I know we are supposed to be something like the 6th richest economy in the world. But I was listening to a podcast the other week (New Statesman I think) and they were reporting on somebody who claimed that the UK was actually a relatively poor country by comparison with a lot of our neighbours, just with a few very rich people. Something about the "average" UK family being worse off than the average family in lots of other countries. But they didn't actually provide any links to data for this, so maybe it is just hogwash.
Depends how you define 'a rich country' doesn't it?
Yes, I guess that's my point 🙂
We keep being told we are the 6th richest country in the world so presumably we are by some measure. GDP I guess. But is that a useful measure? How does the average UK family compare with the average in other countries? Is that a more useful measure of how wealthy we are?
I guess I was hoping that somebody might be able to point me to the data that produced the claim I mentioned. I thought it was an interesting concept, but would like more than an unsubstantiated comment on a podcast to go on.
Probably impossible to get a real answer from anywhere.
e.g, if you wanted to find a country where a modest working or middle class job for 35 hours a week can feed and house a family and live comfortably on one income... I wouldn't be looking at northern europe or north america
The place to start is looking at GDP in PPP terms (purchasing power parity), which adjusts countries' wealth to account for the differences in living costs
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.KD?view=map
Inequality is the other thing to bear in mind as you say. The UK is not that much higher than most European countries on this:
rich, dont know.
expendable income, deffo.
i would hazard a bet that the majority of households in the uk have,
a. a good phone and contract
b. sky tv or some other non terrestrial set up
c. eat takeaway food more than freshly cooked food most days
as a bit of proof of my thoughts, i went for a walk on bonfire night.
on the largest council estate in leeds. i would love to know how much money went up in smoke with fireworks.
Yes but its also very unequal and more unequal than most.
When I was in Ireland which is a less rich country I saw less dead high streets and less poverty ( tho I did not go into the big cities. Perhaps they are less unequal
Inequality in the UK has been rising for decades due to deliberate tory policy
So the UK is a rich country but with a lot of poverty due to the inequality with which those riches are dispersed
Thanks @Klunk I'm sure that's where the information I heard came from as it's basically the same headline.
The UK is a rich country, full of poor people.
e.g, if you wanted to find a country where a modest working or middle class job for 35 hours a week can feed and house a family and live comfortably on one income… I wouldn’t be looking at northern europe or north america
Where would you look then?
Dunno, but I guess we're about to be cajoled into giving billions to developing countries. Because climate change
Here is a fun quote from that FT article:
" In 2007, the average UK household was 8 per cent worse off than its peers in north-western Europe, but the deficit has since ballooned to a record 20 per cent. On present trends, the average Slovenian household will be better off than its British counterpart by 2024, and the average Polish family will move ahead before the end of the decade. A country in desperate need of migrant labour may soon have to ask new arrivals to take a pay cut."
We have a rich ruling class, rich politicians(+ getting richer year on year) and their rich donators/supporters. But the average pleb is still looking to live in a frugal manner.
Remember, the £800 billion the country pulls in each year isnt distributed fairly, but every penny comes from the public. So in reality there is plenty of funds for the NHS, the poor, the most vulnerable in society and the rest combined, only they cant do that because they gift their own a large portion of it.
Rich in what? Walk down any street in London and think of the supposed value tied up in those assets surrounding you within a relatively small radius, then multiply across the whole city/ country. Its mind boggling. Next time you're on the motorway think of the value invested in the vehicles that share that road space... in the meantime, what percentage of kids aren't even being fed properly? Someone will be along in a minute to tell you that's fine, that's who we are. It's not. It's nuts. The things we are rich in don't seem to be helping most people all that much.
the majority of households in the uk... eat takeaway food more than freshly cooked food most days
I doubt that.
@legometeorology if I'm reading that map correctly the UK is poorer than Ireland 😮
Country is rich but people are poor (most).
What's the average disposable income and savings?
the majority of households in the uk… eat takeaway food more than freshly cooked food most days
I doubt that.
judging by the growth in food delivery services around the country, like i said, i would chance a bet on it.
Irelands economy has been performing very well recently, much better than the Uk. Anyone care to hazard a wild guess as to why?
The 1,000 BHP supercharged economic engine that is London massively skews the numbers.
They found a four leaf clover? or a pot of gold?
Dunno, but I guess we’re about to be cajoled into giving billions to developing countries. Because climate change
Would you rather we did **** all and wait a few years till the climate is not conducive to sustainable life in such countries?, how d’ya fancy dealing with hundreds of millions of people moving just to survive?, you’ll need more than your little edc prepper toolkit to save your way of existence if that happens
They harvest green Unicorns, have seen fields full of them.
