[Closed] Is the UK a Christian Country?

He is the "green man" - a pagan symbol

🙂 It's amazing what people will force themselves to believe so that it fits neatly into their predetermined ideas.

Paganism.......the perfect niche religion without popular support to satisfy the needs of every self-respecting STWer.

He is the "green man" - a pagan symbol

means nothing, as has been stated clearly all religions adopt the old, look on most medieval churches and you will find the green man. Consider the celtic saints, the idea of adopting what existed is clear, Consider that Gloucester Cathedral is built on the site of the roman temple. Or how temple mount has been reused, or even more clearly consider saint sophia in istanbul.

The old is never thrown away merely twisted to fit the new.

So you're singing the songs, following the traditions, using the symbols, following the moral code. How do you tell the difference?

I expect he had his fingers crossed.

Your question is nonsensical as the premise you base it on is wrong.

The holly and the ivy

Isn't that the one about the blood of Christ?

Holly and Ivy are clear pagan symbols

The Holly and the Ivy is not a "pre christian Christmas carol" which you claimed it was.

You are in fact TJ, "wrong".

TJ the words to the current version of the Holly and the Ivy,

The holly and the ivy,
When they are both full grown
Of all the trees that are in the wood
The holly bears the crown
O the rising of the sun
And the running of the deer
The playing of the merry organ
Sweet singing of the choir

The holly bears a blossom
As white as lily flower
And Mary bore sweet Jesus Christ
To be our sweet Saviour
O the rising of the sun
And the running of the deer
The playing of the merry organ
Sweet singing of the choir

The holly bears a berry
As red as any blood
And Mary bore sweet Jesus Christ
To do poor sinners good
O the rising of the sun
And the running of the deer
The playing of the merry organ
Sweet singing of the choir

The holly bears a prickle
As sharp as any thorn;
And Mary bore sweet Jesus Christ
On Christmas Day in the morn.
O the rising of the sun
And the running of the deer
The playing of the merry organ
Sweet singing of the choir

The holly bears a bark
As bitter as any gall;
And Mary bore sweet Jesus Christ
For to redeem us all.
O the rising of the sun
And the running of the deer
The playing of the merry organ
Sweet singing of the choir

The holly and the ivy
Now both are full well grown,
Of all the trees that are in the wood,
The holly bears the crown.
O the rising of the sun
And the running of the deer
The playing of the merry organ
Sweet singing of the choir

and in the second verse see it talks about jesus... so it is christian carol NOW.

poly - Member

You suggested Father Christmas isn't traditionally Christian, I'm not clear if there is a generally agreed origin, but I've always understood there to be an association with Saint Nicolaus, who gives his "Status" as a "Saint" I presumed to be a Christian figure.

The idea of a mythical, white-bearded older gent who dressed in red, flew about in a magical chariot pulled by animals (goats called Cracker and Gnasher) and who came down the chimney with presents all harks back to the Norse god Thor - who was also the god of Yule.

Ernie - not at all - Father Christmas is a mix of different traditionl bits of symbology taken from allover. A part of it is the Green Man. All that flying reindeer stuff is norse.

Where in the bible is Father Christmas?

As for the holly and the ivy - obvious and clear reference to the pagan midwinter festival..

The holly and the ivy,
When they are both full grown
Of all the trees that are in the wood
The holly bears the crown
O the rising of the sun
And the running of the deer
The playing of the merry organ
Sweet singing of the choir

Celebrating the survual of the greenery thru the winterand the return of the sun.

aracer - Member

Right TJ (and Northwind) so you're living in a country where they have Christian traditions, morals, songs etc. and most people believe in God. You move to a country where they have Christian traditions, morals, songs etc. and most people don't believe in God. What fundamental differences do you notice?

We live in that second country... I don't have any experience of what the former would be like so it's hard to say. One thing jumps to mind with current affairs- in Scotland we're legislating for same-sex marriage just now, that would obviously be forbidden in a christian state.

I also think it's possible I'm wearing some clothes woven of different kinds of thread.

(incidentally- still you keep up with "christian moral" rather than "morals which christianity has"- "thou shalt not murder" being an almost universal moral, for instance, not a christian moral)

Where in the bible is Father Christmas?

The bible talks about stoning adulters and not eating pork so is that the sign of a christian country?

Where in the bible is Father Christmas?

Lets just turn that round:

Where in "Father [b]Christ[/b]mas" is there something to do with Christianity?

(I've made it easy for you)

TandemJeremy - Member

Father Christmas is a mix of different traditionl bits of symbology taken from allover

Whoa, hang on a second, you just told me that Father Christmas was the "green man" - a pagan symbol.

Yup - mixed in with a bit of norse symbology

Where in "[b]Fat[/b]her Christmas" is there something to do with Christianity?

