while all the war crimes are being committed by the Israeli government on the people of Palestine...some brutal nutjobs calling themselves ISIS are wreaking havoc in Syria and Iraq.
this thread is to discuss and to condemn their brutal actions as war crimes and hope that through an open discussion...people can be made aware of their actions and the suffering of the Syrian and Iraqi people at their hands and at the hands of Syria's equally brutal government forces....
something needs to be done to stop them...they have spilt enough blood and caused enough suffering on their victims
I'll be the first to condemn them then!
I will also add that we shouldn't sell them any weapons, or bits of weapons.
I'm reasonably confident anyone not living under a rock is aware of this.
However, it is relatively unclear what can be done about them. In particular:
- the UK government supports the government of Iraq, but it isn't as well-armed or effective as it used to be (for reasons that are lost in the mists of time)
- the UK government will probably not be providing additional weaponry or logistics to the forces of the Autonomous Region of Kurdistan, whose forces are apparently being pushed back by them - not least because doing so will aggravate (NATO ally) Turkey
- the UK government has painted itself into a bit of a corner in its destructive relationship with Iran, the main regional power likely to put serious force into the field to push ISIS back into their box
- the UK government is relatively unlikely to put KSA, Qatar etc under any serious sanctions to deter them from further funding and arming of the ISIS lot
- the UK government has already decided against military action against the Syrian government - it is not likely to decide to send forces to assist the Syrian government in dealing with ISIS.
- ditto Lebanon.
Apart from ruefully watching the collapse of the (bloody and highly unsatisfactory) Sykes-Picot lines, it's very unclear what the Western role in this conflict can reasonably be. 🙁
we shouldn't sell them any weapons, or bits of weapons.
i agree
they have seen an opportunity to raise their ugly head because of the situation in both countries where 2 brutal dictatorships where funded and created by the western governments...
one has been disposed of and his country has now been left in ruins by the western governments and their armies...leaving it as a lawless state
the other one hasnt been disposed of, although some very weak effort was made by the west but all this has done is angered him and in return he is brutalising his own people while the west idly watches on
both these countries have become a breeding ground for a new type of extreme fundamentalist who has seen the opportunity arise for them to take advantage of the destabilised governments and rise as the monster that is ISIS
I wonder whether Hamas would side with ISIS ? I cannot imagine too may Palestinians would want to live according to the restrictive code enforced by ISIS but I suspect they will sacrifice themselves to anyone who will give them weapons.
Does anyone know if the Palestinians which originally fought against the Syrian government fought with or against ISIS ?
ISIS will take control of Iraq pretty much totally, many many 1,000's more will die as a result. Many more will be displaced. The question is what next, is it Saudi Arabia or Jordon although either will bring a swift intervention form the US I suspect.
The prospect of radicalised westerners returning from Syria and Iraq having fought for ISIS is very real and a huge security concern for the West.
they have seen an opportunity to raise their ugly head because of the situation in both countries where 2 brutal dictatorships where funded and created by the western governments...
Here we go again, it's all the West's fault. The fact that 100,000's of thousands of Muslims are dead, killing each other over sectarian differences in their religious beliefs mixed up with ancient tribal style rivalries is all the fault of the West.
I'm reasonably confident anyone not living under a rock is aware of this.
yes this much is obvious but this thread is actually in response to another thread on STW that is discussing another middle eastern issue, where while that issue is being discussed ISIS keeps getting mentioned. so to stop the whataboutery and accusations of it...it was only fair to create a thread to discuss ISIS only
The Islamic State (ISIS have rebranded themselves) are eminently deserving of condemnation. As, sadly, are many of the sides in the Syrian civil war.
What, in your opinion, should be done to stop them? Traditionally the sort of things that western states have done in these situations have involved either direct military intervention or assisting other groups that oppose them, which often involves overlooking any dubious behaviour that those groups engage in. Neither of those options seems to work out well in the short, medium or long term.
It's not necessarily that I don't think that anything should be done, rather I have no idea what the western world can really do, particularly in terms of short term actions to stop the suffering that's going on right now.
What about the support of dictators, instigating of revolutions and supplying weapons and money Jambalaya?
The West has had a massive part to play in the area, using the very divides you mention to try and play sides against each other. It's not restricted to the Middle East either, a good example is the seeds of the Rawandan genocide sewn by the Belgian colonists.
