I’m not belittling the huge issues many are facing, but there are lots of places in the world where it’s far worse.
Although a lot of places where you find the really poor are quite warm countries - where freezing to death isn't on the cards....
This is a good read on the subject of how the global poor are getting less poor year on year...
had improved slightly to 6 out of 10 by 2016…
There's various ways to cook up the data, GDP per Capita is not a great one.
What’s your point Molgrips? People are becoming more boring?
You might be on to something actually. There used to be a pub on every street. So buying coffee away from home is a social event? Well you live and learn. They must be doing a roaring turnover of covers then. If one goes to the pub you generally have between three and nine drinks and stay a few hours to the whole night. These coffee shops are generally only open during the day. So millions of small-ticket, coffee and cake orders. 🤔
This is a good read on the subject of how the global poor are getting less poor year on year…
Looks like an interesting read, i will get a copy, thanks 👍
Looks like an interesting read, i will get a copy, thanks 👍
It is a brilliant book!
I was reading something somewhere as few weeks ago about income disparity. I can’t remember the exact numbers but in much of Europe the ratio between the richest X% and the median income was 3:1, in the UK it’s now 1:4 in the US its 1:6. The US may have tbe highest mean incomes but it also has huge wealth inequality. All I see is this government trying to push this country the same way.
It is a brilliant book!
Ordered! 🙂
I’ll believe the UK is poor/in a recession/struggling with the cost of living when I see even slightly fewer coffee shops/cafes.
there's significant lag between people buying less coffee and a cafe running out of money/shutting down. I'd estimate 6 months. So whilst its a reasonable indicator, its a lagging one (as much of the economy is) so its hard to use as an identifier of a problem
All I see is this government trying to push this country the same way.
This will always be the end product of our late stage capitalist dystopia. In the end the world will be burning but they'll still be those around that are pleased they managed to create good value for their shareholders.
Factfullness is a magnificent book! I wish everyone would read it, and think about it, and talk about it with their families and friends. And MPs.
It really does help you understand the world.
Factfullness is a magnificent book! I wish everyone would read it, and think about it, and talk about it with their families and friends. And MPs.
It really does help you understand the world.
A ringing endorsement. The last book I read that had that kind of profound impact on me was '21 Lessons for the 21st Century' by Yuval Noah Harari. Sapiens and Home deus by him were really good too. What I particularly liked about 21 Lessons and am hoping for from Factfulness, is a sprinkling of hope and optimism amongst the never ending hopelessness and doom mongering which surrounds us.
We went to Bath a couple months ago, and we're surprised at the disparity between the have's and have-nots, quite shocking to say the least.
In world terms, we're still rich and everyone has a decent standard of living.
The UK (for everybody) is still better than Ethiopia, Eritrea, Afghanistan etc. So it is not a poor country and every one has access to clean drinking water, shelter (of sorts), food (somehow), the basics.
However, nearly all the wealth is generated by financial services/property in London. Areas like Grimsby (for example) are really struggling.
A big wealth pyramid.
The 'middle income' countries arguably have it best eg. Eastern Europe, Peru, Russia
You might be on to something actually. There used to be a pub on every street
Hundreds of pubs close every year. Depending on which stats you believe, something like 25% - 35% of all pubs in the country have closed down since 2000. So an increase in the number of coffee places doesn't necessarily signal an increase in net spend on food & drink.
Nordic countries are much more equal and happier as a result. One of the weird things with inequality is even the richest folk are happier living in a more equal society
IMO the inequality in the UK which is high and getting higher is a driver for the anger and unhappiness that bedevils this country
The ‘middle income’ countries arguably have it best eg. Eastern Europe, Peru, Russia
There is massive inequality in the Russian Federation. Wealth is concentrated in Moscow and St Petersburg and a few other cities. Rural Russia further East, and many of the republics are dirt poor.
. At the same time, the news that a man refuses to use contraceptives although he has already produced eight living children will draw much more attention than the fact that the global total fertility rate (TFR) is declining.
Well not according to the Channel 4 news just now where global population will reach 8 billion next month. The question is who are in decline and who are increasing their production.
