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Germany doesn't seem to be involved in as many overseas military 'theatres' as the UK.
Talkemada, there are quite a few constitutional/political restrictions placed on the deployment of German Armed Forces that limit where/when they can deploy too, unlike British forces. It is something that came as a result of what happened in the 1940s .......
I was talking to an ex army mate of mine this morning. Lucky I was on the 'phone, he was spitting blood about this. His take: if you join the army, you know what level of commitment is expected of you, if you can't live up to the commitment then the forces aren't the place for you. He also said something about her being offered a 5 year posting with child care and that, that level of accommodation was practically unheard of.
Next thing, thy'll have their guns taken away from them cos they are dangerous!
.. and so it went on.
Do any other forces, ex forces peeps agree with him or was he just spouting rollocks?
Totally agree with your mate.
Next thing, thy'll have their guns taken away from them cos they are dangerous!
amazingly good idea! All that macho posing with hardware is [b]so[/b] outdated anyway, and this would emphasise their humanitarian credentials! It'll also stop them "accidentally" shooting each other in barracks 🙂
Do any other forces, ex forces peeps agree with him
are you asking the right people after they've been trained to subservience ?
Ahhh ! but SFB it is exactly, like it or not, [i][b]"all that macho posing with hardware"[/b][/i] both now and over the years which allows you the freedon to posture and post your utopian ideals on an internet forum 😉
are you asking the right people after they've been trained to subservience ?
Can't remember that during my training, but then I do not eat brown rice, wear sandles and spout crap.
agree with what monkeychild said.
but then I do not eat brown rice, wear sandles and spout crap.
that remains to be seen 🙂
Ahhh ! but SFB it is exactly, like it or not, "all that macho posing with hardware" both now and over the years which allows you the freedon to posture and post your utopian ideals on an internet forum
I'm not convinced that soldiers ever do more than support oligarchies, and that most of them would rather shoot me than allow me to do as I please 🙁
that remains to be seen
No, I have no sandles and I do not like brown rice, that is a fact.....
most of them would rather shoot me than allow me to do as I please
Yup, if you were doing something illegal/unlawful and their rules of engagement permitted otherwise they would let you go, this time...............
you could argue that point citing anyone anywhereI'm not convinced that soldiers ever do more than support oligarchies
............only soldiers?? 😉and that most of them would rather shoot me than allow me to do as I please
what a load of *hit,used to be if a female soldier got pregers , they left the army , i dont see how the army is responsible on this ocasion,seems like a ploy from some one not from the u.k to get money ,
agree slowjo
you could argue that point citing anyone anywhere
my point is, soldiers only ever fight for their buddies - democracy and freedom are too vague as a motivation, and although some wars [b]may[/b] involve altruistic leanings, for the most part they're just business by other means
are you asking the right people after they've been trained to subservience ?
You'd better be self employed or that would be rather hypocritical.
my point is, soldiers only ever fight for their buddies - democracy and freedom are too vague as a motivation
Whatever man WGAF, we're just lucky to have people brave enough fight or we'd all be goose-stepping and saluting with a straight arm....
my point is, soldiers only ever fight for their buddies
Cock, complete and utter cock.
we're just lucky to have people brave enough fight or we'd all be goose-stepping and saluting with a straight arm....
except that all the people that fought in those wars are no longer in the forces, and the current lot are involved in conflicts that might well be better unfought.
except that all the people that fought in those wars are no longer in the forces, and the current lot are involved in conflicts that might well be better unfought.
Ok Simon, this may be news to you but the soldiers don't pick the conflicts. They do their job. The "current lot" are no different than the "previous lot" in that respect.
Ok Simon, this may be news to you but the soldiers don't pick the conflicts
[b]exactly[/b] - they surrender their freedom of choice, trusting to highly dubious leaderships who might just as easily be working to dismantle freedom and democracy, particularly for those who end up dead 🙁
Ok, so what if the population of Britain felt that WWII was unjust? WWI?
What if the they thought that Bosnia/Kosovo/Sierra leone wasn't worthy?
What if they plain couldn't be arsed? Same result.
What's your idea? **** em all, let the genocide continue?
The army aren't to blame for current conflicts, the labour govt is.