Here we go again, it's all the West's fault.
oh so when the west trained and funded Assad and Saddam for the benefits of its own political/economic gains/agenda...it was ok
but in doing so they created monsters that they then let off the leash and failed to subseqeuntly control
so why should those that created these two monsters take no responsibility in death and suffering that they both have inflicted on their people?
the west created these monsters. it watched and did nothing as these monsters killed thousands over the years.
when the west did finally spring into action it made a total balls up of things and as a result both countries are a mess thus allowing an even more brutal regime in the form of ISIS to come into power
I feel duty bound to state that ISIS has the right to defend itself, and the citizens of its caliphate, by whatever means at its disposal
this thread is to discuss and to condemn their brutal actions as war crimes
despite how often the OP is made to eat his/her own words, you may have managed to pick a safe subject.
was this one not going the way you wanted? I emailled the link to my isis buddies.
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/isis-islamic-state-of-iraq-and-syria
EDIT - its ok binners will play with you.
I feel duty bound to state that ISIS has the right to defend itself, and the citizens of its caliphate, by whatever means at its disposal
you mean like the Israeli government?! is it allowed to steal land as well?!
soobalias - Member
despite how often the OP is made to eat his/her own words, you may have managed to pick a safe subject.was this one not going the way you wanted? I emailled the link to my isis buddies.
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/isis-islamic-state-of-iraq-and-syria
Eh?
@binners, interesting the form that the ISIS defense has taken don't you think. Especially in regard of the amount of casualties and its expansion over 1000's of kilometers. Also what where ISIS defending exactly ?
@Lifer indeed the West have got involved in Middle Eastern politics but I would argue strongly that these conflicts would have existed anyway. The Sectarian divisions are too strong. These groups of people would have been trying to kill each other and establish control without our intervention. Even in a country like Bahrain which is relatively prosperous and stable we had demonstrations which lead to civilian deaths.
@binners, interesting the form that the ISIS defense has taken don't you think. Especially in regard of the amount of casualties and its expansion over 1000's of kilometers. Also what where ISIS defending exactly ?
@Lifer indeed the West have got involved in Middle Eastern politics but I would argue strongly that these conflicts would have existed anyway. The Sectarian divisions are too strong. These groups of people would have been trying to kill each other and establish control without our intervention. Even in a country like Bahrain which is relatively prosperous and stable we had demonstrations which lead to civilian deaths.
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When someone decides to kill their neighbours they are twunts. Whether they have had training or equipment or money that allows them to achieve this more effectively, they are still twunts, and it is their desire to kill or terrorise that marks them as such, not how good they are at it.
I own both an axe and a lump hammer. If I go on a rampage, no-one should call for Screwfix to be shut down.
Can we draw comparisons between the much lauded poets and writers who left these shores to fight the fascists in Spain and young men from Bradford who go to Syria?
as I read it Hamas are against ISIS and fighting them as Hamas support and are supported by Assad of Syria.
It is hard to know what to do other than the obvious cutting off funding and weapon supply both of which given their looting are unlikely to have a short term impact.
we don't trust our allies on the ground to provide targeting for air strikes as unlike some armies in the region we have a desire to minimise civilian losses.
We cannot afford boots on the ground.
What we can do is encourage support and accommodate those who wish to flee the area controlled by Isis then await the Caliphates inevitable collapse .
Can we draw comparisons between the much lauded poets and writers who left these shores to fight the fascists in Spain and young men from Bradford who go to Syria?
Was someone listening to The Long View last week by any chance?
despite how often the OP is made to eat his/her own words, you may have managed to pick a safe subject.
i'm sorry but who has made me eat my own words?
you're trying to paint a picture that i've been owned by others in what ive said on other threads...
the link you posted to the other thread...i never even made a single comment on that...if i had known it was there i would have but i didnt
Lemon, no, what is it?
@crankboy - no Hamas declared against Asad which is why the Syrian government killed 2000+ Palastinians in attacks (some of the photos released by Hamas and purporting to come from Gaza where actually of dead/injured children in Syria). It is my understanding ISIS fought against the other rebel factions including the Palastinians as well as against the government but I am not sure.
