[Closed] is the world MAD?? well scotland at least

There was a certain inevitability....

The Daily Mail demands it

🙄

Two wrongs don't make a right?

looks as though he was preventing a crime to me and therefore it was justified?

Good. Way OTT IMO, the kid was a bit of a dick, but he didn't threaten anyone or act aggressively. Big man deserves what he gets AFAIC.

The big man used force where there was no legal justification. Its a clear assault.

I am surprised his prosecution is considered in the public interest tho

I don't think BTP has much choice. There was an alleged offence; there was evidence that an offence may have taken place. There was sufficient media/public interest that they couldn't ignore it.

Arrested and charged is not the same as found guilty.

The procurator fiscal will need to decide if it is in the public interest to prosecute. Assuming they do, the court will then decide if an offence was committed. If the police don't do the first bit then they appear to be doing the judge's job for him.

I'm pleased to see that the "fare dodger" has also been reported, and thus can be dealt with by the judicial process rather than STW law!

fair dodging is hardly a crime when compared with assault.

fair dodging is hardly a crime when compared with assault.

True. I could understand someone fare dodging to stop an assault, but to commit assault to stop fare dodging?

The 'fare dodger' hasn't been charged with fare dodging, he has been reported for trespass and "threatening or ABUSIVE behavior"

I can however understand Bigman's actions... he probably just wanted to get home and the little scrote was stopping the train form going anywhere. doesn't make it right though.

trespass and abusive and threatening behaviour sounds more serious than fare dodging so it'll probably al work out just fine.

I wonder if he's jumped the barriers to get on to the train then?

I've just contacted my MSP:

A public spirited member of the public who intervened to help out a train conductor is now being charged with assault.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-16288101
/p>

We need the law changed to protect people who are acting in the public interest. They will not generally be aware of the minutae of regulation concerning their actions.

Samaritans should not be put to the sword.

As above, the actions of big lad were OTT, however I don't see how it is in the public's interest to prosecute him.
FWIW, I also think that more people need to stand up to little scrotes like the fare dodger - suddenly half a carriage all standing up and giving the lad a hard time would support the conductor and maybe persuade the lad it is not work doing.

epicyclo -where does it stop? should I be allowed to assault people who park illegally?

Samaritans should not be put to the sword.

If instead of a student, what if it had been an old man, or a 14 year old girl? Would his actions still make him a samaritan?

suddenly half a carriage all standing up and giving the lad a hard time would support the conductor and maybe persuade the lad it is not work doing.

Yes, everyone knows how persuasive a mob can be.

You expect to pay a fine if caught fare dodging. You don't expect to get chucked off a train by some fat guy. They're both in the wrong.

We need the law changed to protect people who are acting in the public interest

Ushering the guy off the train is one thing, throwing him to the platform is another......

Yup. Without getting all dailymailranty about it, there really is a serious lack of civic responsibility in the UK, and this is perhaps not the best result. As I mentioned in the other thread, my Ozzie mate is constantly amazed at what people will put up with here (phones blaring music on public transport, everyone just sitting and ignoring bad behaviour). She always says something, and the scrotes are usually so surprised at being confronted that they comply.

There was a fascinating prog on Radio 4 last year about this very subject - it really is a British phenomenon.

epicyclo -where does it stop? should I be allowed to assault people who park illegally?

Depends if you have decided some laws are ok to break in your head though i suppose... 🙂

I think Matt is correct - if the whole carriage showed a bit of unity and spoke out against the lad he'd might have had a change of heart.

The big guy shouldn't have done it. Manhandling someone off a train, resulting in injury (even if it's only a scratch)is assault. It's pretty plain to see what he did.

bottom line is that you can't assault people for being a dick, or rude. It's illegal.

Ushering the guy off the train is one thing,

epicyclo -where does it stop? should I be allowed to assault people who park illegally?

Oh ffs, not this again.

Not sure which thread is going to run with this but...

He's only been charged at this stage - not found guilty. Clearly the polis and CPS thought there was enough evidence to prosecute. A jury of his peers may find him not guilty yet.

I bet he's very grateful to the guy who took the video and posted it up (who, incidentally, came across as a smug little tosser when I heard him interviewed on the radio.)

EDIT: If not the CPS, then the PF. Not sure how it works up there in Scotchlandshire

whatnobeer - Member

epicyclo -where does it stop? should I be allowed to assault people who park illegally?

Oh ffs, not this again.

Its a serious point tho.

if this is acceptable then what is not?

We know its acceptable to use force to prevent violence - thats well known in law. this was a non violent crime but some folk think force is acceptable. so where do you draw the line?

bottom line is that you can't assault people for being a dick

Just as well, really. I'd be spending all day, every day, punching people 😀

...in self defence binners. 😀

Its a serious point tho.

