[Closed] Is Kettling Morally Wrong?

should post this at 10 am monday morning or something. people are sleeping or riding bikes on a weekend. god knows why

I think it's marvellous how here in Britain at the first sign of trouble the police put the kettle on.

There's nothing better than sorting out what's what over a nice cup of tea.

ernie_lynch - Member

I think it's marvellous how here in Britain at the first sign of trouble the police put the kettle on.

There's nothing better than sorting out what's what over a nice cup of tea.

C'mon ernie, i'm pandering to your left wing tendencies. Is this the best you can do?

Don't you pander my tendencies.

Cheeky ****er.

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bacon flavour crisps

i'll put the kettle on but it's stictlty cocoa, we're losing an hours sleep you know.

ermmm, isn't what has worked in/around football stadiums huge police escorts surrounding the travelling fans and marching them between transport links and the ground, and "containing" trouble?
Certainly what happens in Sheffield anyway.
p.s. was there a kettle on during today? I thought there was a bit of a demo down London way...

i'll put the kettle on but it's stictlty cocoa, we're losing an hours sleep you know.

But they got an extra hour's pay for nowt!

EDIT Changed my mind.

Would I be playing devil's avocate if i suggested that your average PC Plod is thick as two short planks, doesn't give a damn about justice, loves a good punch up and is there, "in for a penny in for a pound" to notch up some overtime?

I'm sure among low-level officers there's a mix of responses: some will like the overtime, some'll be on the lookout for a bit of macho action, some would much rather be out riding bikes/eating curry/alphabetising their record collection than at work and some will think that if you're going to be working, there are better things to be doing than this shit.

But in any case, none of the decision to kettle at the moment, the strategy for the event on the day and the entire approach to policing demonstrations and political events is made at a much higher pay grade than any PC Plod who wants extra overtime.

PS - is kettling morally wrong? It depends on its use. If it's a proportional response to a genuinely apprehended public order problem, for example, then no. If it's merely intended to disrupt legal activity or is used disproportionately, then yes.

http://www.urban75.org/mayday01/s60.html (legal background, possibly superseded by legislation in the last decade)

You talk some pish.So some people will be plucked from the demo, who decides who gets lifted; You?...Anyway,as a can't do public servant,I am away out to train a DoE group in my own time.

Is the politicisation of the police morally wrong?

Without it there would be no kettle....

You talk some pish.[b][i]So some people will be plucked from the demo, who decides who gets lifted; You?...Anyway,as a can't do public servant,[/i][/b]I am away out to train a DoE group in my own time.

I have no idea what the bit in bold means.

I don't think you'd be playing devil's advocate as much as talking nonsense.

I'm sure among low-level officers there's a mix of responses: some will like the overtime, some'll be on the lookout for a bit of macho action, some would much rather be out riding bikes/eating curry/alphabetising their record collection than at work and some will think that if you're going to be working, there are better things to be doing than this shit.

But in any case, none of the decision to kettle at the moment, the strategy for the event on the day and the entire approach to policing demonstrations and political events is made at a much higher pay grade than any PC Plod who wants extra overtime.

Far and away the most sensible thing to appear on this thread thus far. Some will also (believe it or not), sympathise with the views of the protesters but simply be getting on with their job.

I think it's more morally wrong to join what was meant to be a peaceful protest and kick off, thus causing more cost to be incurred and reducing the already tight budgets. Normal short sightedness really.

So some people will be plucked from the demo, who decides who gets lifted; You?...Anyway,as a can't do public servant

if we are going to remove individual people from a demo who exactly will decide which ones we remove will it be you? As a lazy public servant who does no work [certainly less that the vibrant efficeint private sector] but I am off on a Sunday to do work for free to help young people achieve their D of E award. It is a shame your teachers were not as good as this one 😉

Kettling may be an appropriate response to circumstances. However it is the rossers modus operandi to any protest these days which strikes me as anti democratic and it is likely to provoke a reaction from the trapped majority rather than actually prevent the minority [who are there just to cuase trouble] from causing trouble.

but I am off on a Sunday to do work for free to help young people achieve their D of E award.

this is also done by people employed in the private sector

in fact companies such as TNT actively support thr scheme with practical aspects including the big truck/ trailer

hopefully this won't discourage your valuable contribution and the DofE scheme can continue for many years to come with everyone supporting it 🙂

The containment seems intended to prevent the uncontrolled spread of the protesters, to protect the streets. But, as the name "kettling" suggests, it causes crowding and mild agitating to reach boiling point. Violence seems inevitable.

