressed by the west, and hard as it might be for them to understand many ethic Russians in Ukraine don't want to be part of the EU and NATO, they feel closer ties with Putin's Russia with which they have cultural links and which provides them businesses opportunities and livelihoods, unbelievable eh ?

Haven't read all of this thread but while the conspiracy theories abound don't lose sight of the fact that on top of the huge personal tragedy for all those involved, it now looks like up to 100 of the victims were delegates heading for a huge AIDS conference in Australia.

"This will have ramifications globally because whenever you lose a leader in any field, it has an impact. That knowledge is irreplaceable.

We’ve lost global leaders and also some bright young people who were coming through. It’s a gut-wrenching loss."

The death of Joep Lange, a leading researcher into anti HIV drugs, has been extensively reported. The victims will also include activists, administrators and reporters who influence governments to change policies and improve research into and treatment of all sorts of potentially horrendous epidemics.

In a world were we are faced with increasing concerns about infection and drug resistance, this has ramifications for all of us, conspiracy theorists, zombie maggots, humans of all species.

Forgive the goodwin but Hitler also won elections,
You can be a baddy and still be popular with your electorate.
Slobodan Miloševi? committed genocide and won elections on a number of occasions.
There are other examples if you really want them.
Being popular does not mean you are not a baddy willing to cover up ethnic russians , you arm, shooting down a civilian plane whilst you try to annex yet more of the country of Ukraine.
Why the difference here between your attitude on Israel and Russia? I do not see that much difference tbh in tactics being used.
He is popular no one can deny it
Israel policies are popular with [many] Israelis but they are equally morally wrong.

The intellectual firepower in this thread has sent it [i]waaaay[/i] over my head.

No pun intended.

I've had a think.

Has anyone considered it could be the drug companies?

The flight was apparently only at 300m, making it an easy target (well, as easy as something flying at 500mph can be).

Onboard were 100 AIDS researchers.

Is it beyond the realms of possibility that a cure for AIDS is just around the corner, thus meaning that drug companies will lose millions they currently make on selling 'make comfortable' drugs?

Is this suitably far-fetched?

It's extremely sad that 100 aids experts are dead. Are the other dead less sad? I think not. RIP all who died

I think this may be a new low in STW threads. Some of you should be ashamed.

that is all...

Apologies for interrupting the lunatic conspiracies with some facts but here is a link to official page from Ukraine's MOD denying separatists have their hands on SAM launchers (in Ukrainian, use Google to translate)

http://www.mil.gov.ua/news/2014/06/30/teroristi-ne-zahoplyuvali-bojovu-tehniku-chastin-protipovitryanoi-oboroni-zbrojnih-sil-ukraini-v-doneczku/

If true and not an attempt at face-saving this leaves only two potential actors - Russia (either from their territory of by supplying rebels) and Ukraine.

Sorry for the interruptions, please disregard these facts if you believe in conspiracies and carry on.

Given they have shot down planes and helicopters no one can seriously doubt the [ rebles/ethnic russians/whatever we are calling them] have the capability to do it.

Junkyard - we're talking specific SAM launchers here, the self-propelling kind.

The flight was apparently only at 300m

The missiles fired from a BUK have semi-active homing, ie, the launcher sends out radar, it bounces off the plane and the missile homes onto it. If the missile was fired at a low level aircraft (eg, helicopter) and missed, it would keep looking for a target to home onto. I don't know if it has any kind of range limiter, but hitting a civilian plane that happens to be lined up with a missed target is the kind of thing I'd expect when a missile launcher is operated by people who aren't thoroughly trained in using it.

Onboard were 100 AIDS researchers.

Is it beyond the realms of possibility that a cure for AIDS is just around the corner, thus meaning that drug companies will lose millions they currently make on selling 'make comfortable' drugs?

Is this suitably far-fetched?

tpbiker - Member
I think this may be a new low in STW threads. Some of you should be ashamed.

that is all...

You're not joking. First non-bike thread I've read in nearly three months. I suppose I had the naïve hope that things on here might have changed whilst I'd been on holiday. Obviously not 😕

Is it beyond the realms of possibility that a cure for AIDS is just around the corner, thus meaning that drug companies will lose millions they currently make on selling 'make comfortable' drugs?

