In all fairness Ernie, she was Polish not American.
Well I guess I must have been misled by the fact that she was born in New York.
But thanks for pointing that out anyway 8)
OK, Half American.
As a half-American billionaire once famously said, "only the little people pay taxes"
You only have to consider who the people that end up getting kettled are to realise that the police deserve our full support over kettling.
Very good Ernest 🙂
You only have to consider who the people that end up getting kettled are to realise that the police deserve our full support over kettling.
What a packet of poo. So, if you don't agree with a protest then the police should be able to use unreasonable force and violence against protestors? That's not very democratic, is it?
Another who's never bin to a demo where kettling has bin employed... 🙄
Well whether or not you agree/have the faintest idea what you are talking about/disagree/are scared the cuts are going ahead. So will the protests and so will the direct actions, both violent and passive.
I like the fact that a generation of young people are becoming politicised by this, I like it that they are getting off their arses and thinking for themselves, hell I even like the fact they're prepared to break a few windows (it's only glass). Is this Cameron's big society in action? I suspect it is, but not in any form that a Tory could understand.
Why are WE paying for the failures of a political system built on corporate greed? I'm still a bit unsure on that, could someone explain?
Elfinsafety - Member
What a packet of poo. So, if you don't agree with a protest then the police should be able to use unreasonable force and violence against protestors?
Yeah, pretty much.
Anything that upsets professionally working class (as opposed to working class professionals) ultra-bores and cosseted middle class faux-anarchists is just fine by me.
It's not as if they're keeping you from getting to work, is it?
😉
You only have to consider who the people that end up getting kettled are to realise that the police deserve our full support over kettling.
If it was that simple, kettling wouldn't be so controversial, would it?
"Not by smashing random shop windows and screaming at random public sector workers.
Do you actually know what you're on about?"
Certain people conveniently forget that police are public sector workers too. They are facing pay freezes/cuts and increase in pensions payments for less for longer. Can they go on a mass smash and grab through London?
Mr ElfinSafety - I'm intrigued:
[i]"I know a feller who works for a company his dad set up, which is actually a registered charity. Now, I'm not sure how this all works, but this bloke don't take a salary, he takes out 'loans' from the charity's account, which are indefinite and have no interest payable. Somehow, don't ask me how, this means he doesn't have to pay any income tax whatsoever. None. Yet he enjoys free health care, education for his kids, etc etc. "[/i]
Charity accounts are readily accessible, and all charities are regulated by The Charity Commission, so it should be pretty easy to confirm the relevant facts in your post.
If you're willing to name the Charity you've referred to we can then look at the facts for ourselves.
Perhaps you can also confirm given your apparent strength of feeling whether you've contacted the Charity Commission yourself to tell them your concerns about the way the charity is being managed and whether it's really trying to meet its charitable aims?
I avoid tax, I have ISA's.
Don't know about the charity thing, but most /many will have been fed some BS at some stage that they later reflect on and which then causes to re-think how they view things.
I worked for a small, succesful company. Started by a small pool of prefessionals, some of whom were shareholding directors, some of whom were dedicated, motivated staff who worked equally as hard in the hope of building a bigger, more succesful business.
During the early tears "we are all in this together" - striving to make the business a success. Opportunities for growth and personal promotion and betterment... future directorships dangled etc.
A few years in and grown by 10x and it's more them and us. Ladder is being pulled up now. Those that worked hard to grow the business are now getitng fobbed off - they've developed hugely as practising professionals and now want the pay and recognition. Pushing at pay reveiws for a fair deal in an increasingly competitive labour market, one answer that comes back is that we only pay ourselves "x", therefore you have to be "x"-1...
Of course, find out later that "x" is somewhere close to the tax threshold, as advised by the acountants. A tax efficient figure, which also effectively acts as a cap to the rest of the team. All the while the hypocrites who spin you that line are paying themselves almost as much again in shares from the holding company...
soulwood - MemberOn a slightly different note, I think the protestors are all a bit daft actually. If you want to bring down a system everyone knows you do it quietly and from within. Not by smashing random shop windows and screaming at random public sector workers.
Just to state the bleedin obvious but "the protestors" don't act as a block, what proportion of the total crowd were smashing shope windows do you reckon?