So it's moral in that it protects property, and immoral since is promotes harm to protesters and policemen. Since I value people higher than property, I think it might be immoral.

Conspiracy theory: provoking violence discredits the legitimacy of the protests, and serves the status quo. Don't blame the policemen - they are merely the instrument, not the hand that wields authority.

My own thoughts are that the kettling of protesters is illegal (no reference and echo the comment above about the possibility of that notion's suspension by new, probably anti-terror, legislation).

I'd also make a distincion here between 'The Police' and 'The Metropolitan Police'. The Met have something of a history of being rather heavy handed when it comes to public order issues so the fact that they employ this tactic comes as no surprise to me.

Finally, following conversation with a senior police officer of my acquaintance, I discovered that 'kettling' flies in the face of normally accepted public order tactics: I am told that when the police, for whatever reason, deploy to break up and disperse a body of people, it is imperative that they are given a route of escape. The reason for this is simple, if you charge anyone, the normal reaction is to flee. If you deny them this, then their only remaining action is to turn and face you and fight.

So...in a nutshell...morally wrong, yes. Lacking in common sense? Yes.

Far and away the most sensible thing to appear on this thread thus far.

Thanks. I am by the way one of those yoghurt-weaving do-gooders whose instinct is usually to disbelieve anything a police officer says. But all the same, if there's a conspiracy to criminalise dissent, it doesn't come from the bottom up just so someone can get some overtime!

Fortunately the Libyans are going to enforce a no-fly zone on the UK to allow our people's protest to continue unhindered...

The Met have something of a history of being rather heavy handed when it comes to public order issues .......

I won't dispute that. But the important word here is "history". Yesterday's demo was by far the most lightly policed demo I have ever seen. Basically the march and rally was not policed at all - all that was done by TUC stewards. There was no trouble on the march and at the rally.

Fair enough ernie. As I wasn't there I was trying not to comment on yesterdays demo and stick to commenting purely on the tactic of kettling.

...

Shall we hug?

Fortunately the Libyans are going to enforce a no-fly zone on the UK to allow our people's protest to continue unhindered...

I understand that Muammar Gadaffi has expressed regret for meeting with the leaders of a militaristic regime which has used heavy-handed tactics to [url= http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/laurie-penny/2010/11/children-police-kettle-protest ]repress [/url]its people.

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Is the politicisation of the police morally wrong?

Without it there would be no kettle....

Good point. Thing is, if the police are using illegal tactics to contain a crowd, then those contained have every right to use reasonable force to prevent such illegal detention. The police have to understand, if they use provocative tactics, then they may be met with violence. At the end of the day, police officers are there to uphold Law and Order; if they are acting contrary to the Law, then the very people they are charged with protecting have the right and duty to resist.

Thing is, the police mostly get it right, at demos and that. The student demos last year, they got it wrong.

And if the police then become agents of a government, as we have seen, then their legitimacy evaporates, and they are fair game for any violent resistance. Ultimately, they are individuals capable of independent thought and judgement. If they chose to follow orders which are unlawful, then they themselves are willingly participating in criminal activity. So if they get bashed, then it's down to the personal choices they've made. Everyone has the right to say no if their orders mean the subsequent action will be unlawful, in fact, it's their legal duty.

This link was posted on another thread on the forum, but its very enlightening when it comes to "legal" issues.

[url= http://bbc5.tv/eyeplayer/video/john-harris-its-illusion ]It's an illusion.[/url]

Couple of posters referring to the illegality of kettling. It is not illegal.