...and who might just as easily not be!.....trusting to highly dubious leaderships who might just as easily be working to dismantle freedom and democracy
I think you are arguing for sake of it now and so OT it's ridiculous.....................
The army aren't to blame for current conflicts, the labour govt is.
did they do the World Trade Center too ?
What's your idea? **** em all, let the genocide continue?
uh, world to [b]backhander[/b], still happening 🙁
uh, world to backhander, still happening
well maybe they were told to go and can't be bothered.
simonfbarnes
Where you bullied by an Army Cadet as a child. Why the total disdain for the Army? Do you have the same beef for the Royal Navy and Royal Air Force?
sfb is just a closet anarchist - not really worth wasting your time arguing with him on this one.
Ok, so what if the population of Britain felt that WWII was unjust? WWI?
Why bring up those conflicts to try and justify the actions of the military now? There's no comparison. Then, the borders of Britain were at threat. That is not the case now. In fact,to try and compare many current members of the British armed forces, with those that fought in WW's 1 and 2, is insulting. Those soldiers fought for freedom from tyranny; Todays soldiers are mostly little more than mercenaries hired to protect corporate interests and further the imperialistic desires of the West.
Where you bullied by an Army Cadet as a child. Why the total disdain for the Army? Do you have the same beef for the Royal Navy and Royal Air Force?
my objection is philosophical, not personal. And yes, I make no distinction between any of them.
sfb is just a closet anarchist - not really worth wasting your time arguing with him on this one
not closet, but being an anarchist wouldn't invalidate my opinions per se. I'm not the only one suggesting British actions in Iraq and Afghanistan are actually making us less secure, and not really making things any better for the natives either.
The "current lot" are no different than the "previous lot" in that respect.
The 'current lot' are all volunteers. The 'previous lot' were largely conscripted, even though most were more than willing to fight for their country.
Massive difference.
I'm not the only one suggesting British actions in Iraq and Afghanistan are actually making us less secure, and not really making things any better for the natives either.
Except that's not actually what you appear to be arguing on this thread.
Except that's not actually what you appear to be arguing on this thread.
I am now. Are we only allowed one idea at a time ?
Are we only allowed one idea at a time ?
No but in your case the record appears to be stuck.
I am now. Are we only allowed one idea at a time ?
No, but you can't invalidate somebody's point about what you were arguing about before by changing tack 🙄
Not that I'm convinced it's worth bothering arguing your new point - has been done so many times before on here, and is never that exciting. If you want an interesting argument you'll have to do better than that.
but you can't invalidate somebody's point about what you were arguing about before by changing tack
so now we're arguing about what we're arguing about, or have I inaccurately paraphrased you ?
so now we're arguing about what we're arguing about, or have I inaccurately paraphrased you ?
You might be - I'm going to follow my own advice!
Why bring up those conflicts to try and justify the actions of the military now? There's no comparison. Then, the borders of Britain were at threat. That is not the case now. In fact,to try and compare many current members of the British armed forces, with those that fought in WW's 1 and 2, is insulting. Those soldiers fought for freedom from tyranny; Todays soldiers are mostly little more than mercenaries hired to protect corporate interests and further the imperialistic desires of the West.
What a load of absolute dogshite.
We do not need to justify the actions of the military. THEY ARE DOING WHAT THEY ARE TOLD TO BY THE GOVERNMENT. This is what the military do, they cannot pick their fights.
There is ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENCE between the soldiers of today and yesterday, that is just nonsense. They are just people at the sharp end, put there by politicians doing their job as a military should.
If you hit someone with a hammer, it's not the hammers' fault.
+1 Backhander. It's nice to see the Army and the RN agree for a change 😀
+1 Backhander. It's nice to see the Army and the RN agree for a change
The RAF agrees too! 😀
If you hit someone with a hammer, it's not the hammers' fault.
if you decide to be a hammer it's your fault
There is ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENCE between the soldiers of today and yesterday, that is just nonsense.
[b]NOT[/b] a claim I'd be in any hurry to make, as it implies that nothing has been learnt and nothing can change. In fact we have different people, different motivations, different circumstances and superficial resemblence.
This is what the military do, they cannot pick their fights.
ie abdication of responsibility ?
