[Closed] Isn't science GREAT!

Doctors say it is too early to predict whether he will play football again.

At this stage, I think a more pressing question might be whether he will eat soup unassisted again.

But, yes, pretty incredible.

He's still not out of the woods yet, depending on the cause of the heart attack he may be confronted by a poor long term survival rate. I hope he get's better, a heart attack at 22 is a a horrible thing.

But yes, medical science is great. Luckily he was one of the few successes in resuscitation.

[i]Luckily he was one of the few successes in resuscitation[/i]

Lucky indeed. The quick actions of the medics/paramedics present meant that despite a delayed return to spontaneous circulation, his brain was reasonably well oxygenated all the time, and that's the key thing.

He was probably cooled down for 12-24 hours, which, if done well, can limit the damage caused in the post arrest period.

Lucky lad...

...although I'm sure prayer helped too.

I'm sure that having a consultant cardiologist from the London Heart Hospital on hand at the game didn't harm his odd anything either.

15 defibs - amazing he's alive

I didn't mean it like that Crikey, I'm a total atheist. What I was saying is that statistically his chances were not all that great were they? How much do the survival rates rise when a cardiac arrest victim is young anyway? How many footballers have survived cardiac arrests on pitch (it's happened several times before) could you enlighten me? Or do you feel like being a smart arse?

I know exactly what therapeutic hypothermia is man, I don't need a lecture.

My favourite youtube comment was words to the effect of

"God gave Maumba back, can we give Beiber back in return?"

I was gently poking fun at all the prayer related headlines I've seen this week, not at you!

The statistics regarding heart attacks are inevitably made up of lots and lots of older people, who tend to have other co-morbidities, so teasing out the impact of age is difficult. Other than congenital cardiac problems, young people tend to have arrests secondary to other issues too, so it's a difficult one to call.

Good outcomes are related to good post arrest care I suppose, and the use of oxygen, the use of CPR to maintain the O2 supply to the brain, and therapeutic hypothermia can all add to a better outcome.

The actual figures for out-of-hospital-arrests make for dismal reading, but that's no surprise, because if your heart stops, so does everything else.

Ok sorry, I took it the wrong way. I agree with you. The figures for in hospital arrests are pretty dismal as well 🙁 Through no fault of medical staff, it's bloody hard to treat.

Oooh you grumpy fella!

Yes, it's all a dismal business, but we have moved from what used to be called 'cerebral salvage', ie, wait for 24 hours and see what the damage was, to actually trying to prevent/reduce said damage.

Yes great news and brilliant medical work. Best wishes for continued full recovery.

{was a post removed by mods as I don't follow the debate above?]

Makes you think about the body and the soul. If he was "dead", however defined (heart stopped?), did his soul stay with his body, did it leave, did nothing happen? Are the soul and the body different things?

I think bwaarp misunderstood me and called me a smartarse, it's the smart bit that I object to. 🙂

I don't believe in souls, so I can't really answer that bit.

...having a consultant cardiologist on hand? a bit patronising to the folk that were there actually doing the job. pics i saw of him he was standing about, holding someone's coat, holding a bag...

i'm stunned by the reported progress this guy has made. all that time out of hospital i'd have put money on his brain being soup. all the staff involved should feel rightly deserving of a huge thumbs up.

still it just goes to show that if you make the attempt....

or should i not rake up those old coals?

Makes you think about the body and the soul.

Hold on! I'm out of popcorn!!

Yeah I apologise for that Crikey!

No worries.

The soul question is interesting, although may degenerate in an STW style. Is the soul dependant on a heartbeat then THM? If so, what about people who have pacemakers?

Is the soul dependant on a heartbeat then THM? If so, what about people who have pacemakers?

Dependant on brain activity I would say.

Go on then, I'll bite.

What's this "soul" you're talking about?

In fairness, having a consultant cardiologist on hand would have been of no benefit whatsoever. Unless he's going to start PPCI on the pitch?

I think most people nowadays use it to mean their fundamental essence or some such rather than an immortal entity.

Are the soul and the body different things?

Absolutely. The soul can enter and leave the body pretty much as circumstances require. I expect that in Maumba's case his soul has left and came back several times.

