I think we should do more, but that will mean Government spending your hard earned as taxes.
I think one of the biggest issues we have as a nation is this disconnect between what people want from a government and what they're willing to give up to achieve it. If you ask people what they want from a government they invariably put better public services near or at the top of the list. And yet raising taxes to do that is widely seen as political death.
I think we should do more, but that will mean Government spending your hard earned as taxes.
TBH they could spend more time/manpower and effort investigating the rich tax avoiders.
They also need to invest in the future,some things aren’t a waste of money and need to be done, they can always find the money.
But if your privately educated with private health insurance and and access to private planes it not like any of this affects you.
TBH they could spend more time/manpower and effort investigating the rich tax avoiders.
Whenever raising taxes is mentioned it gets deflected by discussion of the wealthy tax avoiders. I'd very much like to see that group getting nailed but I'm also quite happy to put my hand in my own pocket.
It sounds like it’s poor Labour management though (just for balance) that has caused the issues in Birmingham
Mostly to do with the equal pay case which has been rumbling on for years which plus the spending cuts wiped out their reserves.
Doesnt seem like they have been going in for dodgy investments unlike Thannock and co.
On a broader note whilst the tories since 2010 turbocharged it the problems have been building up for way beyond that. The selling vital assets cheap is going to bite us more and more.
The problem with Tory capitalism is that sooner or later you run out of public assets to sell off cheap to your mates.
I think one of the biggest issues we have as a nation is this disconnect between what people want from a government and what they’re willing to give up to achieve it. If you ask people what they want from a government they invariably put better public services near or at the top of the list. And yet raising taxes to do that is widely seen as political death.
A real Labour opposition has the chance to make the case for more but fairer taxation in order to provide the services people want/need. Pay in to get out. It's not as unpopular as you'd think.
TBH they could spend more time/manpower and effort investigating the rich tax avoiders.
The government that was recently criticised for not releasing HMRCs resourcing requests to the Public Accounts Committee?
Starts at the top and permeates to the bottom, our politicians have become progressively more corrupt and useless, hopefully Johnsom was the low point but im not holding my breath. The morribund attitude though permeates through the whole public sector, people have got used to not achieving or changing anything, its the norm.
My question is where has all the money gone? Tax burden on most of us is higher than ever, VAT is up, council tax is up, tax thresholds have dropped in real terms dramatically.
I think social & health care in its many guises is crippling the country, we have so many economically inactive people, many with additional needs, and not wnough resources to support them to the level people have come to expect (not just money but people willing and suited to caring for others).
I dont really know what the answer is and nor do the politicians which is why they arent acting on it. Managing peoples expectations is going to be highly unpopular, especially after the pipe dream fed to people for years.
Anyway before we can tackle the real challenges we need to make headway against the self imposed screw ups of Brexit and grossly incompetant and self serving government. We need to ditch the distraction politics of small boats, Brexit and what ever other silly 'promises' Sunak made to gain a few headlines.
I do think Labour understand the mountain in front of them, talking to the Labour candidate for my area recently they were under no illusion of the issues. Looks like Starmer had to sort out the internalissues in the Labour party created by Corbyn before he had a hope of doing something country wide. Sounds like most of the clearing hiuse has ben done now.
Third world, get a grip, no where near, were not even close to Russian standards and I'd say were in a much better position than countries like Greece.
How you feel about it may depend on where you live, some UK regions definitely wealthier, than others. In those wealthier areas the retreat of the state may be less obvious whereas it's more clear cut in poorer areas. some things - RAAC for example as an indicator of lack of investment in state education cut over into those wealthier areas. London stands apart from the UK on many indicators - much more wealthy (on average) with public transport investment that many other regions can only dream off (notwithstanding some big pockets of deprivation in London).
Italy may be a parallel - relatively poor south and relatively wealth north. But the level of day to day corruption during Italy's darkest days much much worse than currently we see in UK (yes there's people at top of society hosepiping public funds into their pockets but by and large UK coppers don't ask you for £50 to get off a traffic offence)
Not third-world at all. Just a gradual (well with a few big kicks along the way) slide towards a more American system. Like them, we have the money to look after everyone here, and welcome new arrivals… but there’s political capital and lots of money to be made from “letting people look after their own”… in both senses. When being helped is “scrounging”, and when you can blame the removal of that help on people born elsewhere… you have a way to stop the “big state” making all our lives better and open up endless opportunities for “investment” in making things more expensive and less universal.