Berm Bandit - MemberRefering to the OP: What is morally wrong is anarchists hijacking every flaming protest nowadays which is effectively creating a situation whereby the right to protest for the ordinary man in the street is becoming severely eroded.
What would be morally wrong here, would be eroding the right of the ordinary man to protest because of the actions of another group.
Of course, find out later that "x" is somewhere close to the tax threshold, as advised by the acountants. A tax efficient figure, which also effectively acts as a cap to the rest of the team. All the while the hypocrites who spin you that line are paying themselves almost as much again in shares from the holding company...
That sucks but not much you can do. Get another job ?
That sucks but not much you can do. Get another job ?
Left 10 years ago - doing similar job for more thsan double the salary. That partly reflects additional experience, responsibility and expertise, of course, but wouldn't have progressed if I had stayed
Pretty much all of us who were in from / close to the start bailed as we realised that all the promises were BS.
Quite instructive in the ways of capitlaism - even in a small firm setting. Ironically, I'm not "anti-capitalist" per-se. Just can't stand for hypocrisy, double dealing and treating people badly. Someone in my current firm said recently - "we respect the person, not the position". I quite like that.
Thanks Fred; edit appreciated 😀 Good point by Northwind;when is tipping point reached,when ordinary people decide that the potential for being caught up in any violence outweighs their desire to march and protest?
Here's the latest footage of many of those arrested.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/mar/28/cuts-protest-uk-uncut-fortnum
SCUM!!!!
Oh dear. That bit of video is quite damning, isn't it? I think calling the police 'scum' is maybe a tad strong, but hey ho.
So, an ostensibly peaceful demonstration, albeit one involving trespass, is dealt with using quite a disproportionate amount of force. Those people certainly weren't acting aggressively, were they?
And of all those arrested, 138 were in F+M. So mostly simply aggravated trespass then. Hardly major crime really, is it? Yer average Friday night town centre will be a fair bit livelier.
All blown up out of all proportion. Cheeze... 🙄
It was a pretty scummy thing to do though!
By my reckoning ~70% of total arrests were people from F&M? Then again "60 arrests" makes it sound like a tiny minority of trouble makers but get it into the hundreds and it sounds more menacing...[/tinfoil hat]
I'd like to give them an opportunity to respond, to see if they can come up with any justification for that at all. But I'd be surprised.
(before anyone says "You only saw the edited video, they could have been causing trouble after they left the store"- yes they could but you can hear the charges and one is aggravated trespass, so he's not being arrested for some off-camera offence)
That footage is deeply depressing rightplacerighttime. It's certainly a long time since I've seen something which undermines my faith in the police quite as much as that. My trust in the police had slowly built over a number of years, I'm afraid that now it's almost back to square one - I had really thought that the police had improved a lot in recent years after some spectacular failings.
What makes it so sinister is the calm and devious manner which the officers deliberately lie and abuse the trust which the protesters reluctantly put on them. Abuse of trust by those in position of responsibility is particularly repugnant. Those young protesters will remember that for the rest of their lives - they will have considerably less trust in the police from now on.
Although I'm sure it won't, I hope it doesn't put UK Uncut off from carrying on with their protests, they're a good bunch who get up off their arses and try to make a difference. They combine their peaceful protests with entertainment and comic effect, dressing up and adding an amusing angle to their message to shoppers, all terribly middle-class college student type stuff, but immeasurably more acceptable and effective than the actions of those other middle-class tossers the Black Bloc and their mindless rampaging.
I also hope that as result of that footage disciplinary action is taken, those coppers responsible should lose their jobs - I don't want my taxes to the Met be used to employ thoroughly dishonest individuals......but I don't suppose for a moment that it will.
And yes, I'm accepting all that evidence in the video on face value before any inquiry has been carried out. As far as I'm concerned it is immeasurably more reliable than anything I might read in the newspapers. People are happy to accept what they read in the papers or see on the TV news as being true without a public enquiry, I'm happy to accept the evidence in a video which I have no reason to believe is fake.
Why are WE paying for the failures of a political system built on corporate greed? I'm still a bit unsure on that, could someone explain?