I'll line 'em up! You knock em down DD 😉

if i could punch people holding up my journey then does that mean every bad driver i see i could go and punch? that's roadrage though and i'm pretty sure STW would class that as assault

just a thought 😀

Dog owners not controlling their dogs?

I am surprised his prosecution is considered in the public interest tho

Surely to not charge the big man with assualt would be to send a message that it's ok for anyone to use whatever physical force they feel like to sort out a situation they don't like, and if what you are doing is 'popular', you are clear to break the law?

He was abusive towards the staff, so I support the actions of 'big man'. If it were an old man or little girl sitting there being abusive, I'd not have an issue with doing the same (if they're abusive and struggle as much as the teenager did). If more people did this the world would be a better place in my opinion, far too may people happily sit idly by watching whilst a minority negatively impact everyone.

If more people did this the world would be a better place in my opinion, far too may people happily sit idly by watching whilst a minority negatively impact everyone

Sshhhh! Don't say that, everyone is going to frown at you and tut beneath their breath.

i have no issue with the carriage acting or someone acting but the force used was excessive and he did throw him to the ground- I will accpet the first as a stumble.

Doubt a jury will convict though tbh.. a warning would suffice and some info about what is and is not reasonable force

RLJ's should have bikes confiscated and crushed, I reckon and if they come up with a crappy excuse that its safer to RLJ chuck in a free flogging.

richc - Member
RLJ's should have bikes confiscated and crushed, I reckon and if they come up with a crappy excuse that its safer to RLJ chuck in a free flogging.

Thanks for sharing 😉

TandemJeremy - Member
epicyclo -where does it stop? should I be allowed to assault people who park illegally?

Come off it TJ (whatever it is), this is Scotland, where violence is quick and sudden.

I believe the big guy felt that an old man was in need of protection. This had all the hallmarks of a nasty incident about to kick off. If you think this is the same as illegal parking, oh dear.

Are you one of those who pull the curtains when you hear screams in the street?

and if what you are doing is 'popular', you are clear to break the law?

Actually, there is some value in considering this in the context of a civilised society. If we broadly accept that the fare dodger was sufficiently out of line to warrant being ejected, then maybe we have to accept that the ejection was hardly going to be gentle.

If we accept that, then we can then decide what level of subsequent injury (if any) to the fare dodger is acceptable. By "we", of course I mean lawmakers and the judiciary.

However, if we're too scared that might descend quickly into vigilantism, fair enough, but it's worth considering the possibility that the application of the current law (no, not sure how it's different in Scotland) can be altered in its application for the common good.

No epicylo - I actually intervened personally on a few occasions.

There was no credible that of violence in my opinion. even if there was restraint was all that was needed.

Epicyclo has a good point, when we watched it here we commented on just how much crap the ticket chap was meant to take from him. Frankly it was embarrassing how little courtesy the lad offered the man doing his job.

If my Dad got that crap off someone i would hope a 'big man' sorted something out. You can't just sit there sometimes when there is a numpty being a numpty.

Ignore the ticket thing and it is a lot clearer. One man sticking up for another cause the rest of the coach was too scared to.

I believe the big guy felt that an old man was in need of protection. This had all the hallmarks of a nasty incident about to kick off. If you think this is the same as illegal parking, oh dear.

I know right, have you seen the video? That student is sitting in that chair so threateningly like. Clearly someone was about to get glocked. That carriage is so lucky to have that fat guy there to throw the kid onto his face, I can only imagine the terror that would have ensued otherwise. Won't someone please think of the children?

I dont think anyone disagrees that the avoider was a tool or deserved something as consequences - removal from train without injury for example.
However because he is being a tool that does not mean you have the right to assualt him.

RM
Fingers crossed you survive the hell hole that is Student life....some says its worse than Iraq you know

I don't think BTP has much choice. There was an alleged offence; there was evidence that an offence may have taken place. There was sufficient media/public interest that they couldn't ignore it.

Arrested and charged is not the same as found guilty.

The procurator fiscal will need to decide if it is in the public interest to prosecute. Assuming they do, the court will then decide if an offence was committed. If the police don't do the first bit then they appear to be doing the judge's job for him.

Bullet points:
- He works in the public sector no?
- His employer may take disciplinary action based on an arrest?
- The boy is also charged. With what? Not having a train ticket? 😆 wow, scary. The bloke who was being held up with everyone else whilst a little shit swore at a man who is probably older than his Dad grabbed and threw him off the train has the potential to gain a criminal record.

Nice. So in future if you do a good deed, make sure you smash any mobile phones filming you.

