Since April the Ukrainian military seem to have gotten it together though Konabunny.
Like I said: big difference between losing a few military vehicles (as you've described), and millions of quids worth of surface to air missiles, and associated radar systems, that would then go on to have a huge impact on the balance of power.
Plus,we'd then be expected to believe that having found/captured it, you'd simply point it at an airliner (at 32,000ft?!!!) and press fire? Like a Playstation game? Not a chance. If you came across that kind of sophisticated weaponry , you wouldn't have a clue what to do with it. It'd be similar to 'finding' a helicopter gunship. Unlikely, to say the least, and not much use to you, without a serious degree of know how
So I don't believe for a minute the whole found/captured thing. Its a total red herring to detract from the bleeding obvious. That Russia has been supplying the kit, and the personal/training to operate it.
Tom_W1987 - MemberPerhaps some people should delve into the history of Ukraine with maybe some focus in different experiences between east and west. Perhaps even why it's called Ukraine.
Yeah all these dirty Ukrainians wanting to break away and form their own state with the help of a large international player. I bet it's a Zionist Jew conspiracy.
You do realise that makes no sense at all don't you ?
I suspect it wasn't meant to, eh ?
Plus, you'd be expecting us to believe that having found/captured it, you'd simply point it at an airliner and press fire? Like a Playstation game? Not a chance. If you came across that kind of sophisticated weaponry , you wouldn't have a clue what to do with it
Agree. Ever seen a Jihadist trying to fire hand-held sams etc? A much simplier device yet with slapstick consequences..
Since April the Ukrainian military seem to have gotten it together
Really? They've managed to transform the military after 20 years of underperformance, losing a chunk of territory, and losing the support of a bunch of interior ministry troops (fired after the revolution) in three months?
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/04/ukraine-troops-flee-luhansk-pro-russia-forces
In fact:
Ukraine's military remains severely underfunded for the protracted and increasingly bloody struggle with well-armed insurgents in the east.Serhiy Zhurets, director of the Center for Army, Conversion and Disarmament Studies, a research center in Kyiv, says the Ukrainian army's budget has been persistently gutted over the 20 years since the country's independence.
He says that by European standards a 200,000 strong military such as Ukraine's would normally need some $20 billion in annual funding to maintain readiness. But Ukraine's defense budget over the past two decades never exceeded $1.3 billion.
That low funding was justified by the official position that there was no military threat to the country to justify more spending.
"The last four years under Yanukovych brought the army to full degradation," Zhurets says. "The money allocated was enough only to keep the army in the barracks, nothing was done to raise its military capability and no modern equipment was purchased."
He notes that the 40,000 Ukrainian troops deployed on the Russian border had just one bullet-proof vest per 100 soldiers when Kyiv started its ongoing counter-offensive against separatists.
Similarly, only 2,700 troops in the east had lightweight Kevlar helmets, while the rest had Soviet-era metal ones. Only a very limited number of units had thermal vision sniper scopes.
Yeah, but that's probably just Russian propaganda...
http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine-army-equipment-donations/25413169.html ...oh.
Ever seen a Jihadist trying to fire hand-held sams etc? A much simplier device yet with slapstick consequences.
Oh gosh.
Who's going to be the one who breaks it to him that Four Lions wasn't a documentary?
Mistakes periodically happen and military forces accidentally target civilian airliners.
This case serves no-one's apparent interests and is simply tragic. Clearly, it makes very good sense for all civilian carriers to treat Eastern Ukraine as a no-fly zone, for the safety of passengers and aircrew.
The proliferation of sophisticated weaponry into unaccountable hands is very unfortunate, but is a very minor problem in terms of numbers of casualties compared to the proliferation of small-arms.
So I don't believe for a minute the whole found/captured thing. Its a total red herring to detract from the bleeding obvious. That Russia has been supplying the kit, and the personal/training to operate it.
Well, the maskirovska was clearly well planned, because TASS covered this story three weeks ago:
http://en.itar-tass.com/world/738262
DONETSK, June 29, /ITAR-TASS/.
