[Closed] Is it racist...

I detest the Americanisation of our language. It's programme not program. Program is IT

It's a computer "program" when referring to software precisely because it was originally coined in the US (see also floppy disk and hard disk versus compact disc; the first two are American inventions, the second a joint venture between the non-American companies Philips and Sony).

There was a big debate on facebook about people from Bollington being referred to (and referring to themselves) as Bollywogs.
Fun to watch.

I definitely wouldn't be the person to stand in a Chinese takeaway on the phone saying "Do you want anything from the Chinky?".

I do find it interesting how it is often the same people on each side of these arguments. Makes me wonder what the main differences in our experiences are that lead us to our positions.

CharlieMungus - Member
As i say it has potential to cause offensive, even if not intended.
Even if it is used without racist intent, it's not a very nice word and carries a legacy of racist intent.

Until the word is rehabilitated, then best not to use it in such contexts.

Racism for me requires intent.

I disagree. That implies there's no such thing as casual racism.

Hence my post on the first page of this thread. In my twenties I used to think along similar lines but have come to realise it will still cause offence regardless of my intent. It takes very little effort to adjust or understand why you're doing so and sometimes it takes someone to inform you of your error. I was lucky enough not to have some preachy, condescending type help me understand where I was going wrong.

I do enjoy threads where a bunch of middle-aged white guys (yeah, I'm making that assumption) decide what is and isn't racist.

Fair enough, but as the op I can confirm that the person in the pub who actually brought the subject up was chinese. And he had no issues with it at all. Appears to me that those who take issue with it aren't from the areas that grew up with the term.

as pointed out by others, i think the word used to describe an individual is not appropriate in the least...

Makes me wonder what the main differences in our experiences are that lead us to our positions.

Having an Indian best mate since the age of 11 and a Chinese ex girlfriend who've both been negatively affected by racism means that you can probably guess my position on the subject.

Sorry if Teasel finds that condescending or preachy.

Brown - Member
Racism for me requires intent.

I disagree. That implies there's no such thing as casual racism.
If something's said 'without intent' but still upsets people of a particular race based on their race, that's racist, regardless of intent.

I can see there being a need to differentiate between overt racism and societal racism that goes back generations, as lets face it does exist(i'm guilty of it myself, born late 70s, growing up in the 80s, hard to avoid it, society moves on though and we learn).

I don't think it's really helpful to call the later racists though, rather than just say, come on, do you realise you sound like a fossil or some such, and just make it known, it's really socially unacceptable to refer to such and such as such and such... (in saying that, I think we're well down that path these days, so anyone that religiously sticks to stereotypical terms can probably be called a racist.)

Appears to me that those who take issue with it aren't from the areas that grew up with the term.

Appears to me that those who take issue with it aren't from the areas that grew up with the term.

,

I think for the 40somethings in here, we all grew up with the term, just some stopped using it

Sorry if Teasel finds that condescending or preachy.

Heh

I didn't have this thread in mind when I wrote that. But if the cap fits...

🙂

I don't think it's really helpful to call the later racists though, rather than just say, come on, do you realise you sound like a fossil or some such, and just make it known, it's really socially unacceptable to refer to such and such as such and such...

Fair point.

I didn't have this thread in mind when I wrote that. But if the cap fits...

I'd a wee edit at the end aswell.

The Southern Yeti - Member
Don't post a picture of your Chinese meal with the chopsticks sticking up from the middle of it, whatever you do.

Linky

Doesn't matter to be honest so just post whatever you like and be yourself good or bad.

I certainly don't care ...

The reason not to have chopsticks sticking up is simple.

1. It symbolises dedicating the meal to the death.

2. Traditionally, we use even number incense to stick on the food to dedicate to the death.

3. Sometimes we just stick two chopsticks on the food ...

4. This applies to all countries that use chopsticks.

Therefore, if you stick two chopsticks on your food you are either the death (dedicating to yourself) or dedicating the food to your own ancestors/love ones.

That is the reason why we don't do that in our house nor others house and it is very rude to others if you do that in their house because you are dedicating to their death.

😆

Check the number of incense ...

[img] [/img]

Agreed, in such cases in here, i don't brand the individual as racist or homophobic (usually), only what they say

Ozzies, Yanks, Bubbles, whens a your Dolmio day. It's all getting a bit out of hand. Lots of innocuous statements can be offensive if you want them to be.

Chinky does cross a line same as **** does and that's pretty clear I'd say. Some of the comments here have a real whiff of the thought police about them. It's certainly someones right to be offended but equally its my right to be offensive if I so choose. My kids often ask me where the offense line is, I always say that something someone "is" is totally off limits but an idea someone "believes" feel free to fill your boots.
Modern political correctness is eroding that right and its a worry.

....to refer to a chinese takeaway as a 'chinky'?

How is this even a question? Of course it's racist.

