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Scholarships = Mechanism for maintaining good result averages 😉
Ah, never let a bit of fact get in the way of class war muppetry, eh.
FWIW, having actually met real Eton types in the wild, it's not really them I'd worry about. IME they get a fairly rounded education and the school really pushes the message to them that they're very lucky in the grand scheme of things rather than superior. It's the people who went to the other very expensive private schools that aspire to be Eton who tend to be noticeably less rounded and much more likely to believe that they're inherently superior because their Daddy has lots of money.
But again, don't let that stand in your way 😉
Scholarships = Mechanism for maintaining good result averages
Maybe. More likely = Mechanism for retaining charitable status...
I'm sorry but we have educational apartheid in this country, based on social class and ability to pay. Its archaic and grossly unfair. And more importantly, its a ridiculous waste of talent.
And its getting worse. We're going backwards. The chances of 'bettering yourself' are heading back to Victorian levels and our education system is a root cause of this.
Blaming the state school teachers?
clubber..."Ah, never let a bit of fact get in the way of class war muppetry, eh.
FWIW, having actually met real Eton types in the wild, it's not really them I'd worry about. IME they get a fairly rounded education and the school really pushes the message to them that they're very lucky in the grand scheme of things rather than superior."
I agree, the most superior and pompous acting twits in society tend to be those from the middle classes who jealously aspire to be something more....the number of obnoxious Solicitor types i've come across beggars belief....i'm sure they're not trained that way so why do they act that way?....spend any time with the real upper class and it becomes oddly apparent how normal they are.
binners - Member
I'm sorry but we have educational apartheid in this country, based on social class and ability to pay. Its archaic and grossly unfair. And more importantly, its a ridiculous waste of talent.And its getting worse. We're going backwards. The chances of 'bettering yourself' are heading back to Victorian levels and our education system is a root cause of this.
Don't disagree with any of that BUT that's not the point that were making, was it? You were saying it's all the fault of Etonians because they're all horrible individuals.
The biggest factor in determining academic results (IIRC) is parents - eg expectation, values, etc.
And I should probably also clear up that clearly ability does have an effect on whether you get into Eton or not. An Etonian friend (yes, really! and he doesn't even eat babies for breakfast!) has two younger brothers. Neither of them got through the entrance exams so went to a different school.
I'm not saying they're all horrible people at all Clubber. Though lets be honest - Dave and George come across, when they let their guards down, as monumentally smug, self-satisfied and arrogant.
My point is the assumption that Eton > Oxbridge provides the brightest in the country. This patently is not the case. It provides the 'best' from an unbelievably narrow section of society. And this, I think, is detrimental to all of us. Apart from a tiny 'Elite' obviously
Dave and George are politicians. Of course they come across as smug, self-satisfied and arrogant. I can't think of one front line one recently who isn't.
My point is the assumption that Eton > Oxbridge provides the brightest in the country
Do people really assume that? Bizarre if they do. Regardless, what it also doesn't mean is that because they're from that narrow section of society that they're inherently bad/wrong/nasty/whatever other perjorative we routinely see used to describe Etonians.
I'm not so convinced by the Oxford bit FWIW - I think university is much more egalitarian though clearly the academic advantages of being well off help in getting the necessary grades.
My point really is that there's clearly an issue if Eton is overly represented because it necessarily says there's shortage of opportunity to be a successful politian if you're not from the right background but I'd be interested to see how far that extends to real world companies - not just government and a few big UK companies.
[url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/nov/29/osborne-class-war-autumn-statement ]Polly Toynbee thinks it is.[/url] Blimey, she was a bit fiery there!
A more moderate opinion would say that the financial recovery measures instigated by Osborne have so far made banks even richer, and penalised those who were never going to vote Conservative or vote at all.
So that will be a cautious 'yes' from me then.
The class war never ended, but it became much more unacknowledged than before and does seem to have just shifted.
Unlike the past however it is now "the Middle" who are being squeezed like never before. I think a big part of it is that the fall of the Soviet Union removed any form of restraint on the behaviour of the elite because capitalism was seen as all powerful with the market the solution to everything. But what is forgotten is that the West did not win the Cold War with missiles and nukes, but because it offered a far better chance of improvement for "the Middle", whereas Soviet civil society stagnated as wealth and power became ever more concentrated in the oligarchy.