Reference the above, do you see the political system as being democracy, or do you mean the particular form of democracy we have? In general I struggle to see democracy as being based on corporate greed but figure I'm missing something in what you've written.
Regardless, how has the political system failed? Because government spending is set to rise by less than it otherwise might have done?
Actually, what I find really depressing (call me cynical) is that probably the woman Chief Inspector may well have been acting in good faith, and may well have been sent in to be the acceptable face of the police in F&M, but that someone higher up the tree was probably using her in the same way that they were using the protestors to try to engineer the story. Bet she's not pleased with the way she looks on the video either.
It's the same cynicism that the police displayed when they left that empty van in the middle of the street just asking for it to be smashed up at the tuition fees demo.
OTOH the cop who gets filmed just after the protestors ask why they are being held looks unfortunately like the steriotypical [url=
Savage[/url]
the woman Chief Inspector may well have been acting in good faith
Yes that's quite possible. And I don't blame the officers carrying out the arrests. But someone in authority clearly decided to deliberately lie, misinform, mislead, and abuse trust.
And if this from the link is true it really doesn't sound good :
[i]People in the crowd told a second female officer: 'You've lied to us. You said we could leave and now you're arresting everyone.' She replied: 'Yes, you're free to leave – to the police station. You're going to be arrested.'"[/i]
I can handle a copper losing it and beating the crap out of an innocent protester - some coppers are arseholes and that won't affect my overall opinion of the police. But for a senior officer(s) to be deliberately and calculatingly dishonest, is seriously sinister imo.
You only have to consider who the people that end up getting kettled are to realise that the police deserve our full support over kettling
"First they came for the Communists, and I offered my fullest support..."
konabunny - Member
"First they came for the Communists, and I offered my fullest support..."
It's taken an astonishing 5 pages before the invoking of Godwin's Law, I'm truly impressed!
The unreasonable and disproportionate force in that video makes me physically sick. Maybe they would have gone easier on them if the beardy type who cleaned up F+M told a few more coppers of his good act.
Half a story - some shitty edited vid with a poncey commentary - "oooh, we were tricked by the police - my oxbridge education didnt prepare me for such trickery, how could I let it happen.
Anyway, any vids of Jody McIntyre from the weekend, he must have been about somewhere with his brakes on.
I'm truly impressed!
I was just impressed that anyone could be bothered to react to your cretinous comment BH.
But then perhaps I'm just easily impressed.
Or there's the Sun's version of events:
A 1,000-strong mob stormed the Queen's favourite food store Fortnum & Mason, where tourists cowered in terror as yobs threatened to smash up the shop.
Are newspapers allowed to print blatant lies? I thought there were laws against that sort of thing, no? Or don't they apply to Murdoch?
MarginWalker; so much anger within you.
Why?
Are newspapers allowed to print blatant lies ? I thought there were laws against that sort of thing, no?
😕 Yes of course they can print blatant lies........why wouldn't they be ?
Of course publishing libellous stuff about individuals is altogether different.........specially if the individual is in a position to sue. Although they sometimes still take a chance on that - they have pretty large sums available themselves.
Needless to say there are some individuals they don't have to worry about at all.......senior politicians such as party leaders and royalty for example will rarely consider suing the press - it looks bad in terms of stifling "free press" etc. And then others such as Col Gaddafi and other foreign leaders stand no chance of suing the British press so the only thing which limits what they publish is their imagination.
Interesting thread this, I'll have to read it...
I wasn't surprised by the different presentations of the protest in different papers. Love how The Mirror presented as Their Protest and published pictures of people carrying Mirror endorsed banners. Millions of people buy that paper, and will have a certain opinion because of it. From what I can tell, which is very little I suppose, it was a good protest, got their/our voices across. small bunch of idiots . Just got to do it again, again, again, and again.
Cameron hasn't come out with a boisterous know-it-all statement yet though.
Truth is, the Sun woon't have had any journalists actually at the scene, they'll just have a couple of bods sitting watching TV coverage, then type up some deliberately inflammatory crap they know will get their boneheaded right-wing readers frothing at the mouth. The Sun's about selling newspapers (and making it's proprietor lots and lots of money), not about disseminating actual factual information. But it's readers don't really want the Truth; what they want is titillation and sensationalism, to stir their dull unexercised brains. The Times is the same, just with bigger words and less bare breasts.