It is simply just a more expensive place to live while also being not such a good place to live.
This. I’ve returned recently from Barbados where the political and infrastructure issues are UK x 100. The corrupt government was outvoted and replaced 6 years ago. Changes have started - interrupted by the pandemic and a retraction of tourism monies, but they have worse issues. There are whole townships with crumbling water mains, the B roads are a mess you cannot imagine although the highways have started to be resurfaced, hotel and housing building work is paused because interest on loans are too expensive, bus fares and food prices have doubled, people are driving in cars with missing doors etc etc.
It’s an island with little to no manufacturing export therefore reliant on tourism and imports, is very expensive to live and requires - and now has - a skilled government focused on the people and island itself. Having this discussion in Barbados with a local, his comment to me was “UK is the same as us in 2017, corrupt, self serving government with minimal relevant strategic investment yet unlike us it does not know how to act like an island it’s just become”. He went on to say that while we were influenced and supported by Europe, Barbados is trying the same with the US and Chinese with the latter not being popular yet the public understand they need borrowed investment and cheaper import tariffs to survive.
We are a long way from the 3rd world and have all of the global connections we need to run the country efficiently. We just need a leadership that’s capable and focused to do so.
It’ll probably be another 15 years before the island is back up to 2010 standards, so this indicative 20-25 period is likely the same as we need to sort out our problems. As a more modern country closer to Europe, we do have the ability to sled that up if there’s a will to do so.
The biggest council in the country has just declared itself bankrupt. 20 more are said to be on the brink of doing the same
I’d say that’s the very definition of a failed state
If thats your definition of a failed state you're in for a helluva shock if we ever do become a failed state.
Not third world or failing, no. However it's becoming a poorer country with some (vastly) wealthy areas rather than a wealthy country with a few poor areas.
The short-term "make do and mend" attitude coupled with austerity and ever more obvious corruption form those in charge has really knocked us back down the ladder.
I reckon peak Great Britain recently was 2012.
Out of curiosity, did I miss a recent thread about the UK now being forecast to avoid recession ... ?
The problem is, that as a nation the population as a whole doesn't ever live in another country. This removes the ability to form a sound judgement of what the standard of living is in other countries, out judgements are based on our perceptions and influences.
We realised how bad the UK was when we returned from living in Germany in 2016. It took years to get over how bad the country is and it has continued to decline!
There is reason that we are called 'The Island Monkeys' by the Germans. They laugh at how bad it is here when they do their secondments......
Whenever raising taxes is mentioned it gets deflected by discussion of the wealthy tax avoiders. I’d very much like to see that group getting nailed but I’m also quite happy to put my hand in my own pocket.
TBH been paying taxes for a long time and what is being delivered from it seems to be way worse than it was.
It’s not deflection……
The problem is, that as a nation the population as a whole doesn’t ever live in another country. This removes the ability to form a sound judgement of what the standard of living is in other countries, out judgements are based on our perceptions and influences.
Very much this.
We can sit in the North Atlantic crowing about Two World Wars and One World Cup, shouting Rule Britannia and dreaming about the Empire days but we've stood still since the 70's, in our own little bubble of grandeur while the rest of the world has moved on.
Meanwhile our perceptions of the French and Germans are based on innumerable war films from the 50's onwards plus a bit of Dad's Army, Allo Allo and Fawlty Towers. 🙄
That was in spite of our EU membership, its got a lot worse in the few short years that we've left.
I think leaving the EU was just speeding the decline up a little faster, it’s death by a thousand paper cuts, once they got the people used to ‘austerity’ there was no going back.
There’s only so much underfunding you can get away with.
I think leaving the EU was just speeding the decline up a little faster
Yup. Ultimately it was a symptom and not a cause. Despite the simple minded explanation its telling how many people voted for it believing it would improve things. Obviously a lie but it played into how people were seeing everything decline.
As for 2012 being a peak. That was just a plaster over the top of long term damage.
3rd World?
Nope, nowhere near, not based on my experience of working in the best part of 50 countries around the world.
But.
Folk need to look at the bigger picture, what we are going through though is 'just' the decline of the British Empire, and it's been going on for over 100 years now. Previous Empires across the world went through the same process, some disappeared in just a few years, some decades and others took centuries.