ISIS don't need any supply from the West as they have captured lots of kit and raided the banks of Iraq so they have many $100's of millions. Russia supports and arms Asad and we support the Iraqi government but it's finished IMO.
@binners, no whoosh at all pretty obvious where you where coming from. I was inviting a response.
Lemon, no, what is it?
Radio 4 discussion/history program which did an interesting half hour on that exact topic with a pair of academics last week. Second link down here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/longview
Let me get this right... I'm being posed a question, by a Zionist, about the number of casualties being inflicted on a captive civilian population, by a heavily armed occupying force, on their land, that they've invaded and are now occupying? And pointing out how terrible that is.....
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ISIS - fundamentalist Sunni, backed by Sunni Saudi and Qatar
HAMAS - fairly fundamentalist Shia, backed by Shia Iran
Not much common ground there.
@binners, lets stop the name calling shall we ? No you where saying ISIS is defending itself, against what ? I know what your position is on Israel/Gaza and you know mine.
Hamas fired 450 rockets at Israel from Jan to June 2014, every single one of them intended to kill civilians as they are not accurate enough to hit military targets so they shoot at towns and cities. Hamas wanted to provoke a reaction which they knew would be severe as they wish to fight a propaganda war. It is they who are responsible for their own populations death.
By the way a Hamas rocket hit the Palestinian town of Bethlehem just before the cease fire, fortunately no one was killed.
@gonzy, you are quite up to speed on the region. Did Hamas/Palestinains fight with or against ISIS ? Are Palastinians Shia or Sunni or something else ?
EDIT
ISIS - fundamentalist Sunni, backed by Sunni Saudi and Qatar
HAMAS - fairly fundamentalist Shia, backed by Shia IranNot much common ground there.
@the stabilizer. Thanks for this, this is what I though in terms of allegence but didn't know the religious angle. I suspect ISIS will try and wipe out/drive out the Palestinians in Syria. The long term game plan / "aspiration" involves controlling the whole region including what is currently Palestine and Israel.
By the way a Hamas rocket hit the Palestinian town of Bethlehem just before the cease fire, fortunately no one was killed.
Yes... thank **** for that eh? The last thing you'd want is some dead Palestinians on your hands eh? Phew!
Were there any reports of dead wise men or messiahs?
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ISIS - fundamentalist Sunni, backed by Sunni Saudi and Qatar
HAMAS - fairly fundamentalist Shia, backed by Shia Iran
actually you'll find that you're wrong there. Hamas is a Sunni Muslim organisation. Palestine is a Sunni Muslim state.
while ISIS may be funded by those Saudi tosspots, as they are as you've rightly pointed out a Sunni muslin group, Hamas does not agree with their doctrine.
i'm pretty sure that Hamas are not funded by Iran, but i wouldn't be surprised as they seem to have one thing in common which is that they both do not like Israel for their own particular reasons.
Hezbollah, however is a Shia Muslim organisation that is allied to and funded by Iran, but their operations are mainly based in Lebanon but they are now starting to spread out into Syria...i think that's who you were on about
@gonzy, you are quite up to speed on the region. Did Hamas/Palestinains fight with or against ISIS ? Are Palastinians Shia or Sunni or something else ?
@ Jambalaya
read my previous post please. i was typing it up when you posted your question to me, but hopefully it answers your question
jambalaya - Member
Hamas fired 450 rockets at Israel from Jan to June 2014,
Source?
I can find reports of 181 rockets fired from Gaza in that time period.
Palestinian Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for 60 of those.
Yes... thank **** for that eh? The last thing you'd want is some dead Palestinians on your hands eh? Phew!
@binners well that's exactly what Hamas want as it feeds their propaganda machine. That's why it advises (and I suspect intimidates) families to stay in their homes as that's the best way to protect against air strikes. Hamas knows who its members are and knows their homes are targets but it keeps telling people to stay put. In my mind its akin to suicide bombing.
^^ and the whataboutery continues... 😯
Gonzy - point conceded
In my mind its akin to suicide bombing.
