[Closed] Is the UK a Christian Country?

Rusty Spanner - Member

The major Ibrahamic religions stole some wonderful ideas from secular society and rebranded them as their own

Well that's a stunning claim to make. I was not aware of any evidence to show that before "pre-Abrahamic religions" there existed secular societies ...... got anything to back that up with ?

Indeed iirc Karl Marx asserts that the first step from primitive communism to class-based society occurred with the advent of religion, ie, as the need arose for priests to satisfy the 'spiritual' needs of society a new class arose which was longer part of the productive structure, but wholly dependant on it. And contrary to the commonly held belief, priesthood is the world's oldest profession. I think Marx was probably right - unless you know better ?

If he really believed what he read in the Bible, he would be terrified to allow the marginalisation of the poor and needy in the way he does.

Unfortunately, when it comes to money, the likes of him and his kind become very "unchristian". Not a complete surprise I suppose as the morality that many religions are based upon was around long before religion itself, and there has always been self-interested people since year dot.

I'd like to see us free from politicians like Cameron

An excellent post ditch_jockey, but what did you really expect? This is a democracy, we elect who the majority of us want.

So if we value materialism then we vote for whoever's likely to indulge us. The lip service to Christianity is simply a consequence of electoral pressures.

Unfortunately, when it comes to money, the likes of him and his kind become very "unchristian".

Unfortunately, the morality associated with Christianity seems to have been sidelined into discussions about 'gayness' and women priests, both of which attract little attention throughout the Bible, along with risible guff like smoking, drinking and going to the pictures. The big issue that both Testaments return to again and again is how a community treats [i]"widows, orphans and aliens"[/i] - three groups that represented the least influential and most vulnerable groups in society. The treatment of these groups are consistently presented as the barometer of how [i]'godly'[/i]any community is.

The country's timetable is organised around Christian events and the Christian sabbath.

Agree with your post Konabunny, but the main festivals were present long before christianity - and merely hijacked/re-branded by them. Mid-winter, spring/fertility etc.

And just to be clear, we're keeping Christmas and Easter - you can have all the other crap back anytime you want.

Technically speaking, Easter should co-incide with the Jewish festival of Passover. I think the Eastern Orthodox churches calculate the date around that, so we could switch to that system and leave the pagans with the Spring Equinox to dance about naked or whatever they want to do.

Is the UK a Christian Country?

Christian county - correct
Secular society - correct

Next question?

Next question?

MU 3-1 (easy, and I know nowt about f'ball!)

Thanks.
*runs off to bookies*

Hi all,

I am a believing Christian, but I've always felt a bit sheepish about the idea of the religious establishment being written into the political, social and economic structure of the country; more-so, now, when the sort of statement made by the Prime Minister is a short hand for telling Sun readers that he's secretly on their level when it comes to immigrants. It's not new; the Tories have been doing it for years, by utterly belying the teachings of Jesus in their belief in the good of economic inequality while trotting out cartoon Xtianity when they want to spit on someone: usually a poor someone with a darker tone of skin than was the norm in Grantham when Maggie was a girl (was it Grantham? I can't be bothered to delve).

Anyone drawn to or saddled with Christianity as their natural expression of faith has to study a bit, in order to dig beneath the layers of power structures,distortions, simplifications and over-complex-ifications (not a word, I know) that history has dumped on the faith, but, when I gave up the struggle to be an atheist, and realised that I SIMPLY BELIEVE I was fortunate to be told to concentrate on the teachings of Jesus and ignore everything else.

Everything he taught is opposed to the idea of exclusion. He walked with the poor, the despised and the wrong-headed and he gave them hope, but he didn't turn away the rich or the soldier, or the politician (Pilate). The idea that a religion grown from him should be a badge of exclusion underpinning policies of hatred and mistrust is repulsive.

I've always thought George Bush is, at heart, an atheist cynic, although it is mean to doubt someone's faith, and I thought the same of Osama Bin Laden. When politicians, whose faith is so obviously their own power and the wealth of nations and of their own cliques, hang their hatred or policies of convenience on to the faith I love, I have a hard time not thinking the same of them.

I really wish this forum had 'like' buttons or something similar. There is so much good stuff in this thread I'd like to give a thumbs-up to.

Indeed iirc Karl Marx asserts that the first step from primitive communism to class-based society occurred with the advent of religion, ie, as the need arose for priests to satisfy the 'spiritual' needs of society a new class arose which was longer part of the productive structure, but wholly dependant on it. And contrary to the commonly held belief, priesthood is the world's oldest profession. I think Marx was probably right - unless you know better ?

yes Marx creator of the religion known as communism, and much like other religions its utter shit and has lead to the deaths of millions.

yes Marx creator of the religion known as communism, and much like other religions its utter shit and has lead to the deaths of millions.