I go back to my Brexit statement, "Brexit wasn't the destination, it was the vehicle". What occurred was that a 'collective' decided that they didn't want the UK to continue on its Western European social democracy journey but to aim for something more like the 'conservatism' that's been prevalent in the US since Reagan - and this is now our journey.
Where it 'ends' I've no idea but I can definitely see the difference in the country & society over my life-time (born mid-60's), and it's not positive for 95% of UK citizens IMO - and neither is the USA for the majority of its citizens either, but still millions vote for a sh1tter life for themselves & their families.
I think a few of you need to go and spend some time in a third world country to get a healthy dose of perspective, there is a reason people risk their lives in a small, unsafe boats to come to the UK.
Yes parts of the country country could run better but comparing it to the third world shows what a tiny little (first world) bubble people live in.
Better position than countries like Greece
From where I’m sitting (Greece, as it ‘appens) it’s hard to agree with that.Apart from the obvious issues like food in the shops, functioning bureaucracy, clean public toilets, there are other advantages to being here, like that MrsJ can get the medical care she needs (but can’t get on the NHS in any sensible timescale) at an affordable price. At home we have to wait months for a dental check up (even on Denplan). Yes, there are problems, but it’s a long way from the place you used to come for a cheap holiday in the 80’s.
As others say, bit dramatic, think the rose tinted spectacles are from the past, as it's always been pretty much the same as it is in terms of standard of living, it's just that we're living longer, in poorer health and the model we follow has had to change to try and suit that, which is costing us more now, cheap credit has also led us to high property prices, personal debt and so on, to allow that global credit machine to keep going year on year.
Councils have always been badly run as well, yes some good ones, but a lot of bad ones, when i worked around a council 25 years ago it was just weird to watch, they were always increasing office jobs, and cutting service jobs, they wanted to outsource as much as they could, without understanding the long term cost and impact of this, inside it was full of nepotism, cronyism and so on, we can try and blame Brexit, the Tories, the rich, but for me it's just people that let it all down, and i dare say we still have the same, or maybe even more people who are just in it for their own and their cronies interests, using buckets of public funding to do it with.
I do believe Brexit and so on have had a huge effect on us, but seeing the same issues in France, Germany, etc means you have to put a bit more focus on the underlying issues, same with political parties, you're just swapping one lot of politicians with their mates, with another.
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In the same way Brits refer to the French as frogs and the Germans as Krauts?
if I could persuade the missus to leave I'd have gone. downward spiral for sure
I do not believe the answer is to raise tax on paye. certainly not lower and mid tiers.
I will be happt to pay more tax when I see inefficiency, corruption and profiteering tackled
just an example, Birmingham has spent hundreds of millions on an IT project. why is stuff like this not a centralised government service provider to LAs? they all do the same job after all. the amount of duplication and waste, coupled with large suppliers taking candy from babies is a reciepe for huge unnecessary cost.
think a few of you need to go and spend some time in a third world country to get a healthy dose of perspective, there is a reason people risk their lives in a small, unsafe boats to come to the UK.
True, but it’s also informative to spend some time in another European country and see how much better things could be in the UK, and why most refugees actually don’t risk their lives to come here and choose to stay elsewhere.
How you feel about it may depend on where you live
Yes, I have relatives in the South (Buckinghamshire) and on a visit to London from Manchester where I live a couple of weeks ago, the wealth disparity is plain to see.
looking forward to some percy pigs.
Edit: oh….. and seeing family.
Good to see priorities!
Poverty is not the same thing the world over.
No it's not but if those children are facing a struggle to have enough food every day then however much income the family unit has is obviously not enough despite it (the income) being many times that of sub-Saharan Africa. We're at the stage where the poor are not struggling to afford nice things, they are struggling to stay fed and housed. It is an embarrassment for such a rich country to engineer itself into this situation.
I believe that "First world Country" has a few requirements, the No1 of which is Socialised healthcare.
the USA is "50 third world countries in a trench coat"*, and if the tories get their way we will be joining them.