Yes, because those researchers will have sent the transcripts of their talks ahead of them, and all their notes will be stored electronically so their work could be reproduced easily. And all the pharmas would know this. That's quite apart from it being a stupid scenario, many pharmas are also looking for a cure. What the hell is a "comfortable" drug?

I would imagine a B-52 or Sentinel would look pretty similar

What would a B-52 be doing over the Ukraine let alone at 32k feet, the spams planning to carpet bomb or nuke Donetsk?

Junkyard - lazarus

Forgive the goodwin but Hitler also won elections,
You can be a baddy and still be popular with your electorate.

Actually Hitler didn't win elections, at least not until he had imprisoned the opposition, and there isn't any evidence that his personal approval ratings were to the level of Putin's.

But I get your point. Unfortunately you don't get mine.

When I said :

"[i]some people like to portray Putin as some sort of hated and mad dictator which, if only they could, the Russian people would like to rid themselves of[/i]"

I was countering the claim that Putin is deeply unpopular the Russian people. He isn't, he is far and away more popular with his people than any equivalent western leader. Russians like living under his presidency. That is not however to pass moral judgement on him, it just recognizes a simple fact.

In the same way that I think the Chinese government represents a corrupt self-serving and brutal criminal elite, but I am perfectly prepared to accept that it enjoys widespread support among the Chinese people. I have little doubt that the majority of Chinese are more supportive of their government than Brits are of theirs.

It is perfectly reasonable to assume that many ethnic Russians, wherever they live, prefer Putin's Russia to the EU. Perhaps someone ought to ask them ? But then of course the EU doesn't like to operate like that unless it can be sure of the outcome.

[i]Western bourgeois democracy[/i]......it's such a good idea when people vote correctly, eh ?

Yes, because those researchers will have sent the transcripts of their talks ahead of them,

I suspect most would have been frantically writing their talks as disaster struck...

and all their notes will be stored electronically so their work could be reproduced easily.

Their current work, yes. Their future work, clearly not. It is undoubtedly a big loss for the field of AIDS research, on top of the immediate human tragedy.

[quote=Greybeard ]The missiles fired from a BUK have semi-active homing, ie, the launcher sends out radar, it bounces off the plane and the missile homes onto it. If the missile was fired at a low level aircraft (eg, helicopter) and missed, it would keep looking for a target to home onto. I don't know if it has any kind of range limiter, but hitting a civilian plane that happens to be lined up with a missed target is the kind of thing I'd expect when a missile launcher is operated by people who aren't thoroughly trained in using it.

Do you have knowledge of BUK? Because that seems an extraordinarily dangerous way for such a missile system to work - surely it is tergeted before it is fired and doesn't go looking randomly for any other flying target if it loses contact with the first one?

Their current work, yes. Their future work, clearly not. It is undoubtedly a big loss for the field of AIDS research, on top of the immediate human tragedy.

Indeed, the future of this work is going to be in someone's head, not in their briefcase. There were people who had been thinking about treatment and cure for as long as aids has had a name. The eureka moment is going to happen in a head like that.

[quote=zokes ]

Yes, because those researchers will have sent the transcripts of their talks ahead of them,

Presenting at a conference? Maybe it's different for medical research, but all the conferences I've presented at papers had to be submitted in advance.

Yes, and it's also total bollocks. Whoever makes a drug that cures or inoculates against AIDS will make a ton of money. Sickness is bad for capitalism.

My post was tongue firmly in cheek, in response to some of the other rubbish spouted above.

Calm down dear. 😉

What the hell is a "comfortable" drug?

A drug that controls the symptoms, but doesn't provide a cure. Essentially it lengthens life, as long as you continue taking it. A drug that pharma companies love as there's a consistent - and almost unending - demand, unless the disease is cured.

There's probably a better description, but I couldn't think of one while writing the post.

Presenting at a conference? Maybe it's different for medical research, but all the conferences I've presented at papers had to be submitted in advance.

