[Closed] Is this racist? Warning: carnival content!

[quote=thestabiliser ]Can we just fast forward to the point where everyone accuses everyone else of being racist and close the thread?

racist

Depending on where they live one of them would have a much higher chance of being stopped by the police for no reason, be attacked or abused, in the US being shot while innocently going about their business, being harassed and discriminated against by a society still run by white men.

Does that mean I can't cosplay as the 13th Doctor because of the way women are treated in Saudi Arabia?

As long as they didn't use memes?

It's therefore in bad taste. They could have easily portrayed the film as white people and everyone would have got the message.

Bloke paints his face to look like movie character? Check.
Misappropriates an oppressed culture to which he doesn't belong? Check.
Does it purely for the enterainment of others? Check.
Throws in a big chunk of historical inaccuracy for good measure? Check.

[img] ?resize=1100x740[/img]

To be fair, Mel Gibson is a bit of a racist

nah, it's only racist when you use them.

Thought so cheers for the clarification.

Bloke paints his face to look like movie character? Check.
Misappropriates an oppressed culture to which he doesn't belong? Check.
Does it purely for the enterainment of others? Check.
Throws in a big chunk of historical inaccuracy for good measure? Check.

Loons think it's a documentary. Check.

😉

[quote=Drac ]It's a bit of an odd thing to do as society has moved on

The trouble is that society hasn't moved on sufficiently far. If we lived in a society where there was no discrimination and there weren't people wanting to abuse other people simply because of the colour of their skin then it wouldn't be a problem.

It shouldn't be a problem and it shouldn't be any different to people doing blueface to be smurfs or yellowface to be minions. I'm sure those doing it meant no offence and most people took none. I'd certainly not be at all offended and I doubt any of the non-white people I know would be either. But unfortunately you can't simply ignore the historical context of blackface when the background problems still exist.

It seems the most likely explanation to me. It would seem unlikely that a group of lads would go to the trouble of building a float based on a movie celebrating the success of a Jamaican sporting team and dressing up as the characters in the film because they hate black people.

Did they find a skinny black man to put on a fat suit and pale makeup to be John Candy's character?

I would say more misguided rather than out and out racism!

is it racist - no

is it offensive - no

are people overly sensitive - yes

TBH I doubt that a bunch of racists would have even watched the film in the first place.

racists don't have to be full on KKK members. offensive behavior and negative stereotypes are racist too.

Drac, see also Ed Balls.

Doesnt he look smart Captain [s]Flashheart[/s] Mainwaring?

Out of interested has anyone seen someone with white skin?

This is our local group https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/blacked-up-morris-dancers-flee-12422618.amp

Interesting quote from the Brum Mail there

The dancers tried to explain why their faces were painted black, but they would not listen.

I thought this a more interesting quote:

Shrewsbury Folk Festival bosses announced last year that it will no longer book acts who wear full black face paint .

Equality group Fairness, Respect, Equality Shropshire (Fresh) said the ban showed sensitivity “to a changed social climate”.

By "changed social climate" they presumably mean one which has changed to be intolerant to people doing things which have no offensive context at all. Clearly there are limits to fairness and respect.

Shrewsbury Folk Festival bosses should be black-affronted.

We can all whitelist the Shrewsbury Festival now, presumably?

racists don't have to be full on KKK members. offensive behavior and negative stereotypes are racist too.

And that's the point I'm making.

Wearing black make-up to take the piss out of non-Caucasian people is absolutely not on. Wearing it as part of a costume in a respectful manner should be fine.

Out of interest, whilst we're busy all being offended by proxy, have any Jamaicans voiced a complaint?

We can all whitelist the Shrewsbury Festival now, presumably?

I find your assertion that "whitelisting" is positive and "blacklisting" negative offensive, you massive racist.

or you miss irony 😉

... or I do!! 😀

(-:

racists don't have to be full on KKK members. offensive behavior and negative stereotypes are racist too.

Shrewsbury Folk Festival bosses announced last year that it will no longer book acts who wear full black face paint .
Equality group Fairness, Respect, Equality Shropshire (Fresh) said the ban showed sensitivity “to a changed social climate”.

There's a bloke who's a member of the same bike club my brother belongs to who's been known to dress up in a KKK outfit he got hold of at club parties, has received some funny looks...

Indeed.