I've seen the video. I also spent much of my younger life living around violent people in Scotland. That "youth" thought he had the upper hand and if the ticket guy had tried to remove him, I've no doubt he would not acted with restraint or respect for the ticket inspector's age, ie he would have been violent. Weasels are dangerous.

The big guy acted like a man. Obviously he did not have the finesse of a trained person, but if he wanted to hurt the ticket dodger he was more than capable of doing plenty more damage than he did.

If helping preserve public order by a samaritan like that is assault, then the law needs changing.

Bullet points:

They're not bullet points hora. I'd have thought you were in recruitment for long enough to recognise bullet points. 🙂

I saw nothing in what Big Man did in the video which could be seen as assualt. He did not punch the youth or persue him after he had been ejected from the train, how else to you eject someone that refuses to move?
I'm sure that the other passenger would have seen what happened off camera and the truth will come out. If the youth is found to have faked his injuries he should be charged for that too.

Nice. So in future if you do a good deed, make sure you smash any mobile phones filming you.

alternatively, just sit there and adopt the legally-correct but morally dubious high ground, tutting mildly under your breath because you (along with hundreds of passengers on one of the busiest lines in central Scotland) are inconvenienced by a single fare dodger. Never mind, Scotrail and the BTP will deal with it in record time...

cheers_drive - Member

I saw nothing in what Big Man did in the video which could be seen as assualt.

Touching without consent is assault. Grabbing, shoving, certainly is an assault.

You have a defense that is was necessary for a variety of reasons but I don't think any of them would apply

Epicyclo - there was no threat of violence from the faredodger - and like you I have lived most of my life in the big cities of Scotland and have intervened in violent situations.

I saw nothing in what Big Man did in the video which could be seen as assualt

Then you clearly aren't at all knowledgeable of the Law regarding Assault. I suggest reading up on such may be of educational benefit to you. And I mean this in a positive way, not trying to be rude.

I kinda slipped into a rant. So a valuable lesson has been learnt if you ever see a situation in Scotland. Sit there and keep quiet.

Saying that you wouldn't understand much thats been said.

epicyclo

If helping preserve public order by a samaritan like that is assault, then the law needs changing.

So I can use force to prevent illegal parking then? or littering? Or someone swearing on the street? or a bad driver who puts me at risk?

Touching without consent is assault.

It's a privilege in some parts of Manchester. 😀

[IMG] [/IMG]

Then you clearly aren't at all knowledgeable of the Law regarding Assault. I suggest reading up on such may be of educational benefit to you

better put that as a PSA then elfin, because i think a significant proportion of people watching that video wouldn't have classed it as assault.

i'm not saying its correct, but the letter of the law and its application are two different things.

So I can use force to prevent illegal parking then? or littering? Or someone swearing on the street? or a bad driver who puts me at risk?

yes, as long as its proportionate. if i've worded that badly, refer to any of the 35,000 times you've said it since dec 9th 🙂

I've seen the video. I also spent much of my younger life living around violent people in Scotland. That "youth" thought he had the upper hand and if the ticket guy had tried to remove him, I've no doubt he would not acted with restraint or respect for the ticket inspector's age, ie he would have been violent. Weasels are dangerous.

Didn't know you had the ability to read minds throw the medium of a crappy phone camera video.

I left the house at 7.30 in the morning and I'd only had my breakfast that day, and I hadn't slept the night before because I'd been studying for an exam.

I didn't realise until later but I thought I'd be able to explain what happened to the conductor on the train.

I was on my way home from my second exam when it happened. I'm diabetic and hadn't eaten all day so I was just desperate to get home. I wasn't given a chance to explain the ticket situation. The conductor just immediately said: "That's the wrong ticket. Off!"

I didn't even see the other guy coming. He lifted me up from behind and all I could see was chairs and the floor. He chucked me off and I landed right on my face. I tried to get back on to get my bag but I was shoved off again.

Did you get all that too?

TandemJeremy - Member
So I can use force to prevent illegal parking then? or littering? Or someone swearing on the street? or a bad driver who puts me at risk?

Crap analogy, and you know it.

That's what passes for foreplay around these parts Bravisimo 😉 In more civilised parts of the country, it may indeed be deemed assault!

Why is it a crap analogy? all non violent but antisocial offenses. If force is justified in the faredodgers case why not in the cases I describe?

Didn't know you had the ability to read minds throw the medium of a crappy phone camera video.

cuts both ways pal - only hindsight shows the weenuts didn't make the first move and that was only because bigman intervened first.

also, faredodgers account after the event and his behaviour in the video dont match up either. where are these fabled tickets? why is he clearly heard saying in the video that he has no money when he's claimed elsewhere that his money was in his bag?