When people stop buying the latest I phone & ditch paid media subscriptions then I’ll believe we’re a poor nation.
This old chestnut. Very few people that I know of actually buy phones any more, they rent them. They’ve become something of a necessity in the western world now whether you like it or not. A few folk have them instead of a computer, laptop or tablet.
My Netflix subscription costs less than a TV license and I swap and change services depending on what is on that’s worth watching. Disney at the moment for Andor and The Walking Dead.
What you’re showing is classic backinmydayitis 😉
costa coffee is rubbish.
When people stop buying the latest I phone & ditch paid media subscriptions then I’ll believe we’re a poor nation.
are these people buying shares or building investment portfolios or are they blowing what little cash they have on a sugar hit?
conspicuous consumption masks a lot of poverty - see also BMWs on credit on the driveway.
Very few people that I know of actually buy phones any more, they rent them
This is the opposite of my experience. People have cottoned on that the networks rip you off and the best way to get a phone is sim-free and get a sim-only monthly deal with GiffGaff or your MVNO of choice.
Anyway, to the OPs's question, we are a rich country, but a declining one. We are losing ground compared to most EU countries, and as many have pointed out our wealth is very unevenly distributed.
costa coffee is rubbish.
I agree totally.
Agreed - go ask your mum or gran what they used to pay for their monthly phone bill, a tv and license, and convert that to modern rates. 30 quid on a phone* and 15 on Netflix won’t come anywhere near to what they paid and is infinitely a better service.
*im also of the buy a handset and get a sim only deal persuasion, but money up front when every other expense is monthly is difficult when you are poor.
When people stop buying the latest I phone & ditch paid media subscriptions then I’ll believe we’re a poor nation.
Based on the ‘how much booze do you get through’ thread, A new iphone is 2 months drinking budget to some.
As mentioned, a Netflix sub is less than a TV license.
Different strokes for different folks.
Very few people that I know of actually buy phones any more, they rent them
All three of us here have cheap android we bought and cheap giffgaff packages. Also a 12 year old car and rent our house. We're not rich, but definitely not poor with some cafe and takeaway treats from time to time.
The main problem with typical such analyses of 'wealth', is that they routinely tend to focus on figures alone, and ignore other factors. The UK is declining not only in terms of 'GDP', but also in terms of overall health, educational attainment, literacy, skills, stuff like that. Our NHS is crippled, our educational system is in steep decline, we're not training people to do much beyond what serves financial interests, and ignoring increasing numbers of people who need support.
Very few people that I know of actually buy phones any more, they rent them.
& who pays the rent, the rent fairy?
see also BMWs on credit on the driveway.
That’s where the credit fairy comes in.
I’ll believe the UK is poor/in a recession/struggling with the cost of living when I see even slightly fewer coffee shops/cafes. They’re everywhere and still more open. Even mobile ones in the park now. Is it that lucrative? What’s so amazing about buying coffee?
Most people in the circles I socialise (/work) - very much including myself - would much rather go to a cafe than a pub. It's just society modernising itself. No matter how tough the times, plenty of people still want to socialise and enjoy a really nice drink!
On pubs. round here with rampant gentrification none of the pubs have closed - but they have changed doing good coffee and food as well or really becoming restaurants with a bar. 25 pubs / bistros / gastropubs within 400m and a dozen cafes
Dunno but I think we were pretty good for having a family office at 🙁
I never really got into the coffee thing in the UK as I found it an expensive hobby and I'd rather spend it on bike bits.
In Spain its nice as its very reasonable in my bit, about 3 quid today for a coffee and coke on a beach front bar.
(but working here is hard)
This old chestnut. Very few people that I know of actually buy phones any more, they rent them. They’ve become something of a necessity in the western world now whether you like it or not. A few folk have them instead of a computer, laptop or tablet.
Yep I'd agree with this, we do use them for frivolous stuff but they are still powerful tools.
Probably been said earlier but from a person to person pov GDP is of little value it needs to be divided by capita, really working age capita for it to give comparison in the same way a house with two people and 100k pa income is vastly different to a house of 5 with 100k pa income . And to the op yes we are a lot poorer than most of our neighbors.