A situation which we now find ourselves in Britain.
Polly Toynbee makes a good point but only if you consider a two class system - the flithy rich and everyone else. Certainly not following the normal three class one that people talk about.
Good article by Polly Toynbee. And sums things up nicely:
[i]The Bullingdon budget tears the last veil of deceit, leaving the nasty party naked for all to see. [/i]
With the exception of token (and diminishing) scholarships, if you can't pay then you are not getting that level of education
I think this isn't entirely fair, my old school, which I guess is regarded as one of the major public ones, is aiming for 10% of the intake to be funded by its foundation. The foundation works with partner schools in deprived areas who put forward pupils who will be able to benefit most from a boarding experience rather than just the most academically gifted.
St Pauls, Osborne's alma mater, is planning to adopt a "needs blind" admission policy so if you are good enough you will get in even if you can't pay. I dread to think how much they will need to raise to achieve this, but that is their stated intent.
Therefore there is movement and it is not restricted to window dressing to maintain charity status.
but we don't have a tory government?, we have a coalition and labour would be just as cack at managing this.
Basically we're all screwed and it's going to hurt regardless of which bunch and self congratulatory back slapping bumwipes pretend to be in control.
the past is past, no point apportioning blame to which ever "side" you don't like it will never produce a constructive answer or solve a single problem. Pointing fingers at each other screaming "it's his fault" like kids will get us no where.
The future is bleak and it's going to get worse.
It will never get back to how it was so let's all just get on with on being waist deep in the sh1t and when the tea break is over get back to doing a handstand in it.
or you can bitch and winge ..... and it'll still happen to us all anyway 🙄
Blimey the old Eton argument again???
No point blaming Eton or Oxford. Take a look at those who destroyed state education and the ladder to progress that it used to offer. That's the correct starting place. Talk about a dash to the bottom?
And then, what should an OE or an Oxbridge Graduate do with the education that he/she has been fortunate to have? Waste it, or put it to use?
The naked OE hate-fest is just another sort of prejudice or -ism. Not only stupid, but frankly missing the point of the wider educational issues.
The future is bleak and it's going to get worse.
🙂
The point is though Tazzy that some people are not sharing the pain. And in a lot of cases they're the ones that caused the whole mess in the first place!
Executive pay is rocketing! Bankers bonuses never went away. Neither even remotely 'earned'! And tax evasion is endemic for the rich
We're all in this together? My arse!
.... I was just wondering whats happened to all the Tory supporters who used to pop up on threads such as this and chunder out things like Bliar and so forth. Seems to me that there are a lot less folk who are prepared to admit their toryness nowadays, or am I just veiwing things through my, conveniently close to red, rose tinted specs?
binners - Member
The point is though Tazzy that some people are not sharing the pain. And in a lot of cases they're the ones that caused the whole mess in the first place!
And that's a good and perfectly valid point. It's got nothing to do with Eton or Oxford though.
Old Etonians like these guys have seriously warped sense of values - and just 'cos daddy had money does not mean they are bright.
Its all about entrenched power and privilege and ensuring they retain that
The future is bleak and it's going to get worse.
Indeed it is - as a result of the tory policies.
binners, at what point did you ever think that life was fair? You can't change it, unless you want to live in a communist state, in which case feel free to leave. Other than that why waste energy complaining you're just wasting valuable time you could be learning new things and bettering yourself to be able to earn more cash and crush the Proles. Just get on with it 😀
But its not affecting everybody Tazzy, thats the whole point. The rich continue to get richer and somwhow manage to convince us we are the cause of the problem.
Edit- you have to be quick around here
A fair point! I'm going to go home and flog the house-boy to within an inch of his life!
I can't really see the collapse of the Euro as the fault of some nobber in posh suitIndeed it is - as a result of the economic crisis that's effecting Europe and much of the world
TJ - whether that is true or not, the REAL issue is how do you create an education system that allows those that you claim are excuded, to access the kind of priveleges that Cameron and Osborne enjoyed?
Otherwise we end up with a political spectrum of DC/GO at one end, Prescott at the other and a few career politicians in the middle (with the odd token candidate thrown in).