@lifer I posed a chart up some time ago in one of the other threads as @gonzy said no rockets had been fired since 2012 but it was 41 in 2013 and 450 in 2014 prior to the conflict. You can have a search if you care, I found it online. Also the IDF posts up each time the air raid sirens go off and they have been going off almost constantly during 2014 that is what lead to the conflict. That is why the action has so much support in Israel, the average Israeli is fed up with air raid sirens and having to go to their bomb shelters day in day out. They have a special radio channel which is silent apart from the air raid siren, people sleep with this on full volume so that if their is a siren they are woken and can go to the shelter. This is also why Western governments like the UK and the US support Israel as they are aware of the amount of rocket fire and intimidation the Israelis have been subject to it's just not reported in the UK press.
@gonzy, thanks saw your post. Iran sells weapons to Hamas, not sure if that amounts to financial support.
I think ISIS is a far bigger thread to the Middle East than the West and/or Israel. This is not going to end well.
The chart from the 'IDF Blog' which has no sources or breakdown attributed?
😕
@binners well that's exactly what Hamas want as it feeds their propaganda machine. That's why it advises (and I suspect intimidates) families to stay in their homes as that's the best way to protect against air strikes. Hamas knows who its members are and knows their homes are targets but it keeps telling people to stay put. In my mind its akin to suicide bombing.
now why would anyone believe the lies of the Israeli government? they have consistently lied about major point during this conflict. they lied about Hamas being responsible for the murders of the 3 boys that started this whole thing off. they lied about not knowing the UN schools they bombed were full of women and children. they lied about the deaths of the 4 boys on the beach when they said that they thought they were terrorists. they lied about Hamas capturing one of their soldiers which brought about the end of the ceasefire on Friday...they knew he was dead already.
the Israelis have lied over and over again in order to justify what they are doing.
many independent media outlets have confirmed on the ground that there has been no evidence of Hamas using its own people as human shields...Jeremy Bowen of the BBC was one of the most prominent to confirm this and as it did not sit well with the BBC's pro-Israeli propaganda...they pulled him out of the region.
At the end of the day, the whole of the middle east is populated entirely by absolute lunatics! Even the ones who maintain they're the sane ones are completely psychotic genocidal loons! And... really... whats there anyway? Apart from the oil, obviously? A lot of sand? Some mosques? Olive trees? Humous?
Its rapidly approaching the point that the whole lot of them are becoming such a complete pain in the arse, that the west should revue its attitude to the whole region, and adopt a more realistic approach. For everyones benefit. So... this (which would be my personal preference)....
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Or just declare open season, allow unrestricted arms sales of everything unto and including (short range) nuclear, to all sides, and just leave them all too it. Let the mad bastards all kill each other. Which is what they're all absolutely itching to do anyway. At least then we could make a few quid out of the nut-jobs, as they wipe each other off the face of the earth
Give it 20 years, then stroll back in to the glass, nutter-free zone, and start pumping the oil again
I tell you... if I were running the planet, we'd all be better off...
@gonzy - it's not whatabouterry, its about consistency with regard to closely related topics, its about probing the rationale for people's viewpoints.
I think ISIS is a far bigger thread to the Middle East than the West and/or Israel. This is not going to end well.
no Jambalaya, i think ISIS is a big threat to Israel too. if ISIS is allowed to carry on expanding into Iraq and take full control of Syria then it will turn its attention on another Sunni Muslim state...and that will be Palestine. Hamas and the Palestinian Authority recognise this and will resist this if it should happen. the main ideology behind ISIS is to rid the region of Shia Muslims and to create an entirely Sunni Muslim caliphate.
Iraq and Syria are in disarray and that's why they have targeted those two countries as a starting point. they will soon go for Palestine..especially given what is going on there at the moment...it will make the region ripe for the picking.
i'm not saying that they will go in with guns blazing...they will use the attack by Israel on Hamas as a tool to destabilise the local population and to undermine Hamas's grip/influence on the area. they will appeal to the Palestinians by painting themselves as the next hope, and out of sheer desperation, i wouldnt be surprised if they dont start to build up support for them.
at the same time they will make headway into Iran as Iran is a Shia state. if Iran falls to ISIS then they will have Iran's potential nuclear firepower at their disposal...and thats when the threat of ISIS will become very real to Israel....by which time it will be too little too late for the west to intervene.
if this is allowed to happen...then i'm afraid to say i wholeheartedly agree with you in that it will not end well. i'll even go as far as saying that it could be the beginning of the end for everyone.
