Forum menu
"I doubt muslims think their religion is "based on another religion" - it's the word revealed to their prophet. Christians might agree that christianity is "based on" judaism, I suppose..."
These would be Muslims who aren't aware that Islam is rooted in Judaism then. Both Islam & Christianity trace back to Abraham.
the general consensus is that its so outdated its quite laughable
The general consensus in your head? Amongst your mates? On the STW forum? Because I'm fairly sure it's not the general consensus amongst the population at large.
[i]esselgrunts trolling,no one is that stupid![/i]
I don't usually do a TJ & don't normally read much news or media TBH, & don't even know how much of this item is true/untrue.
Don't troll either. can't be arsed.
[img] 
[/img]
Nick Cave has not won a boxing tournament.
"the general consensus is that its so outdated its quite laughable"
If it was right then, it'll be right now? Don't think there's a shelf-life on beliefs.
These would be Muslims who aren't aware that Islam is rooted in Judaism then. Both Islam & Christianity trace back to Abraham.
Don't get me wrong: I personally don't doubt that islam is rooted in the religious "landscape" around when it was born - including judaism - but I'd be very surprised to find a practising muslim saying their religion is based on another.
Nick Cave has not won a boxing tournament.
I haven't read the thread but that is quite beautiful
"the tolerance that Christianity demands of our society provides greater space for other religious faiths too"
actually the bible says unless you except Jesus as you lord and saviour you will go to hell, to fundamentalist Christian being a Muslim is the same as worshipping the devil.
"I'd be very surprised to find a practising muslim saying their religion is based on another."
Sounds like a challenge!
*Dons special Muslim hunting outfit*
From: http://answering-islam.org/Green/onbible.htm
The Qur'an teaches that Islam is the continued faithful religion in the same line as the Prophets who were before Muhammad: The same religion has He established for you as that which He enjoined on Noah ... and that which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus (42:13 AYA). The result of this view is that the scriptures given by these Prophets are considered to be genuine scriptures from God: But say, "We (Muslims) believe in the Revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you (Jews & Christians); our Allah and your Allah is One" (29:46 AYA).
Rob - where were you on my angry atheists thread? I'm sure you could have contributed something there 😉
OK so tell me why religion is NOT outdated then? If people still take the bible to be a good or true reflection of modern life, I find that incredibly hard to believe and also quite unerving!
I probably should have put 'the general concensus amongst rational free thinkers is...'
OK so tell me why religion is NOT outdated then? If people still take the bible to be a good or true reflection of modern life, I find that incredibly hard to believe and also quite unerving!
I guess it's not that it's a reflection of modern life, it's that it helps people cope with issues that appear in any life, at any time. Birth, death, stuff like that. I don't know any Christians (or, indeed, anyone of any religion) who actually believes the word of their religious book.
scientlogy is not outdated it is al Sci - fi ,aliens and space travel and all those modern memes we have from science/improved knowledge of the world
"Rob - where were you on my angry atheists thread? I'm sure you could have contributed something there "
I don't doubt it! However it was a bit long when I spotted it and I don't like to be late to the party 🙂
Yeah, but Scientology was made up by LRH as a joke - he'd think it's the funniest thing ever that people take it seriously.
The Qur'an teaches that Islam is the continued faithful religion in the same line as the Prophets who were before Muhammad: The same religion has He established for you as that which He enjoined on Noah ... and that which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus (42:13 AYA). The result of this view is that the scriptures given by these Prophets are considered to be genuine scriptures from God: But say, "We (Muslims) believe in the Revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you (Jews & Christians); our Allah and your Allah is One" (29:46 AYA).
"Same" is not the same as "based on", which is what I was arguing against.
oh shut up, everyone has an opinion or belief and right to it. so shut up! doesn't mean they are irrational.
Surrounded By Zulus - MemberI have now read the article in full....
