[Closed] is the world MAD?? well scotland at least

I've seen the video. I also spent much of my younger life living around violent people in Scotland. That "youth" thought he had the upper hand and if the ticket guy had tried to remove him, I've no doubt he would not acted with restraint or respect for the ticket inspector's age, ie he would have been violent. Weasels are dangerous.

The big guy acted like a man. Obviously he did not have the finesse of a trained person, but if he wanted to hurt the ticket dodger he was more than capable of doing plenty more damage than he did.

If helping preserve public order by a samaritan like that is assault, then the law needs changing.

Bullet points:

They're not bullet points hora. I'd have thought you were in recruitment for long enough to recognise bullet points. 🙂

I saw nothing in what Big Man did in the video which could be seen as assualt. He did not punch the youth or persue him after he had been ejected from the train, how else to you eject someone that refuses to move?
I'm sure that the other passenger would have seen what happened off camera and the truth will come out. If the youth is found to have faked his injuries he should be charged for that too.

Nice. So in future if you do a good deed, make sure you smash any mobile phones filming you.

alternatively, just sit there and adopt the legally-correct but morally dubious high ground, tutting mildly under your breath because you (along with hundreds of passengers on one of the busiest lines in central Scotland) are inconvenienced by a single fare dodger. Never mind, Scotrail and the BTP will deal with it in record time...

cheers_drive - Member

I saw nothing in what Big Man did in the video which could be seen as assualt.

Touching without consent is assault. Grabbing, shoving, certainly is an assault.

You have a defense that is was necessary for a variety of reasons but I don't think any of them would apply

Epicyclo - there was no threat of violence from the faredodger - and like you I have lived most of my life in the big cities of Scotland and have intervened in violent situations.

I saw nothing in what Big Man did in the video which could be seen as assualt

Then you clearly aren't at all knowledgeable of the Law regarding Assault. I suggest reading up on such may be of educational benefit to you. And I mean this in a positive way, not trying to be rude.

I kinda slipped into a rant. So a valuable lesson has been learnt if you ever see a situation in Scotland. Sit there and keep quiet.

Saying that you wouldn't understand much thats been said.

epicyclo

If helping preserve public order by a samaritan like that is assault, then the law needs changing.

So I can use force to prevent illegal parking then? or littering? Or someone swearing on the street? or a bad driver who puts me at risk?

Touching without consent is assault.

It's a privilege in some parts of Manchester. 😀

[IMG] [/IMG]

Then you clearly aren't at all knowledgeable of the Law regarding Assault. I suggest reading up on such may be of educational benefit to you

better put that as a PSA then elfin, because i think a significant proportion of people watching that video wouldn't have classed it as assault.

i'm not saying its correct, but the letter of the law and its application are two different things.

So I can use force to prevent illegal parking then? or littering? Or someone swearing on the street? or a bad driver who puts me at risk?

yes, as long as its proportionate. if i've worded that badly, refer to any of the 35,000 times you've said it since dec 9th 🙂

I've seen the video. I also spent much of my younger life living around violent people in Scotland. That "youth" thought he had the upper hand and if the ticket guy had tried to remove him, I've no doubt he would not acted with restraint or respect for the ticket inspector's age, ie he would have been violent. Weasels are dangerous.

Didn't know you had the ability to read minds throw the medium of a crappy phone camera video.

I left the house at 7.30 in the morning and I'd only had my breakfast that day, and I hadn't slept the night before because I'd been studying for an exam.

I didn't realise until later but I thought I'd be able to explain what happened to the conductor on the train.

I was on my way home from my second exam when it happened. I'm diabetic and hadn't eaten all day so I was just desperate to get home. I wasn't given a chance to explain the ticket situation. The conductor just immediately said: "That's the wrong ticket. Off!"

I didn't even see the other guy coming. He lifted me up from behind and all I could see was chairs and the floor. He chucked me off and I landed right on my face. I tried to get back on to get my bag but I was shoved off again.

Did you get all that too?

TandemJeremy - Member
So I can use force to prevent illegal parking then? or littering? Or someone swearing on the street? or a bad driver who puts me at risk?