To be honest I am amazed anyone falls for the 6th richest country line. Show how poor most peoples numeracy is.
Agreed – go ask your mum or gran what they used to pay for their monthly phone bill, a tv and license, and convert that to modern rates
don’t need to go back that far! I re membered my old phone contract from 2000 - every day 50; 50p a day got you 50 messages & 50 minutes a day. And nothing else. So £15 a month.
I pay less now for 60GB, plus unlimited everything else, plus free calls & data in loads of other countries.
Seems like a steal when you think about it!
The place to start is looking at GDP in PPP terms (purchasing power parity), which adjusts countries’ wealth to account for the differences in living costs
Also look at GDP per capita.
I'm a bit depressed at the thought that because there are lots of coffee shops everything must be OK. There are lots of food banks too.
When people stop buying the latest I phone & ditch paid media subscriptions
Ok, top end iPhones are expensive, but can you actually tell one from a 4 year old mid-range one by sight? I'm not sure I could, they all look like black rectangles now. Given what you can do with a phone, it can be superb value for money. I bet there are plenty of people using their phone to replace the TV, land line, computer, camera and DVD player I used to have as a young person. And you could get all that for £200 on an Android phone.
And the paid media subs are actually an excellent budget option. Back in the day we'd spend a tenner at the cinema just to watch one film, then we went to the pub several nights a week. Now you can binge watch every night for £8.99 whilst drinking booze and eating snacks you bought from the supermarket. I reckon it represents some of the cheapest entertainment available, beyond that which is free.
Along similar lines, coffee is often a social event - almost no-one is alone in the one I go to sometimes during the day. A coffee might be as much as a (cheap) pint but most people are only drinking one!
Nordic countries are much more equal and happier as a result
They're also much richer due to massive oil and mineral wealth. It's easier to be generous when there's loads of free cash floating around.
Can't be arsed reading the whole thread, but, yes, as a country, the UK is quite wealthy.
Another way of thinking about it is to look at the absolute purchasing power of people at (for example) the 20th percentile. Can they afford enough basic necessities to survive (shelter, food, clothes, etc.)? There may be high inequality in many rich countries, but the poor people are still better off than poor people in really poor countries.
A few things from the above thread.
- the Nordic (= Norway) used their oil and gas windfall wisely. Stashed lots in a Sovereign Fund. Britain meanwhile piished it away and gave most benefits to a few people
- we're on a forum where the average new bike is £6-8k. Eight grand on a push bike. Some are definitely not poor here.
- coffee shops.been around for centuries as social places. Ask Mrs Miggins.
we’re on a forum where the average new bike is £6-8k.
Which forum is this exactly?
we’re on a forum where the average new bike is £6-8k.
There was a poll. It’s <3k, but let’s not let facts get in the way of a rant eh?
Not all the nordic countries have huge oil and mineral wealth. what they do have in common is progressive taxation so their richest folk are not as rich and their poorest folk are not as poor. IE the cake is shared more equally and this leads to a happier population
It leads to a fairer (assumed better) society but saying they are happier is a difficult one as all depends what the measure is. They don't appear any happier from what I can tell, the country is still full of humans and humans are generally arses no matter what country they live in, grass is greener etc,.
Ok, top end iPhones are expensive, but can you actually tell one from a 4 year old mid-range one by sight? I’m not sure I could, they all look like black rectangles now
TBH I'm pretty sure the people who go on about the 'phones' couldn't.
I was working out how long i'd had my iPhone originally got on 2 year contract then onto sim only and its probably coming up to 5 years, so probably a few hundred pounds a year or a few nights out in real terms.
Kerley - there has been research done on this IIRC. More equal countries have happier populations generally
I struggle to reconcile what we see every day to what the numbers tell us.
2021 article of debt vs gdp put us at 9th most in debt country at debt being 107% of gdp, aka slightly worse than Argentina!
And yet, the general standard of living is pretty good here. So are we the household putting it all on credit but we can afford it, or are we the household that looks OK in the surface but are one step off maxing our credit card and it all coming tumbling down?