So when my B&Q hammer bends a nail who is repsonsible? Hammer maker, vendor, material supplier? Or is it the guy who controls the hammer at the time?
I've not met anyone in the forces who abdicate responsibility; we make our own decisions within a defined framework. Be that the framework our political masters put us in or the tasks set by our Commanders. The concept of the mindless subservient soldier/sailor/airman is about as misguided as it comes.
We might not pick the wars we fight but how we conduct ourselves in those situations is our responsiblity and what separates us.
[url= http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8625446.stm ]Single mum gets £17000 payout.[/url]
if you decide to be a hammer it's your fault
No it's not.
stupid cow should have got 1 weeks show parade ( showing best boots and wearing them on the last nite ) for missing morning paraed, i like loads of other people sufferd this , reports like this really grip my sh$* surly she cannot complete HER obligtion to HER contract ???? again STUPID COW.
No it's not.
The war crimes tribunal says otherwise
Chill, scraprider, chill.
It's not affecting you, so don't get so wound up...
The war crimes tribunal says otherwise
What war crimes tribuneral dude. You talking about the nuremberg defence?
If so you are quite clearly out of your depth.
A hammer likes to be a hammer to drive nails into a wall. All of a sudden, the new owner uses it to smash into someones head. Hammers fault?
you could be incorrect mate , as it comes out of mine and your taxes, money better spent on the lads and gals fighting overseas, not some dozy tart .
Hammers fault?
as much as someone may wish to sacrifice their humanity, there is no legal or moral basis for it. A person may only acquire the status of 'hammer' when frozen solid (and dead)
money better spent on the lads and gals fighting overseas, not some dozy tart .
Actually, I think I prefer the latter option. Less people die with that one. 🙁
"money better spent on the lads and gals fighting overseas, not some dozy tart ."
Actually, I think I prefer the latter option. Less people die with that one.
You mean by giving her the money rather than spending it on better armoured vehicles or protective clothing? You need to think that one through a bit better, Fred.
You mean by giving her the money rather than spending it on better armoured vehicles or protective clothing?
better keep them in Blighty polishing potatoes and peeling boots or whatever it is they do here...
Todays soldiers are mostly little more than mercenaries hired to protect corporate interests and further the imperialistic desires of the West.
You prick, i'm no mercenary I fight for queen and country (proud to do it too)not Obama. If we didn't fight their we be fighting them on our own doorstep even more. Remember the London bombings
better keep them in Blighty
You don't think it's maybe just a tad too late for that option at this stage?
. If we didn't fight their we be fighting them on our own doorstep even more
I'd like to see some evidence for that possibly baseless assertion
Remember the London bombings
carried out by English citizens...
I am speechless!! I really hope she doesn't get one ounce of joy from that money.
She knew what she was signing up for, but because the system wouldn't bend for her she starts crying boo effing hoo. Some people really need to learn how to use contraception if they can't manage to look after their kids on their own.
aren't you forgetting that the purpose of people is to make more people? Everything else is just collateral...
It's amazing how you can hate someone you've never met! SFB and Talkemada - you are a pair of ****s. To be a soldier is to be part of history, a man amongst men. So what have you guys done for the collective good of the country? - had a vasectomy maybe?
So why are you still here wasting oxygen, Simon? I presume you're not planning on making any more people?
To be a soldier is to be part of history, a man amongst men
I would said it was to be a paid bully boy 🙂
So why are you still here wasting oxygen, Simon? I presume you're not planning on making any more people?
no one has killed me yet :o)
It's amazing how you can hate someone you've never met! SFB and Talkemada - you are a pair of ****
Hate ? Oooh, sensitive eh ? Doesn't being a "man amongst men" involve being able to cope with a little ribbing ? And defending democracy (if that even features as a motivation) includes those of differing views
aren't you forgetting that the purpose of people is to make more people? Everything else is just collateral...
Yes go forth and create but................. Be able to look after them yourself and don't expect other people to sort things out for you. Unfortunately a sad reflection of our society today.
. Be able to look after them yourself and don't expect other people to sort things out for you
contrariwise I would say children are our collective responsibility
simon:
better keep them in Blighty polishing potatoes and peeling boots or whatever it is they do here...
I would said it was to be a paid bully boy
you highlight yourself as being a Grade A, Gold Plated, Double Breasted, Triple Distilled ignorant ****!