Maybe not "third world", but certainly Second
*- suggesting the like of the USA and the UK are "third world" undermines recognition the difficulties of actual "third world countries". the USA and UK are not in need of financial aid and external support, as some countries are.
after the back of covid/lockdown/ukraine war / high inflation/CofL
it seems miserable, the government [voted in by the brexit at all costs voter, who really didnt understand the big picture short term consequences] are continuing to firefight issues that the media are adamant is all their fault,
this latest news scare story has been known about for years, no contingency planning, by successive governments.
the cons austerity is coming back to bite, but isnt it the local authority/ diocese/trust responsible for maintenance. it seems anything goes wrong its rishi sunaks fault at the moment.
cant see that wet lettuce starmer doing alt..
some people are certainly getting rich off the back of public sector / schools etc.
is it me or does £100k for a replacement lightning conductor sound a bit expensive for a school. as quoted by a school trustee on Stephs packlunch yesterday, i remember why i dont watch daytime tv
Its in terminal decline for sure but "Failed State," "Banana Republic" etc aren't labels that apply to the UK.
The biggest problems have been austerity, under (or complete lack of) investment, moderate government and boardroom corruption (contracts-for-mates, siphoning off profits to offshore accounts etc) and the sheer economic stupidity of Brexit but the UK is still by and large a society which respects fairness and the rule of law.
Apart from a once in a generation project of massive public borrowing and spending along the lines of Roosevelt's New Deal, I don't see any other way to stem the decline, but there seems to be no political will for such a project.
Anyone on here who thinks the UK is, or is becoming a third world country is showing themselves up as arrogant and self-entitled, in my opinion. To even consider that there are equivalencies between the like of Sudan, Bangladesh, Zimbabwe etc is crass, and demeans the issues faced by many other countries.
The OP said 'is the UK becoming a third world country' not is it now a third world country.
Personally I think it's a long way to go before it reaches that level. Having said that, there can be no denial that it is a country in decline and the decline seems to be getting worse almost on a daily basis.
You can't 'become' a third world country. That term has a specific definition.
We are backsliding a lot, but we still don't fit the definitions of failed state or third world.
The short answer to the OP's question is: NO. However, people are living what they've collectively voted for:
the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer
less state so less services
less/no tax on those most able to pay so less in the pot
being cut off from their most imortant trading partners
an erosion of rights
no accountability for those in power
The ability to lie and manipulate with impunity in the name of freedom of speech
Democracy is great innit, those with the means can appeal to the lowest instincts of fools to make fools of the fools.
is it me or does £100k for a replacement lightning conductor sound a bit expensive for a school.
Ooh, you know what? This sentiment is actually a major problem we have in the UK right now. Apologies if this is incorrect, but you appear to be an average punter hearing a number and going 'ooh that's a lot of money' but unless you're an architect or engineer you really have no idea. Knowledgeable people who do stuff are under siege all the time from people who say 'oh that's a lot of money, can't you do it for less?' and we end up forced to do things on the cheap all the time just because no-one respects our knowledge, skill and experience.
This is a major reason why everything is shit. At all levels, everyone doing stuff is under massive pressure to do it on the cheap. We try to tell our bosses and our customers what the right thing to do is but they don't listen, they just think we're a bunch of nerds fretting about nerdy stuff and we can be ignored.
Having worked in a few other countries, the biggest difference in places that are known for competence in engineering is that people ****ing listen to engineers.
The UK is manifestly not a 3rd world country (do people still use that phrase??). It is however an excellent example of a country with a dysfunctional neo-liberal market economy, much like the US, where the end result is little or no investment in public services and infrastructure. The result is crumbling roads, schools, hospitals, bankrupt councils, leaking water pipes and shit in our rivers. It's all a result of not spending money on the things we all benefit from and could very easily be fixed.
You want to see a '3rd world country', go and have a look at Sri Lanka or one of the many other places where the electricity grid regularly goes down, there is no runnning water and where basic food stuffs disappear from the shops.
You can’t ‘become’ a third world country. That term has a specific definition.
Can you expand on this please- surely the stereotype has rendered the original definition obsolete?
I still think that the majority have a far better standard of life in the UK than 40, 50 60 years ago, and not far off that of pre 2008, which is where my rose tints seem strongest. Sure things have been at the least unsettled post Brexit but I don't think that as a country it's yet enough to draw a long term trend.
pretty obvious that the UK is not a third world country but it certainly is a rapidly declining first world one. A country of proliferating potholes.
just an example, Birmingham has spent hundreds of millions on an IT project. why is stuff like this not a centralised government service provider to LAs?