Someone posted earlier a picture of someone wearing a Nazi costume. If we're drawing parallels between dressing up as a person of colour and dressing up as a Nazi, we've got problems.

Also, Godwin's on the phone...

Cougar - Moderator

Someone posted earlier a picture of someone wearing a Nazi costume.

If we're drawing parallels between dressing up as a person of colour and dressing up as a Nazi, we've got problems.

Don't forget that Nazis are racists. Cultural appropriation is racism. Therefor blackface = Nazism and genocidal hatred .

Even if you think you're not racist, that's just your unconscious racial bias talking and you are definitely a racist.

Would that changed social climate be the fact that miners no longer have to disguise their faces when trying to earn a few bob while on strike?
Cos that's the significance of the black faces Border Morris sides wear when dancing. Has zero racial context, however, some [s]white[/s] people are taking it upon themselves to get offended on behalf of people who almost certainly couldn't give a shit.

One slight edit, but otherwise spot on.

Don't forget that Nazis are racists. Cultural appropriation is racism. Therefor blackface = Nazism and genocidal hatred .

So ok, let's be clear here. "Blackface" is a very specific style of make-up, intended to, ahem, 'parody(*)' black people. Black faces, almost clownlike white lips, hyper-realised stereotypes. It's light years away from playing dress-up.

Cultural appropriation is inevitable when people of different cultures mix. How many white kids speak [url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multicultural_London_English ]MLE[/url] for instance. It's in our nature to imitate those around us, to absorb traits and customs. I had a curry on Saturday, am I racist for pretending to be Indian?

(* - pander to racists)

Even if you think you're not racist, that's just your unconscious racial bias talking and you are definitely a racist.

By that definition we're all racists.

Context Cougar the pic I posted was this in reply to this.

I was just trying to think of similar situations where people would probably just think 'ah, that's just people having a laugh & dressing up', rather than them being racist/sexist/homophobic etc....

Someone dressing up for laugh in something related to racist context, I did not suggest he was as bad as hitler.

[img] [/img]

So dressing up Papa Lazaro would not be advisable?

Cougar - Moderator

Cultural appropriation is inevitable when people of different cultures mix. How many white kids speak MLE for instance. It's in our nature to imitate those around us, to absorb traits and customs. I had a curry on Saturday, am I racist for pretending to be Indian?

No, of course you're not. In the same way you're not using cultural apporpriation by posting a giff or meme featuring a black person regarless of what the BBC says. Cultural appropriation is imo a positive thing but it has become another stick with which to beat people who aren't on the "holier than thou" uber pc* bandwagon.

*And yes of course, by criticizing political correctness I am a Daily Mail reading, Brexit voting xenophobe and therefor racist.

Even if you think you're not racist, that's just your unconscious racial bias talking and you are definitely a racist.

[b]By that definition we're all racists. [/b]

And that is exactly the point.

*And yes of course, by criticizing political correctness I am a Daily Mail reading, Brexit voting xenophobe and therefor racist.

Careful now. There's two discrete issues here I think, two sides of the same coin.

First, I think it's valid to criticise "political correctness" when it's the sort of weapons-grade nobbery that asserts that you can't say "blackboard" because it's racist. It's a board, it's black, the clue's in its name.

Second, it's easy to hide behind "political correctness gorn mayd" to justify being a racist arsehole.

We should perhaps be striving for a middle ground, of being sensitive to issues without hand-wringing.

Cultural Appropriation is utter bollocks.

When one culture meets another, after initial suspicion usually comes the realisation that we're all basically the same.
Then, we start to appreciate and laugh at each others differences and cherrypick the bits we like from each of our cultures.

This may take a while, but it happens.
🙂

It's what people do and have always done.
Basic social evolution.

First, I think it's valid to criticise "political correctness" when it's the sort of weapons-grade nobbery that asserts that you can't say "blackboard" because it's racist. It's a board, it's black, the clue's in its name.

Nah, that logic doesn't work - remember the John Terry case. He called another wendy bloke a F*** Black C (IIRC). The only word that was printable/correct/and indisputable was "Black". But without reference to it there was no case. Calling the other wendy player a F*** C was OK (apparently). What was not OK was qualifying the abuse with the adjective "black".

So your analogy requires further work methinks....

Cougar - Moderator

Careful now. There's two discrete issues here I think, two sides of the same coin.