That's damn decent of you. Most people who start a thread with a link usually don't bother reading it. Thank you.
does if they feel the presence of an entity that does not actually exist and for which we have no evidence of its existence i would say it is pretty much the actual definition of irrational
the fact it is culturally acceptable does not make it any more rational
Delusions are irrational beliefs, held with a high level of conviction, that are highly resistant to change even when the delusional person is exposed to forms of proof that contradict the belief. Non-bizarre delusions are considered to be plausible; that is, there is a possibility that what the person believes to be true could actually occur a small proportion of the time. Conversely, bizarre delusions focus on matters that would be impossible in reality. For example, a non-bizarre delusion might be the belief that one's activities are constantly under observation by federal law enforcement or intelligence agencies, which actually does occur for a small number of people. By contrast, a man who believes he is pregnant with German Shepherd puppies holds a belief that could never come to pass in reality. Also, for beliefs to be considered delusional, the content or themes of the beliefs must be uncommon in the person's culture or religion.Read more: Delusional disorder - define, causes, DSM, functioning, effects, therapy, paranoia, adults http://www.minddisorders.com/Br-Del/Delusional-disorder.html#b#ixzz1gjuvvGqX
ie we exempt religious belief from madness because they actually fit the definition - it is irrational we just accept it because it is common
you been watching Star Trek Junkyard? God exists as a human concept, and I'm fine with that human concept. Just go and unexplain that to 90% of the worlds rational human beings that are getting on with life and do beleive. I also believe in the human concept of Love. does any atheists want to prove a hug? I'm an atheist btw as in the way God is described.
i think people believe in god in the west as its a nicer was to view the world than the cold hard reality of atheism , of life's shit then you die and rot in the ground.
By definition, faith is not rational, but rationality does not mean knowledge is complete, it merely means it is determined by reason and evidence. The Catholic Church's "Fides et Ratio" holds, inter alia, that rationality and faith are both essential, and therefore hardly mutually exclusive.
As a matter of constitution, the Prime Minster is correct, our constitutional church is Christian. The law developed in this country is also largely based on Christian doctrine so again he is right. What he is not saying is everyone or even the majority are Christians.
As for a Prime Minster talking about religion, he was addressing an event celebrating the 400th anniversary of the King James Bible - I imagine it was kind of expected.
its a nicer was to view the world than the cold hard reality of atheism , of life's shit then you die and rot in the ground.
What's not nice about the live, die, rot idea? I actually think it's quite beautiful.
slainte ➡ rob
I have not seen star trek for years ...... but i have memorised them all 😉
What's not nice about the live, die, rot idea. I actually think it's quite beautiful.
Back into the amazing recycling system of earth!
reality of atheism
Atheism not belief based then?
Dear jumpupanddown,
My life is not shit; I smile [b]a lot[/b].
Hugz,
Rob.
why did I post that I sound like a right nob. Space girl in green you would eh Junkyard?
I probably should have put 'the general concensus amongst rational free thinkers is...'
Ah - and your definition of "rational free thinker" is somebody who agrees with you?
I thought the OP was, 'Is the UK a Christian Country?'
So how do you get on about the origins of Islam from that?
A reminder, just to get us back on track like.
The major Ibrahamic religions stole some wonderful ideas from secular society and rebranded them as their own:
You know the ones:
Treating others like you'd like to be treated yourself, don't get jiggly with her next door, prawns go off in the sun, always wash yer knob, etc etc
Now, if there was an omnipotent being I'd like her to answer the important existential stuff, not just to be some celestial agony aunt.
Best just to treat everyone you meet as an opportunity to take the best out of humanity.
"I think that people are the greatest fun."
Spot on Arthur.
What's not nice about the [s]live[/s] [b]consume[/b], die, rot idea?
sorry to burst your bubble there Rob.. it's almost beautiful except for that one glaring defect..
🙁
[img] 
[/img]
"Judge not, that ye be not judged"
Matthew 7:1
For all its religion bashing, this is something STW would do well to remember at times. I was just saying to Mrs Grips the other day that I thought the forum had made progress, but had a little slip today haven't we?
Anyway, re the OP - this is not a Christian country. It is a country in which the majority are Christian. Christianity was imported once, you know.