Dunno as I'm in environmental, rather than medical research. But as every big conference has both mandated talks be submitted in advance, but also allowed updated versions to be uploaded the day before, it wouldn't surprise me if the laptops were open.... I am talking about the ppt here though, rather than the paper for the proceedings though, which i guess would be where the real science is (if it's not already out in a proper journal)

Where does that come from? Everything I've seen says 10,000m.

That's my fault. I glanced a headline but didn't read the text.

This isn't the actual article (which was on the BBC) but you get the drift: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/17/malaysia-airlines-mh17-flying-just-above-restricted-airspace

Unfortunately you don't get mine.

Western bourgeois democracy......it's such a good idea when people vote correctly, eh ?

My post was tongue firmly in cheek

Pimp, the pharma conspiracy theory is rubbish. The drug industry is not monolithic, it's hundreds of companies competing against each other to find cures for illness. If one company has a stabilising drug, then another produces an actual cure, then the first drug sales will plummet.
Drug discovery programmes are rarely individuals anyway - they are teams working together, sharing ideas. Those that remained in Europe will be able to continue the same work.

willard - Member
And that is apart from the Kims being completely bonkers and starving their own population to keep them cowed and suppressed.

I rather he contains his own people as he wish. Put it in another way if a person wants to be contained then nothing can help him/her. In this case his population can either fight or die or live in containment but some will perish while in containment. If more people spill out from that country then more resources are needed to be used to feed them. His population is slowly depleting if they continue to starve. Yes, I don't like the nuclear testing underground but their fight with their neighbours are merely a small matter in the grand scheme of the world.

[b]I don't support any of the world leaders or Dear Leaders I only see them as they are ...[/b]

What really pisses me off now are those half-wit zombie maggots with their half-wits ZM commanders that down MH17 because they are the ones responsible for making the decisions and pulling the triggers.

From now on that region will become a proxy war and Dear Leader Putih just opened a new front because of his incompetent half-wits ZM commanders. I mean apart from the trouble in Ukraine they are already fighting some bearded fanatics and if they are that good why can't they wipe them out? They may kill one or two of the bearded leaders but that is peanuts by comparison to new front.

Argue as much as they like but they are adding more trouble without solving ...

😡

Pimp, the pharma conspiracy theory is rubbish. The drug industry ......

If the conspiracy theory that the drug industry organized the shooting down of a civilian airline is rubbish then why are you giving it any sort of credence by presenting a counterargument ?

The suggestion that drug companies organized the destruction of a civilian airline and the deaths of all of those on-board is too preposterous to warrant any sort of debate.

Stupid conspiracy theories survive because people allow themselves to be draw into treating them as if they have an ounce of creditability. The more you give conspiracy theories any sort of credibility the more they will appear.

Cull those that are involved in pulling the BUK trigger then you can argue the conspiracy theories as much as you like. 🙄

I noticed a quote from Putin that seems to show he's not quite understood the implications of what he's said:
“The state over who's territory this occurred bears responsibility”
Hmmm, doesn't the territory over which this occurred call itself an independent entity, owing allegiance to the Russian Republic?
An entity that says it's completely independent from the Ukrainian state?
An entity that gets it's support and weapons directly from Russia?
In which case, according to Putin, Ukraine could not have been responsible; he can't have it both ways.

CountZero - Member

I noticed a quote from Putin that seems to show he's not quite understood the implications of what he's said:
“The state over who's territory this occurred bears responsibility”

You are not supposed to understand them actually they are not to suppose to understand themselves either.

Try not to make sense of what they say coz it's pointless they know exactly well their militia shot down MH17.

Indeed, the future of this work is going to be in someone's head, not in their briefcase. There were people who had been thinking about treatment and cure for as long as aids has had a name. The eureka moment is going to happen in a head like that.

This.

I don't think the drugs Industry theory has any legs, some of our local security 'experts' were thinking more likely CIA black Ops to put pressure on Putin, they are almost certainly active over there.

rossatease - Member
I don't think the drugs Industry theory has any legs, some of our local security 'experts' were thinking more likely CIA black Ops to put pressure on Putin, they are almost certainly active over there.

Look for the telephone transcripts of calls between...