I guess we’re about to be cajoled into giving billions to developing countries. Because climate change
Well if we don't, we'll be very poor within the next two generations. If not directly from climate change, then from the droughts and famines and resulting wars and displaced populations with an axe to grind.
Yes is the short answer and no is the long answer.
Its complex but the gap between young working class, poorly educated and middle aged well educated is absolutely huge.
Education and opportunity is woeful for many kids.
We have virtually no social responsibility, i doubt we ever did.
I’ll believe the UK is poor/in a recession/struggling with the cost of living when I see even slightly fewer coffee shops/cafes. They’re everywhere and still more open. Even mobile ones in the park now. Is it that lucrative? What’s so amazing about buying coffee?
Even mobile ones in the park now. Is it that lucrative? What’s so amazing about buying coffee?
People are trying to earn a living to provide for themselves rather than relying on handouts.
Do you notice in Asia/Far East street stalls are everywhere? Why make it so hard for people who are willing to work for a living?
I’ll believe the UK is poor/in a recession/struggling with the cost of living when I see even slightly fewer coffee shops/cafes.
Here comes the lazy.... "if you can buy a coffee, what are you complaining about" right wing old codger winger shit.
See also...
Avocado on toast.
Flat screen TVs.
Mobile phones.
Anything that wasn't mainstream "when I were a lad".
We keep being told we are the 6th richest country in the world so presumably we are by some measure. GDP I guess. But is that a useful measure?
Yes, if you either import NOTHING or have a positive balance of trade (something the UK hasn't had for 2 decades)
I read in a book (so it must be true) that the Queen (so I expect stands for the King) could give everyone over the age of 18 in the UK £1million and still be in the Forbes Rich list
I read in a book (so it must be true) that the Queen (so I expect stands for the King) could give everyone over the age of 18 in the UK £1million and still be in the Forbes Rich list
For billionaire what is £68 millions?
How many billionaires do we have in the UK? I mean their penny is the size of bullock cart wheel.
Try asking any of the billionaires to give you £1k and see what happen.
I read in a book (so it must be true) that the Queen (so I expect stands for the King) could give everyone over the age of 18 in the UK £1million and still be in the Forbes Rich list
Chewkw:
For billionaire what is £68 millions?
That’d be the cost of giving everyone £1 each. Not a million each.
Not even many billionaires can payout £68 thousand billion.
Hard to say if the Crown has £68 trillion - depends on land values I guess, but you’d have to sell it all, which might affect prices a little.
Not saying it’s a bad plan, btw, just pointing out the maths.
Edit: seems the royal family is short by a factor of about 2000. Land included!!
Discard the top and bottom 5% of the population, average that and apply the PPP (purchasing power parity) and then compare. This gets rid of the worst extremes of skew and dramatically alters the UK position and gives a result more in tune with peoples 'feel'. I think it was on the Radio 4 statistics program (More or Less?) a few years back when the Tories were claiming how rich we all were but I can't find it on Google.
Not even many billionaires can payout £68 thousand billion.
Probably those are just on paper value but not cash rich and in which case they borrow to live and spend by paying minimum tax if any. (not referring to he crown but those so called millionaires and billionaires)
I learned all this from one of the world renowned investor.
You may be confusing largest (total GDP - US, China, Japan, Germany and then very close between UK and France IIRC with India catching up) with richest (per capita, where little places like Luxembourg and Singapore tend to come out on top, not much totalwealth but each of the smaller number of individualsis quite well off, China does quote badly on this measure but is a much bigger economy than us)
ton
rich, dont know.
expendable income, deffo.
i would hazard a bet that the majority of households in the uk have,
a. a good phone and contract
b. sky tv or some other non terrestrial set up
c. eat takeaway food more than freshly cooked food most daysas a bit of proof of my thoughts, i went for a walk on bonfire night.
on the largest council estate in leeds. i would love to know how much money went up in smoke with fireworks.
Tony I'm obviously an outlier here:
No income since May
SIM only on a 5 year old Samsung
Freeview TV
Over a year since I've had a takeaway
Never lit a firework in my life.
Yet I'm probably considered rich compared to much of the UK. I think the main problem is where the real bulk of the UK wealth resides. Compared to them I'm a pauper.
Oh and as for the Coffee shop thing. I've never been in one never mind bought a coffee from them. I'm told our local independant one is really good but I seem to have absorbed my mothers Yorkshire ways with not paying for something I can make myself!
Golly, there are some touchy coffee-wallers on the forum 😆
Nobody’s bemoaning one’s right to buy coffee, or the right to trade and earn a crust. When it comes to free-enterprise I’m true-blue Thatcherite. Sell drugs, sell your body, sell your children! I don’t care.