OK, having established that we're talking Karl Marx "creator of the religion known as communism" and not Groucho Marx, do you agree with his assertion that the first step from primitive communism to class-based society occurred with the advent of religion, ie, as the need arose for priests to satisfy the 'spiritual' needs of society a new class arose which was longer part of the productive process, but wholly dependant on it. And contrary to the commonly held belief, priesthood is the world's oldest profession ?

Well do you or not ?

I'm still waiting....

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This is a democracy, we elect who the majority of us want.

the main festivals were present long before christianity - and merely hijacked/re-branded by them. Mid-winter, spring/fertility etc.

Quite true but I think their importance today is as Christian festivals even if based on pre-Christian rites. Presumably there are plenty of pre-Christian religious things that most people in the UK haven't heard of because the Christians didn't adopt them.

Marx creator of the religion known as communism, and much like other religions its utter shit and has lead to the deaths of millions.

Marxism is not a religion. You're simply talking nonsense about something you don't like (which, to be fair, is pretty much the standard fare on internet forums 😆 ).

Marxism is not a religion. You're simply talking nonsense about something you don't like (which, to be fair, is pretty much the standard fare on internet forums

i should have said its like a religion, there a bloke with a beard that wrote a book, and if you don't believe/follow instruction/directives/teachings etc things in said book, you get killed. Yep sounds like a religion to me.

do you agree with his assertion that the first step from primitive communism to class-based society occurred with the advent of religion, ie, as the need arose for priests to satisfy the 'spiritual' needs of society a new class arose which was longer part of the productive process, but wholly dependant on it. And contrary to the commonly held belief, priesthood is the world's oldest profession ?

i would like to know what sources Marx used to gain the assertion that primitive society was a communist society.

a bloke with a beard that wrote a book, and if you don't believe/follow instruction/directives/teachings etc things in said book, you get killed. Yep sounds like a religion to me.

Ignoring your insult about bearded revolutionaries, I think it's probably fair to point out that although like the great marxist patriot James Connolly I take my religion from Rome but my politics from home, I haven't felt the urge to kill anyone so far this week.

Anyway, you still haven't answered the question one way or the other. I take it you don't disagree with Marx otherwise you would clearly have said so, you obviously just can't bring yourself to admit agreeing with him.

Fair enough, we'll leave at that - I need to get busy with stuff for the big Christian feast which is coming up far too quickly.

In as much as that early/primitive societiess were often on the brink of destruction through starvation and/or weather events and that the only way to survive as a society would be to band together for the common good then yes, it was a form of proto-communism.
Humans are not naturally slfish i believe, when living in small communal groupings where people know everyone else the urge to defend that society is strong, when we live apart from each other in a huge amorphous and faceless mass we become selfish.

Some good stuff on here, i'm atheistic but i agree completely with ditch_jockey et.al, if i were a real Christian i too would be bloody embarrassed to hear him trot out this guff.

Early humans were cannibals...and you are part of the Bourgeoisie , that bike you own is a life times wages for some people on this planet!

and you are part of the Bourgeoisie

You know how to ruin someone's weekend, dontcha ?

Humans are cannabalistic now - at least our Western 'grab what you can' Societies are indulging in a free for all at the buffet...

Early humans were cannibals..

now you just listen 'ere young man..

my dear old mum is almost quite primitive and she's never ate a single 'nother soul in 'er whole life..

a bloke with a beard that wrote a book, and if you don't believe/follow instruction/directives/teachings etc things in said book, you get killed. Yep sounds like a religion to me.

Got it.

But what happens when the clean-shaven espouse the beliefs of the hirsute? Are the Burmese Way To Socialism (Ne Win, Sein Lwin - clean shaven) and Juche (Kim Il-sung, Kim Jong-il - not even slightly hairy) religions or not??? WE NEEDS TO KNOW!

I'm pretty sure we're still heathen. 2000 years of oppressive religion and the british get pissed, fight and shag in the street. Still.

Makes you proud.

So the critical difference between Marxism as a religion (Marx, Engels - beard) and fascism (Neitzsche, Hitler, Wagner - moustaches) / Ba'athism (Michel Aflaq, Salah al-Din al-Bitar - clean shaven) / Rukhanaist ideology (Nursultan Nazarbayev - clean shaven) / Jamahiriya (Colonel Gadaffi - scruffy goatee) is the facial hair of the primary authors?

yes they are all just nut jobs that have caused more harm than good.