The fake telephone transcripts are obviously all part of the conspiracy.

I don't think you fully understand how conspiracy theories work.

Apparently there is still no pharmaceutical cure for the Edinburgh Defence nor its newest strain, the Isle of Wight Retrojustification.

Now you're just making things up.

🙄

Pimp, the pharma conspiracy theory is rubbish.

Yes, it is. I made it up to emphasise the daft and hypothetical nature of theories being pedalled by others.

The suggestion that drug companies organized the destruction of a civilian airline and the deaths of all of those on-board is too preposterous to warrant any sort of debate.

I know, which is exactly why I said it, although judging by the reaction it worryingly appears to have merit.

Pass me my tinfoil hat would you?

Seems reasonably clear cut - but cue the geopolitical games in terms of who will be ultimately made responsible. In the meantime, more gawpish and intrusive media coverage. Sad.

Desperate event. RIP all those involved - may your families be given and achieve some peace.

This is an awful tragedy, and along with many other on hear my thoughts go out to all those affected. Beyond comprehension how something like this can happen.

What I find staggering is how a bunch of pro Russian militia pr!cks can be policing the area and restricting access. If I was the PM, I'd send in special forces to take the muppets out so that the aviation authorities could gain the proper access.

Be interesting to see what Putin's response to that would be. I think the West need to severe all ties with Russia. And as to France supplying military helicopters to them ...

I don't think you fully understand how conspiracy theories work.

The missiles fired from a BUK have semi-active homing, ie, the launcher sends out radar, it bounces off the plane and the missile homes onto it. If the missile was fired at a low level aircraft (eg, helicopter) and missed, it would keep looking for a target to home onto. I don't know if it has any kind of range limiter, but hitting a civilian plane that happens to be lined up with a missed target is the kind of thing I'd expect when a missile launcher is operated by people who aren't thoroughly trained in using it.

Wrong, semi-actives don't work like that. Only fire and forget active missiles look for the target, semi actives will only hit the target that the radar is locked on to. I know this because of air cadets and flying too many simulators as a teen.

Semi-actives have to have the target painted by the radar, when a continuous as opposed to a doppler beam is focussed onto the target. The missile only looks for the returns from that focussed lock.

Irrespective of the causes of this incident, the rebels are truly showing what shits they are in how they're handling the aftermath.

Irrespective of the causes of this incident, the rebels are truly showing what shits they are in how they're handling the aftermath.

A colleague from a european office and his young family were on the plane, kind of brought it home a bit, can't imagine how unbearable it must be.

I guess its easy to point a finger at eastern ukranians converting them from ukranians into russians.

Guess same should be done to scotish. Then bomb the shait out of them for good measure and sell their land to multinationals for resources.

Granted , Ukraine spectacle didn't go to plan West wanted so now it looks world is not unipolar any more.

Russia, China, India, Iran, South America's messing around and all those BRICS and shait happening around.

It looks very dark times ahead indeed, I'm worried my fuel bills will sky rocket and hope to afford to buy some food if any monies were left to spend.

I say leave alone those pesky Ukranians to sort themselves out. Crimea s gone, try to unite whatever has left.

Back to crash itself we have:

Photos and video released of the BUK launcher allegedly in the area the missile was fired from.

Photos and video of what could be the BUK launcher on the back of a low loader being hastily moved back to Russia.

Blocking of anyone trying to get to the wreckage and bodies.

Black boxes removed and location unknown.

Looting of wreckage.

Bodies being left, some being moved to a railway carriage.

Some wreckage being moved, ruining any investigation.

UN voting today on what to do.

There should be a system already in place for a plane crash or similar even in a war zone or disaster zone. The UN should already be there and have the site secured and an investigation underway, not only as it involves an incident involving victims from UN members over a UN country that is not able to deal with it themselves due to war but as the people responsible are also members of the UN.

Photos and video released of the BUK launcher allegedly in the area the missile was fired from.