Margin Walker - Member
Couple of posters referring to the illegality of kettling. It is not illegal.

Aggrevated trespass and criminal damage are, however. Oh, teh irony.....

Couple of posters referring to the illegality of kettling. It is not illegal.

It is. Regardless of what the police might say. It's illegally detaining people against their will, who have committed no crime, and denying them access to food, toilets, medical help etc. Preventing people from exercising their legal right to move freely and without hindrance, and to demonstrate publicly. That the courts have too often bin too impotent to administer Justice doesn't make Kettling any more legal. We'll soon see the practice outlawed. Many top coppers think it's illegal, as do many judges, barristers, Human Rights groups etc. sadly I think it will take the death of someone contained in a kettle, to change the way the tactic is employed.

Unfortunately Elfin, kettling is not illegal.

If the urban dictionary definitions of kettling is anything to go on, then yes.

It is. Do yer research. Any action which prevents people from enjoying their legal rights, without sufficient reason, is illegal. It's to do with the Human Rights Act of 1998, which follows Article 5 of the European Convention of Human Rights. Just because certain judgements in cases against the police have been wrong, don't mean that Kettling is actually legal. It just means there have been Miscarriages of Justice.

Aggrevated trespass and criminal damage

Many top coppers think it's illegal, as do many judges, barristers, Human Rights groups etc. sadly

do they??

Only challenge to kettling is on a HR basis, not on its legality. Last case determined a restristcion of someone's liberty is not a deprivation of liberty and as such the case failed. House of Lords decision (must have been a day when all the barristers, judges you refer to were on holiday perhaps)

Bored now - see ya

(ps that answer was based on legal research and not google/urban dictionary definitions etc)

I am sure some hunters with dogs break the law should we kettle them at the start

Already happens. Often plenty of police around as well......Nice nip from the stirrup cup before starting out, lovely! 😉

(ps that answer was based on legal research and not google/urban dictionary definitions etc)

Yeah right course it was. 🙄

'Detention' under certain criteria is legal. 'Kettling', which involves deliberate provocation of people by aggressive police actions, is illegal.

See ya!

If the tactic is illegal then someone must have sucessfully prosecuted the police by now. Can't seem to find any documented cases though, can you help Fred ?

It's only a matter of time. Cases are going through courts as we speak.

Jean Charles De Menezes was murdered. Ian Tomlinson as unlawfully killed. Etc. Just because the Law has failed to see Justice served, doesn't make the facts any different.

Or does a wrong judgement change a Law?

So that's none then ?

is this anything like tea-bagging but using police horses?

Protest = fights. a simple a sad fact, the law can and should take any preventitive action to stop innocet people and their property taking a beating.

If the tactic is illegal then someone must have sucessfully prosecuted the police by now. Can't seem to find any documented cases though, can you help Fred ?

It's gone to the EUCHR, they may rule differently from the Law lords. I find it disturbing that people support such a tatic that technically imprisons people while they are expressing their right to protest.

The police do not "kettle", politicians and local councils in conjunction with the Chief Consatable for that area often apply to have a march banned and allow a static protest for the good/protection of the local population. Then the yob element refuses to protest peacfully and the police contain them so they don't cause destruction/serious injury. Fire extingushers from buildings, fireworks in to crowds, racial attacks, damage to property, attacks on Royal Family....shall I go on. People aren't detained illegally they are there by their own free will and choose to scream at and attack the police. How many people were arrested at the marches in London...201. Not to mention 100 street cleaners to clean grafiti and litter.
The damage from the "students" last demonstration cost £50,000!!!! I think the minority ruin it for the majority.

no a proper way of containing these people , also the wearing of maskes should also be illegal, unless they are ugly t$%ts then they can stay coverd, i have no problem seeing the violent ones being hosed down with water cannons.

People aren't detained illegally they are there by their own free will

No one , I assume , is saying the police should ignore rioting what people are saying is you cannot kettle everyone because some might riot.

no a proper way of containing these people , also the wearing of maskes should also be illegal, unless they are ugly t$%ts then they can stay coverd, i have no problem seeing the violent ones being hosed down with water cannons.