Funny that yer Flashy and them bang on about the Guardian, yet it's that 'left-wing rag' that actually publishes some proper news.
what interests me is you never get the truth. just opinions or versions of the truth, or manipulations. but that's what is presented in the mass media as The Truth. for 20p. This is why the internet is good! or more interesting!
The sun's lack of objectivity is shared by many on this thread
why cos you can get your opinions or versions of the truth for less than 20p?
Kevevs - Memberwhat interests me is you never get the truth. just opinions or versions of the truth, or manipulations.
Yeah you did that with this comment :
[i]"Love how The Mirror presented as Their Protest and published pictures of people carrying Mirror endorsed banners."[/i]
That's your opinion and yet you presented it as the truth. Now I don't read the Mirror but I doubt very much whether they 'presented it as Their Protest'.
(Actually one of the many things which struck me on Saturday was the quantity of proper high quality Daily Mirror banners supporting the march everywhere. I remember thinking "I wonder if the Daily Mirror actually has permission to fix their banners in so many places")
Love how The Mirror presented as Their Protest and published pictures of people carrying Mirror endorsed banners.
Well, if it works for the [i]Socialist Worker[/i]...
My best mate is of the same rank,he thinks the female Inspector wants the protesters out the shop asap,without any damage,therefore took the decision to say "Whatever she had to" to get them out of the shop.At the end of the day,and this is his point,she got them out of the shop without any injuries or damage,she will be backed to the hilt.He also said they were lifted to stop them just going to the next bastion of capitalism and doing the same thing.Another point of his and one I would imagine shared by a lot of the police."I have never seen many working class people with such nice sports jackets."
BH8; Thats not Goodwins KB is involking,it is a play on Pastor Martin Niemoller
duckman
So the charge is "possession of a nice sports jacket"?
Even if all was as your mate says then I think he has the wrong approach. Even if there was a short term gain in getting the protestors out of F&M (and I don't think there was because it seems obvious from the video that they had asked to leave but were actually being asked to stay in (spode teapotting) whilst things were being organised outside) then there will still be a massive long term loss of trust (if possible) in the police who will now be seen by even more (fairly mild) people as totally untrustworthy. What happens at the next demo, when they might be having to deal with some properly difficult people, rather than a bunch of upper-class students? I'm afraid that I don't think that the ends justify the means. And I also think the police chose a pretty bloody soft target.
OTOH loads of photographers managed to take loads of pictures of actual hooligans doing real damage with very few police in sight.
It was a pretty awful idea (from the perspective of the black bloc) to head towards Trafalgar Sq in the first place. Most of it is stone-built impregnable buildings with tons of high-quality CCTV cameras and it's a wide open space with good sightlines for "troop" co-ordination and use of cameras to collect evidence/identify people down the road. I suspect there may have been an attempt to recreate the Poll Tax Riot, but that was then, and this is now.
It would appear the first rule is to get the demonstrators out of the shop without causing any damage,in that case a pretty successful police action.Allow me to pose a couple of questions here; It seems there have been a couple of posts on here about how the "Rioters" out-smarted the police and kettled them etc, should there be one set of rules for one group and one for another? Also,what if the manager of F&M had suggested they wanted to press charges? And that is why the arrests took place.I don't condone either the occupation and impact on minimum wage shop workers,and certainly not the blatant lying to the protestors.However;do the crime,do the time. Saw the true colours of the demonstrators when they realised they were going to be arrested,a mass charge of urinating in a public place could have been pinned on top of the trespass charges.As for your last point,trusting the police is an affection of the middle classes.
What happens at the next demo, when they might be having to deal with some properly difficult people, rather than a bunch of upper-class students?
They will knock seven bells of poo out of them as they always do. Brixton/Toxtieth/Miners strike/Poll tax riots.
duckman - MemberBH8; Thats not Goodwins KB is involking,it is a play on Pastor Martin Niemoller
I know exactly what it is, it was a statement made in response to the failure of the German populace as a whole and the intelligentsia in particular to speak out before the Nazi movement reached critical mass.
Godwin's Law has most certainly been invoked!
