MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
I'll try to be brief:
Individual works for company - gets company car. Individual leaves company - keeps company car.
Company wait for individual to sell car on, then report it stolen.
Police arrest & charge individual. Found guilty, wears a curfew tag for a few weeks, pays costs. No compensation ordered as he's skint.
I buy car then after a few weeks get knock on door from old bill saying it has been stolen. They caution me not to sell car or I'll be done for handling stolen goods.
Now company want car back as they haven't been compensated by the individual and I have goods that should never have been sold in the first place...
So the law has it that I'm financially responsible for a theft that someone else has profited from. I don't have any capital, can't afford more debt but do earn a decent amount - so long as I have transport.
Is it just me or is there something wrong here - I'd quite happily stay at home at night for 4 weeks to have a few grand put in my pocket....?
Did the seller have all the paperwork for the car?
he had a duplicate v5 but no purchase receipt
Bummer. Did you make sure everything was legit? Did it seem too good to be true?
FWIW - you can sue the person that sold it to you, for all the good that might do.
'Duplicate' V5?
Car was HPI clear as not reported stolen until after I bought it.
Duplicate V5 - anyone can get a V5 for any car for £25 - the DVLA just check with the previous keeper
It's a tough one to swallow but you've just been unlucky in that you inadvertently bought a stolen vehicle. In this instance the thieves have stolen from two people; money from you and a car from someone else.
A few years ago I was on the other side of this story. Had my car stolen, insurance said they would payout if the car wasn't recovered with a short period. About a week before the insurance were due to payout I get a call from Oxfordshire Police telling me that my car has been found. That weekend I go and collect my car whilst the person that bought it watched as what he considered to be his car was driven away leaving him out of pocket.
It was an old car and had been ragged to within an inch of its life and need considerable work to get it back to it's pre theft condition. So like you both I and the purchaser of the car lost out to thieves.
Can't say this episode ever made me think about the positives of a life of crime, if anything it made me very anti "knock off" anything.
So the V5 had the name of the person you bought it from and his address?
So the company registered it to him? Did they split the cash?
EDIT - clubber thinking along same lines as you
So really the issue here is that you need to take out a case against the person who you bought the car off?
clubber - yep have his address on both V5 and court extract. Not really interested in vigilante action if that's what you're thinking! And he has no money either.
at the very least id sign him up for plenty of junk mail
Ah, right, googling shows that V5 shows the keeper but doesn't prove ownership. Not sure how you check ownership then...
Can you go to court (small claims?) to recover the amount from the theif.
May be a pain in the arse, but better than just taking the hit, does he own his home etc? He may have assets that can be recovered from if you use the law.
Step 2: Checking the vehicle’s registration certificate (V5C)
Thieves can change a stolen vehicle and its paperwork to make it look like a real one (this is known as ‘cloning’).Hold the V5C up to the light – there should be a ‘DVL’ watermark.
Make sure the seller has the right to sell the vehicle. If the seller has had the vehicle for some time, they should have any of the following:
•a bill of sale (receipt)
•service records
•MOT certificate
[b]Remember, the V5C is not proof of ownership.[/b]
News to me TBH - so basically you need to see a receipt in the seller's name to show ownership.
How long had this car been known as being stolen?
This reads like someone stole the car, sold it to someone else who then sold it to you. Is that right?
And he has no money either.
He does have the money you gave him for the stolen car that he was selling.
[b]Talk to a solicitor.[/b] You've checked the V5, had an HPI check - what more can a reasonable person do? If you can demonstrate that you took precautions, you [i]might[/i] be OK. But get proper legal advice.
Think my main chance is from the person who sold it to me - but will probably involve small claims court and further financial risk. And because someone down the line stands to lose out completely it'll be contested every step of the way.
It's the principle as well though....I thought we were supposed to have the best legal system in the world but this just doesn't seem right.
I bet if I sold the car on, I'd get a far stiffer sentence that the original thief, AND get ordered to pay back the money.
muppetWrangler - the car came to me via about 4 different traders
you might be OK
Yes, you'd show that you didn't knowingly handle stolen goods. What it won't do though is stop him losing the car. If it's considered stolen then it'll be returned to its legal owner (the company) regardless.
Have you tried going back to HPi?
Don't they have a guarantee for this kind of thing?
I thought we were supposed to have the best legal system in the world but this just doesn't seem right.
What do you think should happen?
I bet if I sold the car on, I'd get a far stiffer sentence that the original thief, AND get ordered to pay back the money.
I doubt you'd get a stiffer sentence but you would have knowingly passed on stolen goods so yes you would have committed a crime.
muppetWrangler - the car came to me via about 4 different traders
When you say traders do you mean private traders or commercial traders and in what period of time? The bit I'm not getting is how long it take to show up on records as being stolen, seems like it may have gone through a lot of hands in a short space of time.
[edit]
I guess it doesn't really matter too much how the car got to you. You've been sold a dud and should get your money back off of the person that sold it to you, how they cover that isn't really your concern but I'd imagine they would then try and recover the money from the person that sold the car to them assuming they were genuine.