TandemJeremy - Member
The UK is a secular country. We have some anachronisms from an earlier age but the majority of people in the UK are non believers

I don't see a problem with a claim that the UK is a Christian country:

- the church is heavily embedded in the structures of the country, from the Head of State automatically being the head of the Church of England, to the fact that Bishops are entrenched in the House of Lords.
- Christianity is clearly entrenched in our legal system, not only from the values and some of the laws we have but down to the fact that the default "Oath" in courts is to swear on a Bible.
- whilst "the Churches" continue to influence political policy on same sex marriage / adoption etc it is hard to believe that their views don't hold weight with a significant sector of the population.
- the census says that people voluntarily answered a question where the majority say they are Christian,
- a significant proportion of Education is still run by the Christian churches, and even those which are supposedly non-denominational will hold Christmas and Easter services etc.
- we seem to accept a copy of the bible being given to every child by the Gideons but there would be outcry if someone started doing the same with e.g. the Quoran,
- even total non-believers like me still "enjoy" the religious holidays at Christmas and Easter etc - whilst it is true to say that many of the trappings of these festivals existed before christianity prevailed, and that much of it is so commercialised to make the Churches extremely uncomfortable with it - its also true that some of the bits we would find hardest to give up are references to the christian variant of these festivals (presents at Christmas, eggs at easter!).

Whilst I would agree that I see very little evidence of active participation in religion, there is passive acceptance of the status quo even from many people who would argue strongly that religion has no place in societies norms.

Perhaps it is even possible to be christian (the adjective rather than the noun) without believing in god or subscribing to Christianity? If you consider being christian (with a small "c") a set of values rather than fundamental beliefs then probably the vast majority of people are actually christian! I'm not sure if the churches would rather we were all christian or Christians?

Off on a tangent a bit, but at this time of yr even people like me enjoy a little church music. Throughout the centuries the musical tradition of the Church had produced some awe-inspiring music - from Handel's Messiah to the old Carols etc.

Do the other major religions have such a tradition of great music?

Serious question as i really don't know.

yes islamic music is only narrowly surpassed by their art works 😉

Strict adherence means they do neither

Regardless of one's personal religion it is hard to argue that the UK isn't a Christian country.

Most people in the country see themselves as "Church of [b]England[/b]" and church and state are pretty much inseparable given that the Queen is head of the church and our constitutional monarchy is totally bound up with the church.

Looking at it from the other direction, how is the country organised and run? At the lowest level of organisation the country is divided up by [b]Parish[/b]

And why are we all having a few days off next week?

Er.... i think quite a lot of folk might just see themselves as Church of Scotland and the Catholic Church, let alone what those recidivists in Wales worship... 😉

And why are we all having a few days off next week?

I'm taking a few days off because every other lazy arse bastard is too and they don't want me banging and crashing round tneir houses. 🙂

If this is a Christian country then a LOT of people haven't read their bible.

I see nothing particularly christian out there...

Er.... i think quite a lot of folk might just see themselves as Church of Scotland and the Catholic Church, let alone what those recidivists in Wales worship...

Population of England 50 million +
Population f Scotland 5 million +
Population of Wales 3 million +
Population of N Ireland < 2 million

[b]Most[/b] people in the country see themselves as "Church of England"

And why are we all having a few days off next week?

Have you never heard of Beltain? You do know it's a subverted pagan festival?

And why are we all having a few days off next week?

EDIT: Too slow

Pagan mid-winter feast that the christians failed to stamp-out so they rebranded it. Safe to say it has no christian meaning at all.

It does to most Christians, which is all that matters. Who cares if it wasn't originally theirs - to most people, even those (the majority?) who understand it was originally a pagan festival and not historically accurate, it's a celebration of the Christian faith.

I bet the pagans stole it from somebody else.

it's a celebration of the Christian faith.

Do the other major religions have such a tradition of great music?

The two vital ingredients which all known societies have always had, throughout history and prehistory, and throughout the world, no matter how varied they might be, is religion and music.

Both of which on the face of it would appear unnecessary and pointless. But since I know of no exception to that rule then I reckon it must be accepted that those two requirements are a prerequisite for a successful society.

Certainly any societies which developed as atheist and music-free came to a dead-end, died a death, and left no trace of their existence.

Religion, music, and art, however pointless they might seem to be, are intrinsically linked with the exceptional evolutionary success of human society.

.

Strict adherence means they do neither

There is always a place for such frivolous activities when it comes to praising Allah.

An orgy of food, booze and stuff is a celebration of christian faith? Really?

Maybe not, but how about the nativity play - I believe a lot of schools still do one of those.

Maybe not, but how about the nativity play - I believe a lot of schools still do one of those.

An orgy of food, booze and stuff is a celebration of christian faith? Really?

Of course it's a celebration of christian faith.

Now you might not think that it's the best way to celebrate the christian faith, but that's a different issue all together. Christianity goes to the very heart of the Christmas celebrations, that's why it's celebrated in Britain rather than a Hindu, Muslim, or whatever other religious festival you care to choose.

wooooooohoooooooo... only four more sleeps til sostice..!! 😀 😀