Actually the origins of the "modern" Father Christmas/Santa and his description, as is now generally accepted, lie in this poem :

[i]Twas the Night before Christmas Poem

Twas the night before Christmas, when all through the house
Not a creature was stirring, not even a mouse.
The stockings were hung by the chimney with care,
In hopes that St Nicholas soon would be there.

The children were nestled all snug in their beds,
While visions of sugar-plums danced in their heads.
And mamma in her ‘kerchief, and I in my cap,
Had just settled our brains for a long winter’s nap.

When out on the lawn there arose such a clatter,
I sprang from the bed to see what was the matter.
Away to the window I flew like a flash,
Tore open the shutters and threw up the sash.

The moon on the breast of the new-fallen snow
Gave the lustre of mid-day to objects below.
When, what to my wondering eyes should appear,
But a miniature sleigh, and eight tinny reindeer.

With a little old driver, so lively and quick,
I knew in a moment it must be St Nick.
More rapid than eagles his coursers they came,
And he whistled, and shouted, and called them by name!

"Now Dasher! now, Dancer! now, Prancer and Vixen!
On, Comet! On, Cupid! on, on Donner and Blitzen!
To the top of the porch! to the top of the wall!
Now dash away! Dash away! Dash away all!"

As dry leaves that before the wild hurricane fly,
When they meet with an obstacle, mount to the sky.
So up to the house-top the coursers they flew,
With the sleigh full of Toys, and St Nicholas too.

And then, in a twinkling, I heard on the roof
The prancing and pawing of each little hoof.
As I drew in my head, and was turning around,
Down the chimney St Nicholas came with a bound.

He was dressed all in fur, from his head to his foot,
And his clothes were all tarnished with ashes and soot.
A bundle of Toys he had flung on his back,
And he looked like a peddler, just opening his pack.

His eyes-how they twinkled! his dimples how merry!
His cheeks were like roses, his nose like a cherry!
His droll little mouth was drawn up like a bow,
And the beard of his chin was as white as the snow.

The stump of a pipe he held tight in his teeth,
And the smoke it encircled his head like a wreath.
He had a broad face and a little round belly,
That shook when he laughed, like a bowlful of jelly!

He was chubby and plump, a right jolly old elf,
And I laughed when I saw him, in spite of myself!
A wink of his eye and a twist of his head,
Soon gave me to know I had nothing to dread.

He spoke not a word, but went straight to his work,
And filled all the stockings, then turned with a jerk.
And laying his finger aside of his nose,
And giving a nod, up the chimney he rose!

He sprang to his sleigh, to his team gave a whistle,
And away they all flew like the down of a thistle.
But I heard him exclaim, ‘ere he drove out of sight,
"Happy Christmas to all, and to all a good-night!" [/i]

Only he was a little smaller back in 1823.

And on that note:

Bah Humbug!

Really Ernie - far fetched that. Various variants exist in mythology all over the place and obviously predate that.

Yes that may have been a part of what pulled all the old myths together but they preexist that by thousands of years

What about Sinter Klaas? Who became Santa claus and is also incorported in that figure?

Yes that may have been a part of what pulled all the old myths together but they preexist that by thousands of years

AND what pulled them together???

Do you need a clue?

mrmo - Member

AND what pulled them together???

The increase of global travel, and then the growth of the written versions of oral histories which made it possible for these various localised myths to be widely shared, then intermingled.

Hallmark?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinterklaas

by the horn of Krampus you Christians will steal anything that isn't nailed down...!!!

[img] [/img]

Human nature.

and the context they were given?

We don't call the mid winter festival divalli, saturnalia, we don't overtly celebrate Janus,

What we do call the festival is christmas, we give gifts, we eat, we sing carols, we await the coming of Father Coke, If we were a non christian society, in fact if we were a different christian society, think Jehovahs witnesses and puritans, the midwinter festival would be very different.

we give gifts, we eat, we sing carols, we await the coming of Father Coke

Non of which have anything much to do with Christianity

Except that the vague "winter gift giver" figure pre-dates christianity. There's no question that christianity co-opted strong myths whenever they could, but does that make them inherently christian, or does it meant that what looks like a christian myth actually has a life of its own?

Here we have a myth so strong that despite the efforts of christianity to suborn it, it still maintains its own identity and origins after centuries. Do we think it's likely that christianity is the only reason it survived, or do we think it survived despite christianity? Or some combination of the two?

Non of which have anything much to do with Christianity

agreed, except we call it christmas and the reason it exists in the format it does is christian, or more specifically anglo-christianity. A german christmas is different to a dutch christmas, which differs from a polish or a Spanish, society shapes religion, religion shapes society.

Nice logical twist Mrmo.

and the epic of gilgamesh predates Noah's ark, but does that mean that the flood is a non christian story?

agreed, except we call it christmas and the reason it exists in the format it does is christian, or more specifically anglo-christianity. A german christmas is different to a dutch christmas, which differs from a polish or a Spanish, society shapes religion, religion shapes society.