Now now...

...not all coppers are violent, ugly thugs. 🙂

I was on Oxford St yesterday, totally unaware of the demo at the time. Was quite impressed that the police were maintaining a visible prescence in the area 😀 Then saw the rows of riot squad outside the banks etc.

Ducked into a sidestreet as I was a bit concerned for my wife who is 7 months pregnant. Unfortunately, this sidestreet ended at an HSBC so we saw some bricks and other stuff being thrown. My wife was very interested; being from Poland she wanted to see how our demos worked 8) Thought I'd best get her in the pub at that point though. We could very easily have ended up in the wrong place at the wrong time though, and as such I'm no fan of kettling.

The wearing of masks can is is made illegal during the times of the demo by the local chief officer by way of a Sec 60. I do not know what constitutes kettling? Have you ever been held against you will? Sadly this is the way these demonstrations will continue to be held while they cause so much damage/injury/fear. Every one from students, EDL, MDL, Anti-Cut protesters seem to want to wreck the streets, cause damage and attack people opposing their view. If they want to protest peacfully in line with the rules/laws set down around that protest.

If you went in to a pub how were you "kettled" or held against your will. I assume you would have preferred the brick throwing "peacefull" protesters be allowed to rampage the city throwing their "peacful" bricks as they please?

Have you ever been held against you will?

Yep. Whilst not committing any crime or breaking any law. Have had to, with others, use violence to overpower police officers detaining us illegally. Reasonable force, of course. If others are breaking the law against you, you have the right to use whatever necessary means to ensure your own safety and freedom.

Seen coppers breaking all sorts of laws, using unreasonable force, illegally detaining people, removing their identification numbers, using violence against people exercising their democratic right to protest in a peaceful manner, all sorts.

Tell you what, why not go to a demo one day, see what it's actually like, rather than simply reading about it in the press?

I've no doubt many of those supporting police kettling tactics would actually be far too cowardly to actually go and make a public stand for what they believed in. When you've got dozens of uniformed thugs coming at you with shields and batons, for no justifiable reason whatsoever, then tell me their actions are correct. Easy to spout shite if you've never bin in that situation yourself.

It can be an effective tactic and I think it's one they should have access to if only they could be trusted- anyone who saw how effectively the black bloc element was locked down on the make poverty history march in edinburgh a few years back will appreciate what it can achieve done right, removing a small violent group from a peaceful march... Morally wrong? I'd say in that case morally right, perhaps the right to protest of that small group of imported anarchists was suppressed but the other quarter of a million were able to march without having a bunch of nutcases using it as a platform for causing trouble.

But unfortunately, it's very easily abused. From what I've seen personally, it's more often abused than used well, though I've no idea if that's truly representative. My feeling is that on balance, the way it's used now is too often counterproductive and too often impacts the innocent.

I've been kettled while on a completely peaceful demonstration and I've watched the mood of the crowd turn from carnival to anger. I wasn't at all surprised to see conflicts develop, and when later in the day serious violence broke out, I'm certain that the abuse of kettling was if not the cause then certainly a contributing factor- people had lost faith and trust in the police and saw them as the enemy, when at the start of the day we were neighbours.

I don't have any real suggestions for how constraints could be put on that abuse, ultimately if the authorities can't be trusted to use a tool safely and correctly I believe it has to be taken away from them, no matter how useful it is.

As the great philosopher Benjamin Parker said, with great power comes great responsibility, and I believe that when that power is taken away the responsibility will lie with those who abused it.

When you've got dozens of balaclava wearing thugs coming at you with rocks and metal poles, for no justifiable reason whatsoever, then tell me their actions are correct. Easy to spout shite if you've never bin in that situation yourself.

FTFY....

I have seen far more than my share of demos up close and very personal, I have been bricked, spat at, assaulted had fire works thrown at me had people threaten to rape my wife and children, had p!ss and acid thrown at me. Not too mention nail bombs and worse!!
The police may detain you to prevent crime, so whilst being contained during your peaceful protest you "with others, use violence to overpower police officers" That would be a further offence of assult a constable!