[i]Self-defence forces of the Donetsk People’s Republic have taken control over a missile defence army unit equipped with Buk missile defence systems, the press service of the Donetsk People’s Republic told Itar-Tass on Sunday. So far, no details are available about the number and condition of the missile systems taken over by the self-defence forces. The press service refused to comment. The Buk missile defence system is a mobile medium-range surface-to-air missile (SAM) system designed to defend field troops and logistics installations against air threats in conditions of heavy electronic countermeasures and intense enemy fire.[/i]
Well, the maskirovska was clearly well planned, because TASS covered this story three weeks ago:
Remind me, what expansionist dictatorship with a completely compliant/cowed press might have a reason for trying to explain away the source of highly sophisticated weapons in Eastern Ukraine ?
Well they would say that, wouldn't they?
They're hardly going to issue a press release saying "Look at all these shiny new missiles Vlad sent us! Yay! We can take out some planes now!! Woohooo!!! Oh... and those new topless shots of you killing that dragon with your bare hands look great. Nice 6 pack. Have you lost weight?" 🙄
ISIS have got hold of some tasty kit including T72s that the iraqi's never got round to putting out of commission, so it's not an impossible scenario. I think it realtively unlikely that the russians would hand over this type of potentially strategic weapon given it could influence what happened in their airspace, but then I know F all about it other than what's on telly.
It's a small world - I saw a friend on fb commenting on someone else (who they thought might have been on the flight but was actually on a later one) but that person did know someone who was on the flight.
Theres a fairly major Aids Research conference in Austraila that people on that flight were travelling to so people on that flight and the ones before and after would have all known each other either personally or professionally. Aside from the direct losses on that flight you start to wonder what the future human cost could be more broadly - these are people with their sights set beyond cures and looking at eradicating aids completely. There could be setbacks that would cost millions of lives in the long run.
thestabiliser
I think it relatively unlikely that the Russians would hand over this type of potentially strategic weapon given it could influence what happened in their airspace
You are the designer of a high tech, super complex weapons system.
Having your own weapon system used against you is bad.
You design in a nice "backdoor" so that you can negate the system if it is ever required.............
This particular story is particularly sad...
MH17 flight steward Sanjid Singh - who was killed on Thursday - was only on the doomed airliner because he agreed to a last-minute rota swap, the Malaysian Insider reports. It says that in a "bizarre twist of fate" Mr Singh's wife escaped death on flight MH370 131 days ago because she too organised a shift change.
Johndoh, that sounds like the plot for a movie....
🙁
On R4 this morning, one "commentator" was suggesting that Russian Spetsnatz Special Forces could have been operating the equipment.
You are the designer of a high tech, super complex weapons system.
Having your own weapon system used against you is bad.
You design in a nice "backdoor" so that you can negate the system if it is ever required.............
Well, no ****er used it yesterday did they?
high tech, super complex weapons system
initially introduced in 1979, soviet engineered to be operated by a conscript army
Hardly cutting edge, is it?
Theres a fairly major Aids Research conference in Austraila that people on that flight were travelling to so people on that flight and the ones before and after would have all known each other either personally or professionally. Aside from the direct losses on that flight you start to wonder what the future human cost could be more broadly - these are people with their sights set beyond cures and looking at eradicating aids completely. There could be setbacks that would cost millions of lives in the long run.
100 Aids researchers killed according to some sources.
Mad. That's a pretty hefty chunk of the international research community.
BBC news are reporting that some poor Australian family lost 2 members in the missing plane and now have lost 2 in this disaster.
Thanks beyond unlucky
RIP
Well, the maskirovska was clearly well planned
Are you trying to say maskirovka?
Maybe you should lay off the Russian, what with your Kazakh/Cossack confusion that left you inventing conspiracy theories about pro-Russian Ukrainian Kazakhs 1,000km too far to the east.