Tresthee entos.
[img] http://www.smileys4me.com/getsmiley.php?show=2143 [/img]

Except now a Spanish Christmas isn't that different from a British Chistmas in that they are both spending frenzies, leaving behind whatever origins they had to take on a new meaning in the consumer calendar.

Which is why i said a while ago we are moving away from being christian and for a better term becoming a capitalistic society, not quite there yet, we haven't quite given up on Nativity plays. We certainly aren't as christian as we once were, but the new order hasn't yet formed enough to be the dominent order.

but the new order hasn't yet formed enough to be the dominent order.

that statement is a joke right..!?

we haven't quite given up on Nativity plays

that statement is a joke right..!?

Badly worded yes, joke no,

As i said we are a christian society but we are becoming less so, what we are becoming? that is what i meant by new order. it could be consumerism, capitalism, etc. People are sheep they will always herd together for strength and will always be controlled.

As i said we are a christian society but we are becoming less so, what we are becoming?

so you reckon at some point people will stop being nice (Christian) to each other..?

so you reckon at some point people will stop being nice (Christian) to each other..?

Who knows, might be more tolerant, might be less tolerant. Society will change, something will emerge, it will coalesce around some idea. and move on.

I hope it (officially) coalesces around beer like it used to before the Christians turned up..

This thread is [s]getting[/s] [b]Got a good while ago[/b] (pre-emptive FTFY) a bit daft and circular now. It seems that most people agree on most of the facts, and the crux of the discussion lies with whether a country is classed as Christian because the majority of its people are (god believing) Christian or because it's history and workings are based around Christianity.

It's all getting a bit semanticcy, dontcha think?

Although tbe fair some very good and reasonable points made by all sides, for what it's worth...

v8 - I'm with you on that one.

TJ - Was one of the "ideas" that merged to form Father Christmas possibly Saint Nicolas a 3rd Century Christian Saint who gave away presents to children... ...in fact if you go to the German speaking European countries you'll find St Nicolas still comes (on the 5th of December as it happens) and leaves presents for the kids if they have been good. Now we may well have merged that with your Green Man and the Norse Flying Goats etc but to form what we now call Santa Claus (SAiNTa niCoLAS ?) but to suggest there is no Christian influence would be niave. The Bible question is quite ridiculous, that would suggest that Christianity hasn't evolved since the bible and was simply about what is in that book. Perhaps your definition of being "a Christian" requires that people believe everything in the bible and live their life accordingy to it - which would explain why you think their are only a tiny majority of christians but the statistics say otherwise.

Aracer - I'm sure if you address it to "The Grumpy guy with a Tandem, Leith" the card will get there!

Whoever it was that mentioned progress towards Same Sex Marriage - I'd suggest that the fact this is only in Scotland, and its taken so long to get this far (why just Civil partnerships to start with?); and that the bill is not through yet and the Church feels it has a role in lobbying against it is all a sign that we are still a Christian country! If we were not then our politicians wouldn't really care what the Church thought. I do believe given enough time we will properly become Secular - but at current progress that won't be in my lifetime, which is a shame.

poly - Member

Whoever it was that mentioned progress towards Same Sex Marriage - I'd suggest that the fact this is only in Scotland, and its taken so long to get this far (why just Civil partnerships to start with?); and that the bill is not through yet and the Church feels it has a role in lobbying against it is all a sign that we are still a Christian country!

Laws take time; and any group can take a role in lobbying. The churches do have a disproportionate voice, because they've managed to convince people they speak for more people than they actually do, but then that's true of a lot of pressure groups (actually, might well be the very first thing you do when you become a pressure group)

The Queen is head of state and head of the Church of England.As part of the coronation ceremony, the Sovereign swears an oath to "maintain and preserve inviolably the settlement of the Church of England, and the doctrine, worship, discipline, and government thereof, as by law established in England". The Church of England is a Christian denomination so I'd say we are a Christian country.Sod Santa.

I've been away for the weekend. Eight pages that might be interesting or might be squabbletwaddle. Do I need to read this?

Do I need to read this?

The End.

I've been away for the weekend. Eight pages that might be interesting or might be squabbletwaddle. Do I need to read this?

Absolutely. It's 8 pages of intelligent, careful, and well thought out, argument. TJ in particular, has excelled himself by not making wild unsubstantiated allegations, showing restraint and only commenting after he has thoroughly researched his point.

So what better way to conclude your weekend ? ........get busy reading. And emerge a more enlighten person. Good luck.

I have to say Ernie I find your blind spot on this quite incredible

We have established clearly that a minority of the population are Christians and that all the major Christian festivals actually are rooted in a far older tradition. For example most of the symbols used at Christmas come from a far older tradition. Most people don't get married in church etc yet you still think its a Christian country.

We have a very thin veneer of Christianity over much older traditions and what little influence the Christian churches have are an fading anachronism

Very puzzling how you can think the country remains Christian in face of all the evidence to the contrary