If you went in to a pub how were you "kettled" or held against your will.

I assume you would have preferred the brick throwing "peacefull" protesters be allowed to rampage the city throwing their "peacful" bricks as they please?

The police may detain you to prevent crime

You do not need to be cautioned to be detained to prevent crime only if you're arrested.

Yes obviously anyone who is suggesting kettling is wrong is supports lawlessness.

Nope. They were breaking the law by illegally detaining us. We used reasonable force to rectify matters.

We're not talking about times when it's already kicked off, we're talking about when a demo is peaceful, then police suddenly decide to kettle people. I've seen that happen, several times. And if people react angrily to police violence, then it's no flipping surprise, is it? Just cos you've got a uniform on, don't mean you can take liberties. You use unreasonable force against me, expect it back.

The police certainly have a difficult job to do, yet they are obliged to do it exactly according to the Law. Yesterday, it appears things were policed correctly, overall. The vast majority of protestors acted within the Law, and there was only a relatively small amount of trouble, carried out by a tiny fraction of all the people there.

What a shame the focus isn't on 'oh how surprisingly peaceful the demo was'. Maybe that's not sexy enough for the media...

I have been bricked, spat at, assaulted had fire works thrown at me had people threaten to rape my wife and children, had p!ss and acid thrown at me. Not too mention nail bombs and worse!!

Stop going to pensioners' Bingo night then!

I wouldn't have said 201 people arrested was particularly peaceful!! Bing as they were protesting against government cuts they have cost the tax payer an inordinate amount of money.
The police have both the power and the duty to control an assembly this I assume is what you mean by "kettling" this comes from the Public Order Act. You appear to have then chosen to "with others, use violence to overpower police officers" this is not a peaceful assembly and this is what starts trouble.

you are a copper then 😆

so you can just stop me walking down the street and keep me there indefinitely without charge because you somehow know I am about to commit a crime? would that hold up in court outside of kettling?
Opposing kettling does not means supporting rioting

Any chance you could explain how going to the pub is like kettling?

Let's see how many of those 201 people arrested actually end up in court. I doubt many will be charged with owt that serious. Bit of criminal damage maybe, breach of peace, that sort of thing. And we don't yet know how many have actually even bin charged with anything. And 201 out of over 200,000? Less than 0.1%? I'd say that's a tiny minority, wouldn't you?

You appear to have then chosen to "with others, use violence to overpower police officers" this is not a peaceful assembly and this is what starts trouble.

Yes, but only following police aggression. I have no problem with the police doing their job, but if they start pushing and shoving people for no valid reason, then they'll get pushed and shoved back. Fair's fair.

That uniform and badge don't mean you can go round throwing yer weight about. You still have to act within the Law.

you seem to think kettling will calm people down I have no idea why.
Kettling people annoys them ...surely you are meant to control, pacify and arrest wrongdoers not piss of thousands of people exercising their democratic rights?
There may well be good reason to do this at time but it is now your modus operandi rather than a tactic employed due to the situation on the ground. why not stop football fans going to matches as there are often arrests there?Surely that would calm the situation down and lead to fewer arrests and less aggro if they missed the match and were held at the station for 6 hours instead?

Richpenny seemed to think he was "kettled" so he went in to the pub, I don't understand how he was kettled.
Yes you can be stopped in the street to prevent a crime, this is not indefinite and is until you are arrested or you are no longer going to commit a crime. If you are shouting and having an argument in the street you can be stopped (detained) to prevent you from committing public order offences. Assuming you then calm down youy could be then sent on your way. However it is not always possible/practicable for arrests to be made at the scene of the incident.

I've no doubt many of those supporting police kettling tactics would actually be far too cowardly to actually go and make a public stand for what they believed in. When you've got dozens of uniformed thugs coming at you with shields and batons, for no justifiable reason whatsoever, then tell me their actions are correct. Easy to spout shite if you've never bin in that situation yourself.

where were you on saturday 26/03/11? 😉

They were breaking the law by illegally detaining us. We used reasonable force to rectify matters

you personally used violence against a police officer?