Of course, given your strong belief in evidence etc, I am sure that you have tested this idea against lots of OEs?
TandemJeremy - MemberOld Etonians like these guys have seriously warped sense of values - and just 'cos daddy had money does not mean they are bright
I bet the last bicycle helmet in Scotland that you've NEVER met an Etonian.
Yeah... but he lives next door to Polly Toynbee 😀
I can't really see the collapse of the Euro as the fault of some nobber in posh suit
Interesting how the nobbers in posh suits seem to think its the fault of the last labour government and never miss an opportunity to say so though.
and just 'cos daddy had money does not mean they are bright.
Very true - that's the role of the Eton entrance exam. Have a look at one:
Admittedly, this is a scholarship paper - but nonetheless, have a look and remember this is for 12 year olds. Then come back with, "they are not bright".
Thats right - if yo have the money you get in anyway. its not even a good rounded education FFS
Thats right - if yo have the money you get in anyway
How do you know this ?
The naked OE hate-fest is just another sort of prejudice or -ism.
Dont be ridiculous. I for one have no prejudice against those who attended school at Eton. Two of my favourite authors went there and i want an economic policy derived from the work of someone who attended school there. So i definitely dont have any sort of prejudice towards them for what school they went to - I dislike them because they are a bunch of cocks and i take that value judgement on their behaviour and actions as adults not what they did as children.
Now you are just being silly. There is an entrance exam, as in most independent schools. And while you are off work, have a holiday down south and take a trip to Eton. Have a walk around and then re-ask the same question.
Old Etonians like these guys have seriously warped sense of values - and just 'cos daddy had money does not mean they are bright.
How many Old Etonians do you know? This a perfectly serious question, so rather than doing your usual duck and weave, please answer. My betting is that you know none, and you're using the same bias you accuse others of
I know four OEs. Perhaps it's because I work in London, perhaps it's the industry...whatever, I know four people who happened to have gone to that school. To a man (yes, they're all men - sexist pigs obviously) they keep it quiet, because they realise the reaction they'll get. All are exceptionally bright, and all are, as far as I can see, well-adjusted individuals.
I'm completely certain there are some very unpleasant people who went to Eton; however, which school could you [i]not[/i] say that about?
I've actually changed my mind all this nasty minded poisonous vile bigotry can be put to a good use for the betterment of the economy.
All we need to do is pick a national hate figure (we'll pull a name from a hat, it's not very logical but hey that doesn't seem to stop anyone)
We can then have a national hate "Mick" (name picked at random) day and start a cottage industry making little effigies to burn, "fk you Mick" T-shirts and even STW special "I owned Mick with bombers T-shirts" therefore creating jobs, and saving the day.
At least then we can get on with actually trying to live our lives for the rest of the year without sulking about someone somewhere who's fault it is
"Mick"
Close - the "M" is right 😉
I have known two or three and I can see this attitude in the Government we have. Do we have to post the bullingdon club photo again?
They have a nasty sense of entitlement and have a very distorted sense of values. Did you see the Autumn statement from one of the nasty old Etonian toffs? No one with any reasonable sense of values would think that right and fair.
Unfortunately the blinkered attitude and the lack of perspective is shared by many. They simply have no ability to understand what its like not to come from the wealthy privileged elite
Unfortunately the blinkered attitude and the lack of perspective is shared by many. They simply have no ability to understand what its like not to come from the wealthy privileged elite
As im sure you have absolutely no idea what its like to come from their background....
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So tell me, TJ, where do you find this mythical person who knows everything outside his own experience etc? None of us can claim to understand all segments of society. We all have narrow and blinkered perspectives, almost by definition. That is not our fault, but how can it be otherwise?
Everyone is in some kind of elite. The value of education is to broaden our perspectives in order to challenge our lack of perspective and experience.
Where is the "real world", where are the people who have unlimited experience and unblinkered perspectives?Who are these people and how do we get them into civil service?
Unfortunately the blinkered attitude and the lack of perspective is shared by many.
Including those who persist in saying things like "nasty Old Etonian toffs"
Hate the government for what it is, hate Osborne for being pompous, but to beat up on people because of the school they went to is just daft.
As for that photo, what point are you trying to make? That they dressed up and looked stupid? Sure. That it makes them despicable individuals? Hardly.