And it's very likely not completely back in his body as we speak.......his legs, or one arm, or something, is quite possibly sticking out.

His soul will be firmly back in its rightful position should he make a full recovery.

HTH

Bless you ernie for clearing that conundrum up.

The soul question is interesting

Not a very good debate to have though imo. Since both sides only have belief to go on and no real evidence there can't be much meaningful exchange of information.

Imagine if I wrote a computer program on my laptop that simulated intelligence. Self aware, and self critical. In many senses of the word the program would be alive. Then I shut the lid.

Crikey - sorry I was having super. I mentioned heartbeat only because I wasn't sure how "dead" had been defined here. It was more a question of mine - was it simple because his heart had stopped. For personal reasons, I am interested in the idea (I will leave it there) and after the scared of sudden death syndrome thread was re-reading some Epicurian philosophy yesterday and the concept of the experience of death leading on to dear old Wittgenstein. So it was really a follow on from that.

Epicurus wrote about how no-one experiences dealth ie death doesn't happen to you since when it happens it wont be there. Wittgenstein extended the idea in the words, "Death is not an event in life." Then this thread started, and it was merely and extension of all of this.

The Buddhists react against the Western idea of keeping people alive (apparently) and feel that it is important for family members to prepare the soul to allow it to depart the body peacefully. Some argue that in the west, we spend too much time traumatising the soul's of love ones by preventing them leaving at the 'chosen time.' Apologies to any Buddhists if I have got this completely wrong as its a long time since I read Rinpoche.

Excuse the ramblings, still mulling all this through!!!

we spend too much time traumatising the soul's of love ones by preventing them leaving at the 'chosen time.'

Chosen by whom? I didn't think Buddhists believed in a deity?

Despite trying or being drawn to a way of thinking that is primarily realistic and rational, I think that I and those I work with do consider spiritual things a great deal. In my case I strive to be dispassionate and ...rational... but I have never ever let anyone die alone, even when it is clear that they have no connection with the outside world; those who are brain dead, for example.

It's something I teach every new nurse, and something I adhere to, and that time spent sitting by someones bed, usually at night, alone is a great time to reflect.

I don't believe in a soul, I think we are amazing enough without it, but death is a strange time.

molgrips - I am explaining myself very well am I!! Errr, chosen by the soul??? Does that work?

I will quit while I am down!!

But still interesting (for me at least) as to when/if the body and soul separate

But still interesting (for me at least) as to when/if the body and soul separate

[i]When[/i] it happens, is a judgement call.

[img] [/img]

Body and soul separate? Only if you are superstitious.

having seen many many people die I have never seen anything that could be considered body and soul separating - all that happens is the electrical activity in the brain slowly runs down leaving a lump of meat behind. Sometimes this happens before the heart stops beating sometimes after.

Like crikey I would never let anyone die alone and thats why I have seen so much death.

I'm sure that having a consultant cardiologist from the London Heart Hospital on hand at the game didn't harm his odd anything either

Don't want belittle the guy as he offered his help beyond what he needed to do but he'd not be able to do anymore that the Paramedics in that situation. I bet he was quite surprised the environment they have to work in compared to hospitals.

Oh and what Crikey said in his first post.

Paramedics will be better in that situation I would have thought

A couple of great interviews from the docs involved here

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17460781

Ermmm! Maybe.

Last time I did a transfer with an Anaesthetist and a ICU Nurse they got on board with the guy who we were transferring and myself in the back, I'd successfully resuscitated the guy and was going for PPCI, they looked around the Ambulance with bewilderment. The Anaesthetist said "WOW! Good job the crew resuscitated him at home" His expression changed to a massive blank when I said "I didn't, I did it in here whislt travelling at about 90mph through traffic." They both declared their up most respect for what we do in the conditions we do it in.

That said having seen ICU nurses and Anaesthetists at work and one of those times on my own Dad I have a massive respect for them. The NHS is excellent at what it does best, that's why we need to keep it. Oh and Cardio Surgeons doing PPCI is simple one the most staggering procedures I've seen with instant benefits.

Good work to all involved. Suppose if he'd been at training, or home, it'd have been a different story.