First, I think it's valid to criticise "political correctness" when it's the sort of weapons-grade nobbery that asserts that you can't say "blackboard" because it's racist. It's a board, it's black, the clue's in its name.

Second, it's easy to hide behind "political correctness gorn mayd" to justify being a racist arsehole.

We should perhaps be striving for a middle ground, of being sensitive to issues without hand-wringing.

I don't want to get into analyzing what everyone writes in minutia and I know there's no ulterior/subtext in your post but it's worth pointing out that on the one hand you have relatively harmless "nobbery" but on the other you have a racist asshole.

So if we take [url= http://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-40931479/is-it-ok-to-use-black-emojis-and-gifs ]this BBC[/url] piece on cultural appropriation ([i]racism[/i]) which claims that gifs and memes are "digital blackface" it's not entirely inconceivable that many people might describe it as "political correctness gone mad". In so doing, they've stepped on to the spectrum of racism, they are racist to some degree, but anyone defending the BBC article is just a harmless nob.

Arguing [b]against[/b] cultural appropriation being a form of racism carries with it a stigma and a danger that the opposite does not, and there's a tacit implication that opposite position is done from an entirely neutral and/or morally virtuous position.

Cultural Appropriation isn't exclusive to race.
In fact, the exact opposite.
It's an intrinsic, beneficial aspect of human nature.

Watch how children change when they go to senior school - many little, self contained infant school cultures coming together.
Phrases, fashions, friends and ideas are all appropriated, culturally speaking.

It's the natural process of learning to live with each other, to enrich our understanding and personal experience of humanity.

Nah, that logic doesn't work - remember the John Terry case. He called another wendy bloke a F*** Black C (IIRC). The only word that was printable/correct/and indisputable was "Black". But without reference to it there was no case. Calling the other wendy player a F*** C was OK (apparently). What was not OK was qualifying the abuse with the adjective "black".

So your analogy requires further work methinks....

That's nothing to do with political correctness, it's a straw man. It's racial abuse (as oppose to the regular kind of abuse) and presumably the resulting report was censored for language. I'd argue that the latter wasn't "ok" but rather both FC and FBC were completely unacceptable, what differs is severity.

So if we take this BBC piece on cultural appropriation (racism)

I don't mean to be rude, but my gut reaction to this is "bollocks."

"Ever shared this? You'll probably notice that the most popular [reaction gifs] are of black people being dramatic." No, no I haven't noticed that. I've been on the Internet longer than the Web has, and I've seen precisely one of those clips before.

In the STWsphere probably the most common reaction GIF is the Malcolm Reynolds one. Honourable mentions to Picard, Fry from Futurama and various people applauding.

And even if it were true - so what, they're sharing clips of people being expressive. "Let's find a .GIF of a black man looking shocked" said no-one ever. Hell, it'd be more racist *not* to share those clips because they were of black people.

She then goes on to say "this is the same as blackface" - rightly condemning racist stereotypes, but to say they're the same thing is disingenuous at best.

"Lets talk about white people using dark-skinned emojis" - sure, lets. Is that a thing? Does it actually happen? And if so, can we find out why? Maybe I live in a PC echo-chamber bubble but I've never come across it. It's only relatively recently that non-Caucasian emojis even existed.

"This is a form of cultural appropriation, paying little respect to someone else's culture and using it how you please." *photo of woman with blonde dreadlocks* - you know what, **** it, if you're getting pissy about a haircut then I'm out.

Also,

So if we take this BBC piece on cultural appropriation (racism)

It's a BBC piece on "cultural appropriation", you've added the "(racism)" bit yourself for dramatic effect.

A racist, yesterday.

[img] [/img]

Another racist yesterday

[img] ?x77027[/img]

Edit - four pages and no pointless graphs. This place has changed 😥

Cougar - Moderator

It's a BBC piece on "cultural appropriation", you've added the "(racism)" bit yourself for dramatic effect.

Yes of course I did. I'm conflating cultural appropriation and racism in the same way that people conflate Trump voters with racists and Nazis, or the same way that people conflate Brexit voters with racists, xenophobes and Nazis.

The article I linked to has inspired you to write a tirade about what a load of bollocks it is. I agree with you. It is complete and utter bollocks.