Yes, the misspelling/mistranslation of a word by one letter in cyrillic by someone else in a translation read elsewhere, cautioned by me by saying ' [i]"the intercept' tape apparently refers to kazaks"[/i], was clearly just another part of the conspiracy.
Got bored of defending child abuse zulu?
initially introduced in 1979, soviet engineered to be operated by a conscript army
This was introduced into service in 1979:
[img] 
[/img]
I wouldn't fancy being on the receiving end of that either. Nor do I reckon I could do much with it if I 'found' one. Admittedly, they've probably updated it a bit since the 70's. I doubt that thought will have entered the Russians heads, when it came to developing the systems used to combat them
And just because its designed to be used by conscripts? Are they all thick, and incapable of being trained, or something?
Hardly cutting edge, is it?
It just took an airliner out of the sky, which i imagine was travelling at a serious speed, and at a height of 32,000 ft.
Thats cutting edge enough for me. Its hardly comparable with ISIS and their captured T72 tanks, is it?
Wasn't comparing the two systems just that weapons do sometimes get captured intact.
Thats cutting edge enough for me. Its hardly comparable with ISIS and their captured T72 tanks, is it?
No, but its pretty comparable to ISIS and their captured Surface to Air missiles:
[img] 
[/img]
😳
ISIS have got hold of some tasty kit including T72s that the iraqi's never got round to putting out of commission, so it's not an impossible scenario.
Can they use it effectively though?
Not a dig, more speculation. I'm just thinking of the training involved to handle a firearm [i]effectively[/i], and multiplying it.
It's fine having a big tank to drive through small towns and impress the ladies, but less impressive if you have no concept on how to use it tactically in a combat situation.
On that note, it would suggest that the airliner shot down was not shot down by a paramilitary militiaman who happened to stumble upon a long range / high altitude SAM, unless there really is a big red button that says 'FIRE'.
I just think it's interesting you that you are trying to paint them as Russian nationals that just so happen to live in Ukraine and "foreign insurgents", but not really people that have a right to live there
I never said that, I never even alluded to it.
So you can be a foreign national resident in a country and still have a right to live in that country. What do you want to describe them as then to save us doing this?
Wasn't comparing the two systems just that weapons do sometimes get captured intact.
Like I said originally fella, abandoning a few tanks is one thing. Leaving that kind of game-changing hardware intact, and operational to be used against you, is pretty inconceivable to any armed forces worthy of the name (which pretty much discounts the Iraqi 'army')
I doubt ISIS would have such readily available help/training in how to use those things, from the people who made them. I'd like to watch (from a safe distance) someone just having a punt on loosing some of those things off, if they didn't know what they were doing. I can't see it ending well
When the big hitters get involved these threads taken on the look of written masturbation.
Got bored of defending child abuse zulu?
There's some choice comments on this thread 🙂
Yes, but given that pretty much every male has done military time in that part of the world where does everyone think the Russians and the Ukrainians get their air-defence specialists from?
Is there another hidden pool of conscripted bodies who carry out these specialist trades? Or is just within the bounds of probability that this group of separatists who are alleged to have carried out the attack have their own ex-conscripts who trained on air defence, on a weapon that is in use with their own military?
Morning briefing: 'we found one of these yesterday, ask around if any of your lads learned how to use one while they were on their national service' - three hours later, you've got a volunteer!
More than likely a few cold war warriors around that trained on them whilst the Soviet Union was still together as well.
Apparently this vid shows the missile truck heading towards Russia minus 2 missiles
[i]Anton Gerashchenko, an adviser to Ukraine's interior minister, has made the latest of a series of claims that a Buk missile launcher allegedly used by pro-Russian rebels to knock down Flight MH17 was smuggled away into Russia overnight. He highlights a video which purportedly shows the launcher with two of its missiles missing, writing "it's not hard to guess why".
“It was exactly these missiles which brought death to almost 300 innocent passengers of the ill-fated Malaysian Boeing,” he added.