Crap analogy, and you know it.

That's what passes for foreplay around these parts Bravisimo 😉 In more civilised parts of the country, it may indeed be deemed assault!

Why is it a crap analogy? all non violent but antisocial offenses. If force is justified in the faredodgers case why not in the cases I describe?

Didn't know you had the ability to read minds throw the medium of a crappy phone camera video.

cuts both ways pal - only hindsight shows the weenuts didn't make the first move and that was only because bigman intervened first.

also, faredodgers account after the event and his behaviour in the video dont match up either. where are these fabled tickets? why is he clearly heard saying in the video that he has no money when he's claimed elsewhere that his money was in his bag?

It's a privilege in some parts of Manchester

Notice the Vulcan sex-grip that Binners applied?

RealMan - Member

Didn't know you had the ability to read minds throw the medium of a crappy phone camera video.

Did you get all that too?

Get a grip.

A bullshine story concocted after a few days of planning.

The little rat deserved to be physically removed from the train and I applaud the actions of the guy that's been charged. Hopefully all charges will be dropped against him.

RealMan, I'm not about to get into the rights and wrongs of it (again) but have you actually seen the video? That kid had ample opportunity to explain himself, but was nothing but obstructive, rude and mouthy.

better put that as a PSA then elfin, because i think a significant proportion of people watching that video wouldn't have classed it as assault.

I think it would be of benefit to society if a significant proportion of people who don't know the Law, actually bothered to find out what it sez, rather than interpret things as they see fit.

There's kind of good reasons why Laws exist, you know. I think quite a few folk have lost sight of this.

Crap analogy, and you know it.

Ok then; what about, right, if you see someone stopped at some lights or otherwise moving very slowly in their vehicle, whilst speaking on a mobile telephone?

Would it be ok to physically drag them out of the vehicle in order to prevent a possible more serious crime from taking place. I mean, they could be distracted then run over a small child cos they were too busy gabbing on the 'phone instead of driving with Due Care and Attention.

And surely, if you allow someone doing such a thing to just drive off, then you are complicit in any crime they may subsequently commit as a result of their unlawful actions?

agree user removed - the kids story does not really wash - unless the diabetic bit is true and diabetics can act oddly if hypo.

He had plenty of opportunity to explain if he wanted to. He thought he would be a smart arse and get away with it. I have no sympathy for him at all.

However being an objectionable mouthy git does not mean you can be assaulted with impunity

He chucked me off and I landed right on my face. I tried to get back on to get my bag but I was shoved off again.

😆

I suppose we should be glad he has been charged with assault - because we will eventually know who's right on whether it was assault or not when we get the verdict in a Court of Law.

Or maybe we should direct them to this thread to decide...

RealMan - Member
...Did you get all that too?

It may even be true, but it doesn't change what the situation looked like.

TandemJeremy - Member
...Epicyclo - there was no threat of violence from the faredodger - and like you I have lived most of my life in the big cities of Scotland and have intervened in violent situations.

Any chance of violence was nipped in the bud.

You coming to the 'Puffer this year? (Non sequitur)

OK perhaps I don't know what legally constitutes assualt, just what I consider assualt.
So every weekend bouncers assualt punters when ejecting them from bars, the ejection is a lot rougher than Big Mans and is usually on CCTV.
Or what about store security guard who runs after a shoplifter, apprehends them and then leads then back to the store by retraint. How is stealing a train fair different from stealing a bottle of whisky?

However being an objectionable mouthy git does not mean you can be assaulted with impunity

Maybe that's the problem? Just sayin' like

Don't think so Epicyclo. Not needed as support I don't think and not entered

Any chance of violence was nipped in the bud.

Is IMO his best defense.

but it doesn't change what the situation looked like [b]to me, sat at my computer watching it through a phone camera video[/b].

Any chance of violence was nipped in the bud.

So whenever there is, in your opinion, a probability greater then zero of violence happening, it is justified to use violence to possibly prevent it from happening?

You sound like you'd hit a guy in the face for looking at you lol.

Diabetic? He admitted he was pissed and slying back on home on the train.

Hes story has changed 4 times apparently.