But my point is that there's assumption that articles like that are completely harmless and benign, but to criticize them is to be a Daily Mail reading, pc gone mad, racist. That link was posted a while back and went almost completely unchallenged, it was actually posted (perhaps tongue in cheek) to imply that Drac was somehow racist for posting a "black" gif.

We've also recently had people stating that all white men have unconscious racial bias and are inherently racist. No reaction. Oh and I posted that all gender was a result of socialisation just to see if anyone would disagree with me - not a sausage.

We're in a downward spiral where people are actively hunting nazis of their own creation so that they can prove how virtuous they are and to disagree with the nazi hunters is to put yourself in their sights.

Oh look, its a thread where a load of white lads who have probably never faced any kind of racism are getting a little offended because someone has taken offence to their inalienable right to poke fun at another race, but in an oh so light hearted sitcom 70's manner, because being "funny" about it makes it all alright.

Now all we need is a thread about those bloody women wanting something scandalous like equality and we'll have the complete set.

[quote=Cougar ]She then goes on to say "this is the same as blackface" - rightly condemning racist stereotypes, but to say they're the same thing is disingenuous at best.

You're being very generous there - it is complete and utter bobbins.

I'm not sure if I'm agreeing with jimjam here, but just feel the need to point out that the fundamental here is Wheaton's Law. If you're not sure if you're breaking Wheaton's Law, then it's better to be safe and stop.

[quote=Cougar ]We should perhaps be striving for a middle ground, of being sensitive to issues without hand-wringing.

Spot on. For me the middle ground is somewhere between Morris Men and people blacking up to act out Cool Runnings - Morris Men blacking up is completely reasonable, and anybody saying otherwise is breaking Wheaton's Law, blacking up act out Cool Runnings is a bit dodgy. Though I'm happy to accept that some people think the Cool Runnings thing is OK - it doesn't offend me, but I can understand how people are quite reasonably bothered by it (the context which I don't think has been mentioned is that Cool Runnings is funny because black people don't usually do bobsleighing, which makes it more problematic to black up for).

FWIW I've never experienced racism, but I do have a very good friend who is black and we tend to agree on stuff like this.

Reading this with interest as it's in the next village along from us, we were going to go to the carnival but selling a MTB and buying a car got in the way.

We've also recently had people stating that all white men have unconscious racial bias and are inherently racist. No reaction. Oh and I posted that all gender was a result of socialisation just to see if anyone would disagree with me - not a sausage.

....there's a reason for that, it's clear bait and crap stinky bait at that...beyond the pale as my parents would say...or is that racist now!?

We're in a downward spiral where people are actively hunting nazis of their own creation so that they can prove how virtuous they are and to disagree with the nazi hunters is to put yourself in their sights.

Now this I do agree with, we've reached a point where we (generally) have things so good that people are actively trying to equate language to violence in order to...i don't know?...reorder the world according to their view?...suppress any kind of differing point of view?....the clamp down on language, thought, cultural appropriation etc is genuinely worrying because if there's genuine good intent then it works both ways....take cultural appropriation for example, if a blonde woman with dreads is offensive then surely Asian and African people in western wear are doing the same thing and should be pulled up on it....which is ridiculous, surely we're not heading backwards to a point where certain hair-dos, clothing or foods are considered exclusive to a particular group of people!?...and what's most ridiculous about cultural appropriation is it's not racist, the clue is in the title, culture and race are different...when on holiday in the Caribbean several years ago I went on a boat trip run by a white guy, he was born and raised in Jamaica, Caribbean culture was his culture, he even had a Caribbean accent and used the local dialect/patois...some people would at distance and without knowing his whole story scream racism or cultural appropriation...which is bollocks because everything about the Caribbean was his, born and bloody raised....more so than a black guy from the UK who's never seen the Caribbean but describes himself as Afro-Caribbean...it has become ludicrous.

(while people boringly discuss what is and isn't racist in this thread what's going massively underreported is the theme of the carnival...movies...or is Cool Runnings off limits now?...is it even ok for a white man to watch it?... is it ok to laugh at a comedy containing black fellas?)

Ridiculous.

deviant

We've also recently had people stating that all white men have unconscious racial bias and are inherently racist. No reaction. Oh and I posted that all gender was a result of socialisation just to see if anyone would disagree with me - not a sausage.

....there's a reason for that, it's clear bait and crap stinky bait at that...beyond the pale as my parents would say...or is that racist now!?