Have you seen how poorly central government handles IT purchase? The costs would run into billions for something not fit for purpose due to the minister of the day changing the contract specs as a result of whatever is flavour of the week in the press. We sold our IT procurement department during the first rush of privatisations and lost all our central expertise as the civil servant were offered suitcases of money to work in the newly formed private sector agency.
The country got left with the dross and we're now at the point where supposedly educated people insist that encryption can be by-passed to "protect the children" without damaging banking and other sectors needing secure communications. A clue mathematics will not allow this ever.
@molgrips is it an engineer quoting this price or is it a dodgy sales man, who thinks **** it I'll give them a crazy price and see what happens, from my own experience of getting quotes of tradesmen (i) Prices/(ii) job time/(iii) quality
can be dramatically wild.
and yes in my own work people think things can take a few hours, when it could take weeks and they are forever badgering, but then again, other things i can do in ten-fifteen minutes that colleagues may takes weeks over.
experience and recommendations count for a great deal.
"I think a few of you need to go and spend some time in a third world country to get a healthy dose of perspective"
This this this. And staying in a holiday resort for a couple of weeks doesn't count.
Slightly off-topic:
A few people have said that the UK might be a 'second world country'. I was taught that the 'three world' idea wasn't just about wealth but also about systems. A child born at the time could be born into one of three worlds which would dictate what their life would be like:
Capitalist
Communist
Developing
or a slightly different version:
US and allies
USSR and allies
Non-aligned
I think the current schools concrete crisis is the UK in a nutshell.
30 years ago it looked quite good, 10 years ago it was crumbling at the edges, now it's crumbling everywhere.
The biggest council in the country has just declared itself bankrupt. 20 more are said to be on the brink of doing the same
I can't see why the press are even bothering to focus on Birmingham..
Budget gap of £87m and population 1.15M people is small change.
Our council owes £1.12 Billion and growing (£2.1B next year) with a population of 100,000
FFS we owe an order of magnitude more in absolute terms let alone per capita.
High school geography tells us why comparing single indicators (GDP p/c in this case) is misleading. If you look at the HDI rankings the UK is above the USA as a whole.
Ultimately GDP/cap is not only misleading but highly damaging over any time period in any state with a balance of payments deficit.
Ultimately we are over spending as a country but like my council on things we don't actually need living in a fantasy shaped by special interest groups...and people who are looking for quick profit and or nepotism.
Take a typical STW moan about cycle paths.. drain covers and such.
Why doesn't my 2.4" DD with sealant suffer the same fate as these people demand .. ??
Could it be they need to ride a bike suitable for the cycle paths not demand to make cycle paths somewhere to ride their bike with skinny tyres? If it takes a bit longer then set off earlier ???
Don't misunderstand if we had an infinite amount of money and resources by all means spend some of this excess money on better cyclepaths... but with the roads in the state they are it's demanding something the majority would rather see elsewhere.
The same can be said of the NHS... it has simultaneously expanded to cater to special interests whilst cutting out the majority on basic healthcare and made paying over the market price for anything but its actual staff an art form.
Not that these are not all good causes with infinite money.. but why are the NHS for example paying for IVF when it can't afford life saving operations and people are dying on waiting lists.
Non of these "wouldn't it be nice" services are individually to blame, rather it is each of these chipping away at the basic services.
All this is underlain by the continued lie that "We are rich because of our GDP" ... spending money you don't have on luxuries doesn't make anyone rich.
I started off mentioning my council debt and nepotism.
We have I think 12 of these statues now... £12-14,000 each apparently and their only purpose is to line the pockets of the artist who is a family member of one of the former councillors and for them to get their kickbacks. Their unintended purpose being to scare children and even many adults... but this by a council that makes the debt of Birmingham look like small change and to add insult to injury we the council tax payers pay for the council to pay an advertising agency (I'm sure they are family/friends) another £110,00 a year to tell those who don't want them they "need to be taught how to appreciate art" or should move elsewhere if they don't like it.
Even if these were in any way nice they are at best a luxury and the poor shouldn't be being forced to pay for luxuries for the rich.
Scale that up and that is exactly why we are becoming one of the poorest nations on earth.