Of course the UK is a Christian country. Christianity, specifically Anglican Christianity is big business :
Value of investment portfolio £5.3bn
Fixed interest equities £3.5bn
Property, loans, short-term deposits £1.8bn
Return on investments 15.2%
Annual investment income £177.8m
Central land holdings: 112,000 acres
Local land holdings: 129,000 acres
To emphasise the connection between the C of E and the state:
Thirty-three Church Commissioners manage the property and stock market assets of the Church of England. Six of these commissioners who have ex officio membership hold state office. They include the prime minister and the sport & culture minister. All the commissioners are accountable to Parliament.
The UK is a secular country. We have some anachronisms from an earlier age but the majority of people in the UK are non believers
Here come the Angry Atheists again.
Atheist here. Not Angry about it (so far).
The UK is a Christian country. There is an established religion that determines the head of state (or possibly the other way around 😕 ). The constitution has at its heart a Christian concept. Christian metaphors and language permeates the dominant language. The country's timetable is organised around Christian events and the Christian sabbath. Most of the population professes Christianity (even if they never actually show up to a church). Christian organisations are major providers of education.
I can't see how anyone would argue that the UK is not a Christian country - if any non-theocratic country can be described as being of any religion.
"Many people tell me it is much easier to be Jewish or Muslim here in Britain than it is in a secular country like France," he said.
[img]data:image/jpeg;base64,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[/img]
Why? Because the tolerance that Christianity demands of our society provides greater space for other religious faiths too.
No - because in France an assimilationist approach was adopted in the 50s and 60s whereas in the UK a multicultural approach was adopted. The French model was inherently flawed and doomed because it was predicated on the existence of a unitary French culture into which everyone could fit, which ignored the past, the present (of the time) and the likely future.
The idea of Britain as a 'christian country' is a hangover from the Christendom worldview that has its origins in the Constantinian Settlement which took place nearly 2,000 year ago. It represented the point where the early church swapped uncertainty and intermittent persecution at the hands of the Romans for a seat at the table of power and influence. It's understandable why that opportunity was attractive at the time, but with the benefit of hindsight, many Christians in the west now consider that decision to be the worst thing the church ever did.
Conversely, the perception that Western Europe is now in a period that is termed 'post-Christendom' is seen as a tremendous opportunity for the Christians in the west to rediscover a more constructive relationship with wider society. In particular, I'd like to see us free from politicians like Cameron who feel at liberty to co-opt a domesticated version of Christianity for their own ends. If he really believed what he read in the Bible, he would be terrified to allow the marginalisation of the poor and needy in the way he does.
Speaking as a Christian, I have no desire at all to serve as a chaplain for David Cameron's vision of a society hopelessly addicted to the acquisition of wealth without thought for the consequence.
When a politician is so bereft of ideas that, having failed to sell the only nonsense he had to offer ("Big Society") he resorts to proselytising on behalf of risible superstitious gibberish as a way forward, he merits only the receipt of contempt.
The UK is a secular country. We have some anachronisms from an earlier age but the majority of people in the UK are non believers
You do realise that one doesn't necessarily follow the other? I suspect you'll also find a lot more people than you think are "believers" in so far as they believe in something. Going to church every week (or even once a year) isn't a necessary pre-requisite to being a Christian.
When a politician is so bereft of ideas that, having failed to sell the only nonsense he had to offer ("Big Society") he resorts to proselytising on behalf of risible superstitious gibberish as a way forward, he merits only the receipt of contempt.
So did you read the link, Mr Woppit? Just as far as the 2nd sentence will do. What else do you expect him to talk about in a speech about the bible?
Those posters on here who don't read links and/or twist everything to suit their own political agenda are far more worthy of contempt.
What else do you expect him to talk about in a speech about the bible?
He should keep his bizarre weekend activities to himself, frankly.
he resorts to proselytising on behalf of risible superstitious gibberish as a way forward
Very true, but he's not the only one who continues to believe in the efficacy of capitalism, despite all the evidence to the contrary
This may seem at first glance to be a little americanized but seeing as we're a subsidiary of USA PLC I thought it relevant..