My point was that I’m surprised there is so much money sloshing around that everyone seems to be falling over themselves to open coffee shops, in an area chock full of coffee shops. Often developing all kinds of buildings at considerable expense from their various previous uses into… coffee shops. Employing staff that must live somewhere so will be earning enough money from coffee to pay their massive rents/mortgages etc etc…
Just trying to work it out, and whether I should start selling coffee from the back of my car.
Slight distraction ... I am trying to figure this out after the world renowned investor spoke about it.
Let's say on paper you are a billionaire or run a company with that value. Therefore, on paper you are rich. But you pay yourself average salary and pay the tax for that.
Then you borrow millions to spend on luxury lifestyle and pay the interest rate for the borrowing in time accordingly. Surely the interest rate will be lower than paying income tax? Yes? Accountant in the house?
Golly, there are some touchy coffee-wallers on the forum 😆
LOL! I just want to see more affordable street food rather paying for sky rocket average taste food. I mean look at the street food in Asia/Far East. I mean some of them have Michelle stars I kid you not!
What cheese me off is recently I went to restaurant here that sell food from my region. I mean we ordered many dishes and I was thinking that at least the standard should be good. FFS! 4/10 is my rating for all the dishes and guess what the restaurant is busy all the time. FFS! Street food in Asia/Far East can easily beat them hand down. On top of that all the main course start at more than £9. FFS! That's why I refuse to go to anyone of them. I rather get fish and chips or curry buffet.
Saw some stats a while back that used something closer to the Human Development Index, or namely what chance the inhabitant has of getting on in life using various broad quality of life metrics. Surprisingly (or not) most of the top ten worst performing regions of Europe resided in the UK. Only our best performing areas of the Capital and limited areas of the South East were on par with the European average. While in contrast and importantly, both the cities and the rural regions of France manage to meet those averages. We do not look so healthy or wealthy in comparison, it would be good if the Little Englandshire exceptional flag shaggers acknowledged those facts.
I know we are supposed to be something like the 6th richest economy in the world.
Prior to the Brexit referendum, we were 4th... Then we were 5th for a while before we left the EU, and now we are 6th...
But I was listening to a podcast the other week (New Statesman I think) and they were reporting on somebody who claimed that the UK was actually a relatively poor country by comparison with a lot of our neighbours, just with a few very rich people. Something about the “average” UK family being worse off than the average family in lots of other countries.
Why do you think the right wing wanted Brexit so much, and the Tories have run away with it and made it as tough on the average person as they can...? It is their raison d'etre to perpetuate the rich/poor divide! The entire world has felt the economic fallout of COVID and to some extent, the war in Ukraine... No other country has felt the fallout of Brexit!
Irelands economy has been performing very well recently, much better than the Uk. Anyone care to hazard a wild guess as to why?
It's on the tip of my tongue... 🤔
Here comes the lazy…. “if you can buy a coffee, what are you complaining about” right wing old codger winger shit.
It's the same old shit that keeps the Tories in power... Doubtless the same was said half a century about people who had central heating and running water not knowing they were born... There's always some right wing c**t ready to whip up hatred based upon a perception of even poor people having things that he didn't have half a century ago...
The 1,000 BHP supercharged economic engine that is London massively skews the numbers.
It does, but it too has had its wings clipped somewhat in the last few years... Hence the last Tory mini-budget (that thankfully has been thrown in the sea!) to reduce the top tax bracket, uncap bankers bonuses etc. once again... Tories doing what Tories do best, taxing the poor to give to the rich! 🤦🏻
most of the top ten worst performing regions of Europe resided in the UK
When we were in the EU, we did have some of the most deprived areas in Europe, who benefited from millions in EU funding. Ironically, those areas were pro-leave in the referendum...
We had 9 out of 10 poorest regions in 2014, and had improved slightly to 6 out of 10 by 2016...
https://fullfact.org/economy/does-uk-have-poorest-regions-northern-europe/
People are buying coffee, but are they going out on the lash less and buying less beer?
People are buying coffee, but are they going out on the lash less and buying less beer?
When I used to go to my local CrossFit box (before it folded) all the young people went out for coffee as their main social thing. In my day we just went to the pub and got shit faced and ended up vomiting in the street...
I think they have a better plan.....
There are huge disparities and social inequality for sure. Huge numbers are struggling and definitely nowhere near 'rich' by western standards. It also feels like we are slipping backwards compared to other European countries.
It helps to keep some perspective though. I recall reading somewhere that if you have running water, a solid roof over your head (owned or rented) and a car, you are in the top 1% of the world's wealthiest. If you add free healthcare and education then it's significantly better than that.
I'm not belittling the huge issues many are facing, but there are lots of places in the world where it's far worse.
I've just come back from a month in Southern Spain. We saw more beggars there than we ever did in Goa.
When people stop buying the latest I phone & ditch paid media subscriptions then I'll believe we're a poor nation.