It's a privilege in some parts of Manchester

Notice the Vulcan sex-grip that Binners applied?

RealMan - Member

Didn't know you had the ability to read minds throw the medium of a crappy phone camera video.

Did you get all that too?

Get a grip.

A bullshine story concocted after a few days of planning.

The little rat deserved to be physically removed from the train and I applaud the actions of the guy that's been charged. Hopefully all charges will be dropped against him.

RealMan, I'm not about to get into the rights and wrongs of it (again) but have you actually seen the video? That kid had ample opportunity to explain himself, but was nothing but obstructive, rude and mouthy.

better put that as a PSA then elfin, because i think a significant proportion of people watching that video wouldn't have classed it as assault.

I think it would be of benefit to society if a significant proportion of people who don't know the Law, actually bothered to find out what it sez, rather than interpret things as they see fit.

There's kind of good reasons why Laws exist, you know. I think quite a few folk have lost sight of this.

Crap analogy, and you know it.

Ok then; what about, right, if you see someone stopped at some lights or otherwise moving very slowly in their vehicle, whilst speaking on a mobile telephone?

Would it be ok to physically drag them out of the vehicle in order to prevent a possible more serious crime from taking place. I mean, they could be distracted then run over a small child cos they were too busy gabbing on the 'phone instead of driving with Due Care and Attention.

And surely, if you allow someone doing such a thing to just drive off, then you are complicit in any crime they may subsequently commit as a result of their unlawful actions?

agree user removed - the kids story does not really wash - unless the diabetic bit is true and diabetics can act oddly if hypo.

He had plenty of opportunity to explain if he wanted to. He thought he would be a smart arse and get away with it. I have no sympathy for him at all.

However being an objectionable mouthy git does not mean you can be assaulted with impunity

He chucked me off and I landed right on my face. I tried to get back on to get my bag but I was shoved off again.

😆

I suppose we should be glad he has been charged with assault - because we will eventually know who's right on whether it was assault or not when we get the verdict in a Court of Law.

Or maybe we should direct them to this thread to decide...

RealMan - Member
...Did you get all that too?

It may even be true, but it doesn't change what the situation looked like.

TandemJeremy - Member
...Epicyclo - there was no threat of violence from the faredodger - and like you I have lived most of my life in the big cities of Scotland and have intervened in violent situations.

Any chance of violence was nipped in the bud.

You coming to the 'Puffer this year? (Non sequitur)

OK perhaps I don't know what legally constitutes assualt, just what I consider assualt.
So every weekend bouncers assualt punters when ejecting them from bars, the ejection is a lot rougher than Big Mans and is usually on CCTV.
Or what about store security guard who runs after a shoplifter, apprehends them and then leads then back to the store by retraint. How is stealing a train fair different from stealing a bottle of whisky?

However being an objectionable mouthy git does not mean you can be assaulted with impunity

Maybe that's the problem? Just sayin' like

Don't think so Epicyclo. Not needed as support I don't think and not entered

Any chance of violence was nipped in the bud.

Is IMO his best defense.

but it doesn't change what the situation looked like [b]to me, sat at my computer watching it through a phone camera video[/b].

Any chance of violence was nipped in the bud.

So whenever there is, in your opinion, a probability greater then zero of violence happening, it is justified to use violence to possibly prevent it from happening?

You sound like you'd hit a guy in the face for looking at you lol.

Diabetic? He admitted he was pissed and slying back on home on the train.

Hes story has changed 4 times apparently.

Sadly, his Father sounds like more of a cock than him.

Did you look at my pints arse?

cheers_drive - Member

OK perhaps I don't know what legally constitutes assualt, just what I consider assualt.
So every weekend bouncers assualt punters when ejecting them from bars, the ejection is a lot rougher than Big Mans and is usually on CCTV.

Usually would have the right to remove people from the premises using minimum force as I would if someone broke into my house and again usually there would have been a violent act of threat of one

Or what about store security guard who runs after a shoplifter, apprehends them and then leads then back to the store by retraint. How is stealing a train fair different from stealing a bottle of whisky?

Its about using he minimum force which must be commensurate and proportionate.

so the worse the crime the more force is justified in restraining them and the greater the risk of violence the more force is justified.

So if the faredodger had swung a punch then the big man would have been onfar better ground. If the faredodger had produced a weapon then almost anything would have been acceptable

"There's kind of good reasons why Laws exist, you know. I think quite a few folk have lost sight of this."

LMAO.

So if the faredodger had swung a punch then the big man would have been onfar better ground. If the faredodger had produced a weapon then almost anything would have been acceptable

including an air strike? That would have been well cool!

Nuke 'em from space

Its the only way to be sure 😀