Along with photo's of the BUK launcher when it was allegedly seized from the Ukranian base that was taken, and an interfax press release from June 30th where Ukranian officials confirmed a BUK launcher was at the base, but claimed it was 'not operational' (no definition of that, so it could easily have been engine/mechanical issues)

http://interfax.co.uk/newsinf.asp?y=2013&m=9&d=23&pg=4&id=517080

Photos and video of what could be the BUK launcher on the back of a low loader being hastily moved back to Russia.

Well, there are numerous photo's of one moving round on a civilian truck, seemingly both before and after the shootdown, we have no confirmation of where the video was taken, other than a claim that it was near the Russian border.

Blocking of anyone trying to get to the wreckage and bodies.

One minute they've being criticised for not securing the area, the next criticised for not letting people near it - it seems that the Malaysian investigation team are still sitting in Kiev, waiting for the Ukranian govt. to give them clearance to go to the area.

Black boxes removed and location unknown.

Apparently in Donetsk, where the separatist administration have said they are waiting to give them to international investigators, but haven't met them yet (One can imagine a significant level of to and fro with the Ukranian government saying they have to go through them as they are the legitimate government for the area, and the rebels saying no they are not, and the international teams must approach them directly, the sort of endless round in circles officious posturing by both sides that marks the whole region)

Looting of wreckage.

That would never happen here, would it? Although record shows us there were several arrests for looting after Lockerbie.

Bodies being left, some being moved to a railway carriage.

Just how quickly can you gear up a recovery operation for that many bodies? let alone in what is effectively a war zone. What facilities would you expect to have in place to receive that many bodies ? IIRC in lockerbie they used the local ice rink as a temporary morgue, in the middle of nowhere rural Ukraine, a refrigerated train doesn't seem an unreasonable solution.

The vice video (and I cant stress enough how good the vice dispatches have been regards this whole conflict) seems to show local people acting with a fair bit of compassion and respect, in tragic and difficult circumstances

Some wreckage being moved, ruining any investigation.

As I understand it, they've been moving wreckage to look for bodies. Again we need to look at this in the light of being a war zone, if you watch the Vice video's you'll see some desperate stories of civilians being killed by Ukranian artillery (and no doubt rebels the too) - there's a lot of tragedy in that part of the world at the moment.

UN voting today on what to do.

Would be good if they forced a ceasefire between the Ukranians and Rebels, for the good of everyone in the region.

There should be a system already in place for a plane crash or similar even in a war zone or disaster zone. The UN should already be there and have the site secured and an investigation underway, not only as it involves an incident involving victims from UN members over a UN country that is not able to deal with it themselves due to war but as the people responsible are also members of the UN.]

Agreed, but what country wants to put their troops or investigators in the middle of a war zone?

You can imagine that on the whole the people who live in the area are trying to do what they can and do so respectfully (that certainly shows in the videos and photos) but it's the actions of the people that are responsible that are the concern (looting, destroying evidence, etc)

Yes it is a daunting task to sort out what to do with bodies and wreckage. I was surprised to see they did have the railway carriage already.

It all seems like the initial knee-jerk reaction was "f***, we've really screwed up here. How can be hide it/shift the blame etc etc....but they've not got any escape and now it's all down to damage limitation to protect the evidence that can be protected and found.

It is all too easy for them to now claim they were protecting evidence by removing it. Some may be true, other complete BS.

It's horrible thing to happen 🙁

Bloke I work with who has a Russian girlfriend is convinced that the Ukranian forces shot the plane down as they were after Putin who was allegedly flying in a plane near by. He also says that the pro russian guys are being massacred and women and children in the area are being rounded up and shot. No idea if this is true but I guess it is what his girlfriend is being told from the homeland.

All the Russian press are singing from the same hymn sheet. It was them there Ukranians in Kiev wot dun it guv! And it has nothing whatsoever to do with the bare-chested crocodile wrestler

I'm sure this universal point of view has nothing at all to do with the amount of Russian journalists who've met with unfortunate accidents when contradicting the line from the Kremlin in recent years

Bloke I work with who has a Russian girlfriend is convinced that the Ukranian forces shot the plane down as they were after Putin who was allegedly flying in a plane near by. He also says that the pro russian guys are being massacred and women and children in the area are being rounded up and shot. No idea if this is true but I guess it is what his girlfriend is being told from the homeland.