That sucks!
You could carry on the loop on and sell it on then claim its been stolen
Curfew tag for a few weeks, then home free 😉
with a lovely criminal record to boot...
muppetWrangler - went from orginal purchasing dealer to a 2nd hand car broker, to the dealer who sourced it to my request over the space of a couple of months.
I think the "victim" took their time reporting it as they pursued it as a civil matter until they realised he had sold the car on.
What do you think should happen?
For example in Scotland I understand this would all be between the victim and the perpetrator.
[i]He does have the money you gave him for the stolen car that he was selling.[/i]
HAD the money. It is pretty easy to make cash disappear if someone else wants it. He probably "lost it in the bookies" or some such tripe.
clubber - Memberwith a lovely criminal record to boot...
Badge of pride round these parts 😉
Again, might be worth checking out the HPi guarantee
Is it insured?
Didn't realise that about the V5 either!
I had a mate that bought a stolen car (20 years ago and Scottish law) iirc the car ownership was disputed as mate had bought in good faith and I think he bought car from insurance co for about half market value value (after car had sat in a yard for months) GET PROPER LEGAL HELP
If it were a private seller I might have been more sympathetic but as the car was bought from a dealer I would get yourself some proper legal advice and set about recovering your money straight away.
It seems a lot of problems could have been avoided if the original owners of the car hadn't dithered about reporting it stolen.
It seems a lot of problems could have been avoided if the original owners of the car hadn't dithered about reporting it stolen.
Indeed....
First call in the morning is Citizen's Advice Bureau to get to help with kicking off the Small Claims process. If they're rubbish and / or too slow then I'll have to lawyered up.
I think you need a lawyer rather than STW. It strikes me that if the police try to prosecute you they will also have to prosectute three other people for handling stolen goods and at least one of those people may be prepared to take the hit rather than have a criminal record. I bought a UK registered car in similar circustances and ended up with the car, no prosecution and nothing extra to pay.
Ah so you bought from a dealer. I think that's probably good news.
Found this which makes sense
http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=85261
The original company will still be the owner but you will be able to claim against the trader that sold you the car since they breached the contract with you (eg they didn't have the legal right to sell you the car). I'm assuming though that this will be outside small claims values so you need proper legal help. Does your insurance cover this - lots do even if you're not aware of it.
Southern Yeti - yep insured AND with legal cover but, guess what, they regard this as a "consumer issue" and won't get involved.
I must admit I wondered what would happen from a legal / ownership point of view if the car was written off whilst in my custody. Not for a moment suggesting that I would do anything to make this the case..
Best of luck to you. It really is crap getting turned over like this.
O/p are you a member of any motoring organisation, they provide legal cover
Too tired to give a detailed explanation but . not your car original owners car so it goes back , if you sell it on you commit theft so don't. The person who sold it to you didn't own it either so is in breach of his warrenty as to title ie breach of contract so he owes you every penny you paid . sue him, the small claims is quick and easy and cheap . for the value of a car the cost of getting a judgement debt is worth it even if the seller has no cash as they are likely to need a clear credit check at some point in life and so will want to pay it off some time.
Small claims is cheap and dead easy, so if the dealer won't refund you in full immediately, start small claims without any delay. the quicker you get things started. the quicker you get your money back.
google diy justice, or which guides to small claims.
if you get a small claim judgement against a dealer, you can send high court enforcement round to take carsaway and auction them to cover the money you're owed plus court costs etc. when I did this against a bunch of scumbags (hello derby car centre), the moment enforcement got there they paid in cash to avoid having their cars taken!
it really is very easy to do. I had to risk 200 quid total, but got it back along with two and a half grand I was owed!
don't piss around with anyone other than the person who sold you the car - they are who has to refund you.
Have you contacted the dealer who sold you the car? I would do that before considering legal action as if they are reputable they will refund you and pursue their loss from the broker etc down the chain.
If they are unhelpful I would contact the local press before taking the legal route. Most companies don't like bad press especially if it involves them fencing stolen goods.
Make sure the seller has the right to sell the vehicle. If the seller has had the vehicle for some time, they should have any of the following:•a bill of sale (receipt)
•service records
•MOT certificate
Remember, the V5C is not proof of ownership.
Neither a receipt or a service record or an MOT will give any details of who owns a car currently or who owned it at the time those documents were issued
If they are unhelpful I would contact the local press before taking the legal route. Most companies don't like bad press especially if it involves them fencing stolen goods
I wouldn't. i'd give them a chance to pay up, but if they weren't going to, i'd go straight onto the legal process, much more likely to get quick results and actual money as opposed to promises of money.
Nice that so many folk are smart after the event for you. ...
Just to say it takes a lot of shitty living to be the sort of scum who do get away far too easily with committing crime. So, yeah, it is worth being law abiding.
Dez B - cheers - that's a good way of looking at things. No, I don't want to be criminal scum. I'm still flabbergasted at how lightly he got off though...