Sadly, his Father sounds like more of a cock than him.

Did you look at my pints arse?

cheers_drive - Member

OK perhaps I don't know what legally constitutes assualt, just what I consider assualt.
So every weekend bouncers assualt punters when ejecting them from bars, the ejection is a lot rougher than Big Mans and is usually on CCTV.

Usually would have the right to remove people from the premises using minimum force as I would if someone broke into my house and again usually there would have been a violent act of threat of one

Or what about store security guard who runs after a shoplifter, apprehends them and then leads then back to the store by retraint. How is stealing a train fair different from stealing a bottle of whisky?

Its about using he minimum force which must be commensurate and proportionate.

so the worse the crime the more force is justified in restraining them and the greater the risk of violence the more force is justified.

So if the faredodger had swung a punch then the big man would have been onfar better ground. If the faredodger had produced a weapon then almost anything would have been acceptable

"There's kind of good reasons why Laws exist, you know. I think quite a few folk have lost sight of this."

LMAO.

So if the faredodger had swung a punch then the big man would have been onfar better ground. If the faredodger had produced a weapon then almost anything would have been acceptable

including an air strike? That would have been well cool!

Nuke 'em from space

Its the only way to be sure 😀

Haven't got time to read the whole thread, so apologies if this has already been pointed out...

Bear in mind that in Scotland the process is different to England & Wales - so the fact that he's been charged by BTP doesn't mean he'll be prosecuted.

E&W - police gather evidence > evidence considered by CPS > CPS decide to prosecute or not (based on quality of evidence and public interest > if CPS decide to prosecute police are told to charge him.

Scotland - police gather evidence > if sufficient evidence to suggest an offence might have been committed then police charge him > report goes to PF > PF decides whether to prosecute or not (based on quality of evidence and public interest > if PF decides to prosecute then PF office cites the individual, otherwise NFA

So in this instance it's still not yet been decided by the PF whether the big man will be prosecuted.

hora - Member

- The boy is also charged. With what? Not having a train ticket? wow, scary. The bloke who was being held up with everyone else whilst a little shit swore at a man who is probably older than his Dad grabbed and threw him off the train has the potential to gain a criminal record.

1. He's not been charged, he has been reported to the Fiscal, who will decide if there is enough evidence to charge him.

2. He's not been charged with failing to have a ticket. He's been reported for trespass (presumably "on the railway"; i.e. refusing to leave when told to) and abusive behaviour. The fiscal is presumably waiting for the conclusion of this thread with eager anticipation!

TJ - However being an objectionable mouthy git does not mean you can be assaulted with impunity

I have to say that the most odious character to come out of this is the chap who took the video in the first place.

I saw him being interviewed on BBC breakfast and he came across as an evil smug little f#cker. exactly the sort that eggs people on into fights for his own cowardly titilation.

IMO, no punches were thrown, there was no intent to physically harm, he was just trying to help the young chap off the train and the he tripped or wasn't very stable on his feet due to being pissed...

I set 'em up Poly 🙂

I wonder how much the press have been responsible for the outcome so far as well. It seemed to have started with the kid being a bit pissed off but admitting it was a fair cop and enjoying his moment of fame on facebook. The train got to move and everyone got on with their lives.

Then once the dad was tracked down there starts to be talk of charges being pressed - without the dad presumably realising that his kid would also of course get charged and now rather than the whole thing being over, even if not necessarily legally correctly, it is only just starting. Pretty crap result for everyone other than the papers really

The youth was told by the ticket inspector to leave the train, he refused this and responded with verbal abuse.
This then made him an 'undesirable'(should be in terms and conditions booklet)and as such, the undesirable can be ejected(using reasonable force) from public transport.
The fact the undesirable put up resistence to being removed, caused him to get a little scratch.
The big guy did not throw punches or kick the undesirable, so what is the limit of reasonable force?

i bet the guy who filmed it is feeling pretty special about now. it's unlikely this would have gone anywhere without his footage.

I bet he was filming on an I phone too.

It would be funny if big man was not charged and fare dodger got done, I suspect that would be a great outcome for common sense.