Mr Gerashchenko says the video was made by Ukrainian intelligence agents at 4.50am as the launcher was on the move towards the Russian border near the town of Krasnodon.[/i]
pretty much every male has done military time in that part of the world
Russian conscription rates are about 30% of eligible men; Ukrainian rates were even lower before they abolished it. Most conscripts spend their time doing absolutely sod all and rarely see modern weapons. A lot of them are being hired out as construction labour.
clearly just another part of the conspiracy
Apres toi, le delugeski, Rodders, apres toi!
Not a dig, more speculation. I'm just thinking of the training involved to handle a firearm effectively, and multiplying it.It's fine having a big tank to drive through small towns and impress the ladies, but less impressive if you have no concept on how to use it tactically in a combat situation.
T72s have a habit of doing this when hit so can be highly dangerous to the user !
I bet that cameraman's ears were ringing for a bit. I'll just position myself just behind this ****ing big rocket launcher as he fires it. Should make a good shot 😆
unless there really is a big red button that says 'FIRE'.
😀
There's a microsoft designed failsafe.
It asks "Are you sure?"
*click*
*WOOOOOSH*
"Hehe. Wodka Comrades! Nasdarovje!"
Oh gosh.
Who's going to be the one who breaks it to him that Four Lions wasn't a documentary?
I read it, re-read it, and couldn't tell if he was joking or not.
🙂
As much as I think Dear Leader Putih is a dude with no political correctness in reality he is not in charge totally or he has some zombies in his platoon.
Putih, hear me now. You need to have absolutely, totally and 100% percent power in your hand. You cannot let your rouge zombie commander(s) do as they will and wipe your face in their bottom. You need to establish absolute power control here and punish those that make a clown of you.
I suggest you start becoming an absolute powered Dear Leader absolutely or Russia is going to break up like other countries belonging to Dear Leaders, due to their incompetent ground force or commanders or their clown like leaders. We definitely do not want to live in a world of political correctness and to have to feed more of your people if Russia breaks up. Please contain your population like North Korean and do as you like with them but stay in power.
I suggest you go to the commanders that issued the firing down of MH17 and the idiot ground zombie(s) that pulled the trigger, call them out and exterminate them like the pest zombie maggots Russian style to regain your creditability.
Oh ya the fight between Ukraine and Russia nobody gives a toss in South East Asia.
🙄
Ukrainian For. Minister Pablo Klimkin to CNN, on how they know Russian separatists took down MH17:
“because they put it on their Facebook.”
Chew - you've left the lid off the meths again
So you can be a foreign national resident in a country and still have a right to live in that country. What do you want to describe them as then to save us doing this?
They are Russian speakers rather than nationals as they are Ukrainians who been brought up in an area where Russian is the first language.
EDIT: Ethnic Russians would also work.
It's lucky theres so many shit things happening out there,gives all you wiki/google experts a chance to post your rocket/tanks/guns pics,f*****g morons.
Wahts a rouge zombie? Is that like a red commie pinko zombie 😉
[img] 
[/img]
Better Mikey?
So you can be a foreign national resident in a country and still have a right to live in that country. What do you want to describe them as then to save us doing this?
It's just weird that you're trying to paint the Russian population of Ukraine as foreign citizens and foreigners.
Pigface - MemberWahts a rouge zombie? Is that like a red commie pinko zombie
The ones that still maintain some form of brain energy. 😡
It's just weird that you're trying to paint the Russian population of Ukraine as foreign citizens and foreigners.
Weird Brilliant. Oh how you persuade me with your use of logic and reason 😉
FWIW move forward 15 years to Scotland.
It's just weird that you're trying to paint the English population [ who want to return the country to the UK] of Scotland as foreign citizens and foreigners.
I shall use ethnic russian seeing as you did not say what you would prefer.
Following up on @binners point I would very strongly suspect that the US anti-aircraft missiles captured by ISIS have "safe" mechanisms which prevent them being fired without special codes and have a system which allows the Americans to disable them remotely/block their guidance systems. If you are a weapons designer for the US that is going to be a basic design requirement.