If I could be arsed, I'd offer you a day at a UK Mil base to show you the error of your ways, however you're not worth it.
you highlight yourself as being a Grade A, Gold Plated, Double Breasted, Triple Distilled ignorant ****!
and this matters why ? I don't know much about most other people's jobs, and they don't know about mine.
however you're not worth it.
you have no way of knowing what I'm worth 🙂
you have no way of knowing what I'm worth
Your bike's not worth much. STW QED.
Your bike's not worth much. STW QED.
hey, good point :o) By his bike you shall know him.
Blimey, some toys out of the pram tonight, eh? 😆
'Night all.
X
To be a soldier is to be part of history, a man amongst men. So what have you guys done for the collective good of the country? - had a vasectomy maybe?
Well said. Having seen the pics of SFB, he wouldn't qualify for girl guides. Something of an inferiroity complex here i think.
In the words of Theodore Roosevelt;
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, [b]so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.[/b]
SFB, in case you were unsure; you are a cold and timid soul who knows neither victory nor defeat. A soul I am very pleased to say I have no place beside. When you meet your maker, he will not look you in the eye. coward.
Simon, your comments on here if anything to judge you by (there's not much more people can on here) demonstrate you know nothing about the role of the Armed Forces.
I know nothing of your job, nor do I care, but your coments are so I'll-founded as to make you look a total tosser, which I'm sure you're probably not.
She only got 17k.
She turned it down while secretly applying for lucrative contracting posts in Afghanistan, which would have sent her away from her daughter for months at a time but offered up to £4,000 a month tax free.
[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/defence/7598669/Tilern-DeBique-single-mother-soldier-who-sued-Army-for-1m-awarded-17000.html ]Story Here[/url]
Having seen the pics of SFB, he wouldn't qualify for girl guides.
correct! by no stretch of the imagination am I at all butch or macho 🙂
The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood
is this not homoerotic claptrap ?
SFB, in case you were unsure; you are a cold and timid soul who knows neither victory nor defeat
you have me bang to rights, and thanks for putting me in my place! Better now ?
PS that's one of the funniest things anyone has ever said about me :o)
She only got 17k.
Which is more than she should have got.
You prick, i'm no mercenary I fight for queen and country (proud to do it too)not Obama. If we didn't fight their we be fighting them on our own doorstep even more. Remember the London bombings
Where does one start, with such a veritable feast?
Nah, actually, can't be bothered. No point wasting my time with such blinkered ignorance.
SFB and Talkemada - you are a pair of *
I am proud to be in such salted company! 😀 SFB is one of the most intelligent, open-minded and thoughtful people on here. One who has courage to speak his mind against a tide of vitriol, too. Thank you.
Aside from all the right-wing reactionism; seems that this woman has been offered a pretty good deal, in terms of her remaining in the Army. However, I'm curious as to why the Army is bending over backwards to help this particular individual. I don't think we've seen anywhere near the whole story, tbh, and I suspect there's a lot more than meets the eye with this one.
Still, it gives the Knee-Jerkers something to jerk off to, eh?
Love the way any criticism of armed forces is met with a tirade of accusations of 'cowardice' and attacks on someone's character. Funny, I thought the current wars are all about protecting our 'Freedom', and surely, our freedom of speech? Oh well...
a Grade A, Gold Plated, Double Breasted, Triple Distilled ignorant *!
I, alas, can only dream of being the recipient of such an accolade...
To be a soldier is to be part of history, a man amongst men.
What a pile of posturing macho bullshit. The kind of thing that recruitment officers tell wide-eyed impressionable young men, to get them to sign up.
Where is the honour in War, other than to have done something appalling, in order that further atrocities cannot take place? There are plenty of heroes in our society; those who educate, those who treat the sick, those who save lives. They do it for the love of doing it, not to win medals.
These guys aren't yet 'Men'. Maybe they never will be.
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Less money in the pot for kit with this stuff going on.
oh and im no mercenary either. im a skilled tradesman as well as a soldier in the British Army.
Talkemada
Out of interest, are you male, female, or haven't you quite made your mind up yet ?