Not within the context of the threads. On the thread about the recent google memo the view that all gender except physical traits was a result of socialisation was posted multiple times to the point where it seemed to be the prevailing opinion. Now that is complete mince, totally at odds with science fact. And the unconscious racial bias thing has been brought up multiple times too.

the clamp down on language, thought, cultural appropriation etc is genuinely worrying because if there's genuine good intent then it works both ways....take cultural appropriation for example, if a blonde woman with dreads is offensive then surely Asian and African people in western wear are doing the same thing and should be pulled up on it....which is ridiculous, surely we're not heading backwards to a point where certain hair-dos, clothing or foods are considered exclusive to a particular group of people!?

100%. Imagine if art and culture was only allowed to look introspectively - how monolithic and distant would things be. Unsurprisingly this is only a sin if you are white. Imagine how racist it would be to insist that asians dress in traditional asian garb and only eat asian food.

[img] [/img]

I think we're both singing from vaguely the same hymn sheet jimjam, which is good....tolerant even which is nice because a lot of the supposedly PC stuff floating around at the moment is exactly the opposite.. they preach tolerance while being intolerant themselves.

Personally, I think a backlash is coming...people are fed up of being told what to say, do and think...frankly I'm amazed it's gone on consistently for the last 30 years, obviously some things were out of order and needed dragging into modern and more equal times but now people just seem to be looking for offence where none is intended or even taken by the supposedly targeted group!... the professionally offended as some might say, thankfully a lot of kids coming through now are far from indoctrinated with it, they are tired of it and want to speak their mind...call it the Alt-right, the Trump effect, the college campus tours in the US by Ben Shapiro and Milo Yianopoulis etc....but there is a definite feeling of (as rage against the machine famously sang) **** you I won't do what you tell me.

deviant - Member

I think we're both singing from vaguely the same hymn sheet jimjam, which is good....tolerant even which is nice because a lot of the supposedly PC stuff floating around at the moment is exactly the opposite.. they preach tolerance while being intolerant themselves.

Personally, I think a backlash is coming...people are fed up of being told what to say, do and think...frankly I'm amazed it's gone on consistently for the last 30 years, obviously some things were out of order and needed dragging into modern and more equal times but now people just seem to be looking for offence where none is intended or even taken by the supposedly targeted group!... the professionally offended as some might say, thankfully a lot of kids coming through now are far from indoctrinated with it, they are tired of it and want to speak their mind...call it the Alt-right, the Trump effect, the college campus tours in the US by Ben Shapiro and Milo Yianopoulis etc....but there is a definite feeling of (as rage against the machine famously sang) **** you I won't do what you tell me.

Well I think we've already seen the backlash. Trump, Brexit, the rise of identity politics and ideologues on both sides (and the widening chasm between perceived left and perceived right). Charles Murray put it best - people didn't vote for Trump because of his policies, they voted for him to be their murder weapon.

The bar as to what constitutes a political incorrectness, misogyny, racism and even nazism is so comically low now that if you're not all the way in, then you might as well be all the way out and get comfortable with being called those names.

Obviously a few twonks blacking up at a local parade isn't a hate crime meriting a police investigation. It's insensitive, stupid and ill advised but not hateful. Defend them in any way though and it's proof of your unconscious racial bias and your privilege.

[url= https://goo.gl/images/7dx8iT ]Where de white women at?[/url]

beyond the pale as my parents would say...or is that racist now!?

Not unless you can be racist about a wooden fence.

Supposedly you can be racist about a piece of slate used for writing on....blackboard, why not a fence?...i demand my right to be offended.

The bar as to what constitutes a political incorrectness, misogyny, racism and even nazism is so comically low now that if you're not all the way in, then you might as well be all the way out and get comfortable with being called those names.

This.

[quote=jimjam ]Defend them in any way though and it's proof of your unconscious racial bias and your privilege.

Feeling victimised, snowflake?

Quite a simple rule, if you have to ask is this racist? it will be to someone.

aracer - Member

Feeling victimised, snowflake?

I can't be victimised on account of all my white male privilege. We run the world don't you know.

This is one of those non-stories that made me groan, and ties in well with the "are you proud to be British" thread. No... things like this are why I worry for the future of this country and just hope the UK that my kids grow up in finds some common sense and manages to silence the irrationally and perpetually (but not really) offended.