The conclusion here for me is very clear. The airliner was shot down by pro-Russian rebels trained by and with equipment provided by the Russians. They thought they where shooting down a second Ukrainian transport plane, as they posted on Twitter.
The ones that still maintain some form of brain energy.
so you are not one then
I would very strongly suspect that the US anti-aircraft missiles captured by ISIS have "safe" mechanisms which prevent them being fired without special codes and have a system which allows the Americans to disable them remotely/block their guidance systems.
ooh! ooh! this is the scene in the movie when the techy guy called "Brains" says 'well, I can just hack in through the back door and disable the missile', and then goes tappity-tappity-tappity on the keyboard and saves the day, right?
FWIW move forward 15 years to Scotland.
It's more like an Israeli suggesting that Arab Israelis are foreigners and foreign nationals.
The conclusion here for me is very clear. The airliner was shot down by pro-Russian rebels trained by and with equipment provided by the Russians. They thought they where shooting down a second Ukrainian transport plane, as they posted on Twitter.
^^This.
Russia obviously have an agenda here if they are supplying serious hardware (like the system used here) to the 'rebels'
Putin is indirectly responsible for this event by supplying weapons of this magnitude to another countries internal conflict.
@kona - no this is where the designers of the system allow for the very real possibility of their high tech weapons falling into enemy hands. This is why GPS for example used to have a deliberate random error applied to it so it couldn't be used by enemy forces to target weapons. ISIS won't be able to successfully fire US high-tech weapons, just the same as a pro-Russian rebel cannot fire a BUK missile without being allowed to do so by Russia.
Russia obviously have an agenda here if they are......
Surely you haven't just discovered that ? It has long been clear, before yesterday, that Russia has an agenda to back pro-Russian separatists.
In the same way that the EU/NATO had an agenda when they backed the coupe which overthrew the previous Ukrainian president.
This is a struggle for influence in a region which Russia considers vital. Russia aren't simply disinterested bystanders, in the same that the EU/NATO aren't. All sides have an agenda.
this is where the designers of the system allow for the very real possibility of their high tech weapons falling into enemy hands...ISIS won't be able to successfully fire US high-tech weapons, just the same as a pro-Russian rebel cannot fire a BUK missile without being allowed to do so by Russia.
That was remarkable forward thinking of those Soviet weapons designers in the mid 1970s.
Listening to Samantha Power (U.S. Ambassador to UN) address the UN right now. She's not exactly holding back - her finger is firmly pointing at Putin.
That was remarkable forward thinking of those Soviet weapons designers in the mid 1970s.
I suspect they might have developed and upgraded the system slightly from the original 1970's design. Its not hard to disable something so that only those you want to use it, can. Even using 70's technology
I fully agree with Jambalaya. One way or another, if Russia didn't want those missiles launched, they wouldn't have been launched
Er, the Space shuttle and the Soviet version, the Buran, were both designed in the 1970's. And i think you'll find they are pretty trick bits of kit. Any engineer smart enough to design a high altitude missile system is easily smart enough to include a VHF FFR to enable/disable their system.....
Anyway, i digress, these systems don't get fired by accident, their primary radar tracking systems saw this plane coming from some distance, and some one on the ground made a conscious decision to knock it down. It wasn't a case of someone "accidentally" sitting on the Fire button or whatever!
Some pretty damning audio [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-28361908 ]here.[/url] (half way down)
I fully agree with Jambalaya. One way or another, if Russia didn't want those missiles launched, they wouldn't have been launched
Question is though, were they *actually* trying to shoot down an civilian aircraft? Or was it mistaken identity?
I would imagine a B-52 or Sentinel would look pretty similar to an airliner at 30,00ft (edit: when viewed from the ground).
I can't see any conceivable reason why it'd benefit anyone to shoot down an airliner. You're unlikely to get public opinion on your side by killing 300 innocent people, who've nowt to do with the conflict.