I bet SFB and TalkTalk would commend the services on their work if they actually were face to face with a soldier. Very easy to spout shit on the computer, you both seem very good at it. To have such high and mighty ideals you must both be professional baby surgeons who work for free and spend all your spare time helping the elderly. Or maybe just dicks!.
maybe just dicks!. 😆
I bet SFB and TalkTalk would commend the services on their work if they actually were face to face with a soldier.
should I choose not to defend myself (which might well be the case), I'd have no wish to subcontract it to any third party. There are worse things than dying and resorting into pointless violence is one of them.
To have such high and mighty ideals you must both be professional baby surgeons who work for free
I can't follow this logic at all 🙁
you are a cold and timid soul who knows neither victory nor defeat
typical of the warrior mentality to consider anyone who denies the validity of fighting to be timid
I bet SFB and TalkTalk would commend the services on their work if they actually were face to face with a soldier.
I'd make exactly the same comments as I have on here. Why should I cower to anyone? And I would expect a member of Her Majesty's Armed Forces to exercise the restraint, dignity and discipline that my tax money gets spent on training them to possess. IE, if you're suggesting thats such an encounter would result in me being on the receiving end of violence, as I suspect your anger desires, then that would show a failure of that individual to act according to how they have been trained. 🙂 After all, my only 'weapons' here are words.
Very easy to spout shit on the computer, you both seem very good at it.
Why thank you. You seem quite adept at it yourself.
Interesting that the only responses from those to whose opinions mine differ, are to offer insults and attacks on my character...
I'm minded to think that anyone who can lose their cool on such minor provoction shouldn't be allowed sharp objects, never mind deadly weapons 🙁
I am both confused and touched. Talkemada seems to think that we are just mercenaries but should act with restraint, dignity and respect. SFB blindly quoting war tribunals with no justification also leads me to suggest that his argument is based on fiction rather than depth of knowledge.
A trait of man is to acquire power over other men. Until this is no longer the case, do you not think that a military hard power is the ideal companion of the soft power levers of diplomacy and economy?
My problem is not with the Armed Forces as a whole; they are a necessary evil, sadly. My issue is with how those forces are used, to further the imperialistic aims of the West.
There are those in the military who do an amazing job, as there are those in the Health System, Education, Police and emergency Services. There are times when a nation like Britain should be obliged to help those in the World who are being oppressed, tortured and enslaved. There are times when the British Armed Forces do this. There are acts carried out by members of the Armed Forces, that are deserving of the utmost respect and commendation. Lives are undoubtedly saved as a result of intervention by the Armed Forces of this nation.
Sadly, all of this is shadowed completely by the use of our military to protect Western Imperial interests. Often in the guise of 'Protecting Freedom and Democracy', and other such emotive rhetoric. If people are so willing to speak of History, I'm sure I could show you numerous examples where the British Armed Forces have been ordered to commit unspeakable acts, in the name of Empire.
There have been times in History when the borders of this nation were under direct threat from evil; a time when War was sadly necessary, and when acts of War could be justified. This is not one of those times. For some individuals to compare the World Wars of 1914-18 and 1939-45, to today, is quite frankly insulting to all those who fought and sacrificed their lives in those conflicts. In Afghanistan and Iraq in particular, British military involvement has not brought the Peace, Democracy and Freedom spoken of so freely, by those who oversaw the deployment of our Armed Forces in those lands. In fact, the sad reality is that quite the opposite now exists, where fear and tyranny rule.
I considered joining the Armed Forces, many years ago. I decided that could not allow myself to be a member of an Armed Force used by a Government whose foreign policies I disagreed with. I made my choice, and I respect the choices made by others, I just don't have to agree with them. I considered my decision before I made it, and believe 100% that I did the right thing. In fact, in light of current conflicts, I doubt my own convictions would allow myself to remain a member in any way, had I actually signed up.
Doesn't make me a coward. I'd rather stand up for what I believe in, than allow myself to be subjugated against my will. I don't believe there is a justifiable reason why this nation requires such an immense military force.
SFB blindly quoting war tribunals with no justification
I was merely referring to the doctrine that "just obeying orders" doesn't excuse responsibility for actions. I'm not sure what the blind bit was. You seem to be under the misapprehension that morality is dependent on specific knowledge, when I would say it is a abstract separate from particular cases.