In answer to the original question yes it is morally right to contain a static protest. As yet no one has come up with any realistic alternative.

so someone calm could leave a kettling scenario then as presumably there is no evidence of intent?

to be fair no matter what coppers do people will be unhappy you have a balance to maintain between upholding democracy and preventing crime. i find kettling to be too broad a stroke to prevent* the later and curtail the former.
* not least because the VAST majority of those affected by kettling will not be about to commit any crime

Only a complete and utter retard could fail to realise that kettling a group of protesters will only end up making things boil over. As someone said it earlier, if you remove the flight option of dealing with fear all you have left is fight.

In answer to the original question yes it is morally right to contain a static protest.

Why?

I'd love to hear your views on this actually. Why, as a police officer, you think it's ok to contain people within an area, when they are committing no crimes. Why, as a police officer, you think it's ok to prevent people from exercising their legal right to move freely within a public area as part of a legitimate peaceful protest.

You sure you're in the right job?

Never felt that I was kettled nick, wanted to get my wife inside in case it did kick off a bit more. The point was more that we were innocent bystanders, and yet had the mob chosen to move towards us we could have been caught up in it through no fault of our own. Just pointing out that not only peaceful protesters but also those with no interest whatsoever are capable of being in the same place temporarily as mindless idiots. And thus kettling seems a bit untargeted.

You do not know what job I am in and you are making broad assumptions!
I'm still waiting for anyone to suggest a viable and practical alternative. Should society let protesters run amok leaving grafiti and damage wherever they go, no thanks. I don't understand why if you have chosen to attend a demonstration that has been banned as a march and is now a static demonstration you then think you're allowed to go off and march any way. Thnat is what would happen in dribs and drabs people leaving would go off on their march route and the march would take place this ould then be an offence!

But you weren't and there is no reason to belive you would have been, and hey maybe the police who prevented the brick throwing "peaceful" protesters going where they wanted causing more damage, actually saved you and your family from injury!

I have an alternative. It's to treat everyone fairly, make sure that nobody is exploited to make anyone rich, ensure that taxes are paid and that politicians and public servants act in the best interests of everyone they represent. It'll never happen though.

Should society let protesters run amok leaving grafiti and damage wherever they go, no thanks.

You seem to be tarring all protesters with the same brush.

I don't understand why if you have chosen to attend a demonstration that has been banned as a march and is now a static demonstration you then think you're allowed to go off and march any way.

No one should be allowed to ban a march.

I'm still waiting for anyone to suggest a viable and practical alternative.

Let TUC members steward demos; they appear to have done a pretty good job at the main march and rally yesterday. 😐

TBH, you're just missing the point entirely and now making up scenarios to try and support your argument. I think we're done here anyway really.

So what job are you in then?

problem with that SBZ is that the troublemakers at these protests are there to cause trouble for no other reason than for kicks, not because they've been mistreated

The very small amount of criminal activity that I saw seemed to be dealt with by the police watching what was happening and then capturing those they saw offending. That's a viable and practical alternative, no? And my point was always that it's possible to find yourself in the middle of these events fairly easily, since they are in public places. Having made my way freely to a public place, I would not expect or appreciate being confined in it. FWIW, the police I saw seemed to be doing a good job 🙂

Elfin you're quite right we're done, clearly you and only you are right you just enjoy causing trouble and exploiting a situation to do it, well done you!
Brakes you are entirely right and those that organise the demos take no responsibility for who turns up or what they do.
El-bent a march can be banned but a static demo can't. FACT
And at that I'm off.

Yeah, we pretty much know that, Brakes, and so does anyone with the ability to think for themselves. As I've pointed out, only 0.1% or less of all those who attended were arrested; indeed I think it's fair to say those who did cause trouble are simply hijacking the event for their own ends anyway. 99.9% were there to demonstrate peacefully. I think that is a fact we should all be thankful for really, as it proves the overwhelming majority of folk are decent, law-abiding citizens. 🙂