I suppose thats why armies have chains of command. This is what happens when you put devastatingly effective hi-tech weaponry in the hands of autonomous 'militias' who you've little oversight or control over. I don't think for a second Putin or anyone in Moscow ordered this. But they supplied the weapons and told them to get on with bringing down aircraft, without stopping to think whether the people on the ground would have the skills or experience to do that, without the potential for something disastrous like this happening.
I don't think for a second Putin or anyone in Moscow ordered this. But they supplied the weapons and told them to get on with bringing down aircraft, without stopping to think whether the people on the ground would have the skills or experience to do that without the potential for something like this happening.
That's how I see it too, going with what we [s]know[/s] have been told.
Not even Putin is that daft.
her finger is firmly pointing at Putin.
She's certainly Putin him in the frame.
These are the controls for one of the missiles. It's not exactly point and shoot.
[img] 
[/img]
I believe it was a cock-up - they thought it was a Ukraine air force transport plane.
her finger is firmly pointing at Putin.She's certainly Putin him in the frame
..but has she called him Bonkers yet?
It's not exactly point and shoot.
What's those two sticks on the right for ?
If you give your five year old a handgun and he shoots his little sister dead, who's to blame?
I think it plausible that Pro-Russian rebels would have been able to fire the weapons - they are battlefield tactical weapons designed to provide Anti Air coverage for tanks and APCs in the field.
While they probably don't come with a big red button marked "FIRE" I doubt the Soviets deliberately made them complicated to use. After all when when you are providing AA cover for a bunch of tanks you don't really want your conscript operator to have to go through a 10 minute checklist when an Apache gunship pops up and starts targeting the tank column you are protecting with a Hellfire
If Russia has supplied these weapons then they are ultimately to blame, whether they had a hand in actually operating them or not.
[i]What's those two sticks on the right for [/i]
no idea, I've not had any training.
if it was point and shoot there's only be one stick, surely?
These are the controls for one of the missiles. It's not exactly point and shoot.
I reckon you press that big red one in the middle
Or a touch screen like an iPad.
if it was point and shoot there's only be one stick, surely?
Good point. I reckon you would need to dig out the quick start guide for this one.
Richmtb - you dont think ukraine has a hand in the blame - i certainy do.
Diverting the flight off its approved flight plan to an altitude of just above the no fly zone.?
Followed by their act of terrorism comments afterwards ?
Screams of an attempt to drum up international war aids against russia. Thats exactly the opposite of what we need to do. Yes putin needs taken back to earth but teaming up with ukraine is not how to do it!
Diverting the flight off its approved flight plan to an altitude of just above the no fly zone.?
If that's the case then yes they would share some blame. But as I understand it the airliner was in a well used air corridor?
Is there some evidence that Ukranian ATC diverted the flight?
I expect that the Ukraine will be getting some big heavy noisy presents from uncle sam soon. They've been looking for [s]excuses[/s] reasons to "help" for a while now.
And on the Russian side of the story - its very much being blamed on the [url=rt.com/news/173784-ukraine-plane-malaysian-russia/]Ukrainians[/url].
http://rt.com/news/173784-ukraine-plane-malaysian-russia/
if it was point and shoot there's only be one stick, surely?
One stick, one button.
I expect that the Ukraine will be getting some big heavy noisy presents from uncle sam soon.
[img]
[/img]
Interestingly one of RT's reporters resigned after being asked to lie on air about this issue.
Its on the beebs site rich. Kiev requested changws to the approved flight plan on entry to their airspace.
I just realised that drone has an Antonov in the background, no?
Guardian piece with some interesting quotes
Tape recording (believed to be genuine) of between Russians and Rebels.
Russian operators likely to have fired missiles or at least been present, even with training rebels probably cannot operate the kit
[url= http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/18/separatist-links-malaysia-airlines-mh17-removed ]link[/url]
trail_rat - MemberFollowed by their act of terrorism comments afterwards ?
In what way is it not? Even if it was mistaken identity and they thought they were shooting down a ukrainian military plane, it's still an act of terrorism.