A definitive list of racist terms and contexts would be very useful.

Modern political correctness is eroding that right and its a worry.

agreed.
too many folk go out of their way to be offended, and also want to be offended on other people's behalf.

Too many folk are also conciously racist and proud of it.

I know which group is worse...

Anti-political correctness has become so politically correct.

A definitive list of racist terms and contexts would be very useful

Not to me, I feel no need for one. Anyone struggling to work out if something is racist probably needs more than a list of terms...

Some of the comments here have a real whiff of the thought police about them. It's certainly someones right to be offended but equally its my right to be offensive if I so choose ... Modern political correctness is eroding that right and its a worry.

I was wondering when this would come up. It's completely true and at the same time, [I]in the context of this thread[/I], it's utter bollocks. Using the phrase 'chinky' has nothing to do with free speech. If you could avoid using a term that can and does affect people, why would you not do so? It doesn't matter if it's PC-gone-mad or not, it's just being nice.

too many folk go out of their way to be offended, and also want to be offended on other people's behalf.

Had the same thing, originally in Barnsley going for a chinky was a normal phrase. I suggested this at one of the SV650 rideouts (northwind will know) and got a right old bollocking. I honestly never ever considered it as racist and didnt even think it would offend. But it did so i stopped using it.

I was called all sorts under the sun, racist being one of them. I personally dont think its racist as that means that there is intent imo and not ignorance. Still if someone doesn't like something why keep using it?

I dont use the phrase now.

"Not to me, I feel no need for one."

So how do *you* find out which terms are racist and which aren't? You just go on gut feel?

I was called all sorts under the sun, racist being one of them. I personally dont think its racist as that means that there is intent imo and not ignorance.

So how do *you* find out which terms are racist and which aren't?

Why would I need to find anything out ?

It really isn't a grey area to me, but if it is to you then you need to think about why.

So how do *you* find out which terms are racist and which aren't?

wikipedia?

So how do *you* find out which terms are racist and which aren't?

"Why would I need to find anything out ?"

Are you some kind of expert on racism?

Seriously, Chinky isnt a term in use where I live, I was aware of it as a term for food but I only recall hearing it once on a visit up North.

How the hell am I supposed to know that some people think it's racist? According to this thread even people who live in areas where it is used, don't know.

So yeah, a definitive list of terms that various cultures nationalities find offensive would prevent these 'guess if a word is racist' issues.

I know someone who didn't know what dogging meant for years - not everyone is linguistically up to date.

"If you find yourself asking the question, normally a decent indicator it's probably time to move on from the term."

I just asked myself that question about Up North... Is that racist?

Are you some kind of expert on racism?

Nope, just not racist so comes easy I suppose.

I just asked myself that question about Up North... Is that racist?

no, but maybe offensive, in Nicaragua

"Nope, just not racist so comes easy I suppose."

You know every racist slang word in use in the uk?

I bet you don't.

IMO the phrase is racist but you aren't, as evidenced by the fact you stopped using it as soon as you realise it could upset people. Nice one.

But thats just the point, i've never ever met anyone who was offended by calling a chinese takeaway a 'chinky', never in 40 years. And that includes amongst several chinese mates, one who owns a takeout. If anything its a term of endearment towards their great food.

Lots of folks on here say its offensive and upsetting, but I've never met anyone outside of the intraweb who is actually slighlty offended by the term when used in that context.

Who decides if something is offensive?

Hence the post...

does anyone actually have the etymology of 'Chinky' ? where does the word actually come from?

"no"

So that test doesn't work then.

Are you some kind of expert on racism?

Nope, just not racist so comes easy I suppose.

[quote=seosamh77 ]

So how do *you* find out which terms are racist and which aren't?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinky

But thats just the point, i've never ever met anyone who was offended by calling a chinese takeaway a 'chinky', never in 40 years. And that includes amongst several chinese mates, one who owns a takeout. If anything its a term of endearment towards their great food.

"But thats just the point, i've never ever met anyone who was offended by calling a chinese takeaway a 'chinky', never in 40 years. And that includes amongst several chinese mates, one who owns a takeout. If anything its a term of endearment towards their great food.
Lots of folks on here say its offensive and upsetting, but I've never met anyone outside of the intraweb who is actually slighlty offended by the term when used in that context"

Chinky isn't even in dictionary.com as a term for food at all - but it does list it as a derogatory term for people. Maybe someone can check the OED to see what that says about the food use?

I personally dont think its racist as that means that there is intent imo and not ignorance. Still if someone doesn't like something why keep using it?

I dont use the phrase now.

That's a pretty nice somethingion of how I feel, I think.

"Offence" is an odd concept. I've said before but context / intent is king. Going for a "chinky" could be said perfectly innocently / naively, and is a world apart from calling someone an effing chink. To label someone as racist for the former is, well, I'd hazard that would be someone actively looking to be offended so they can make a song and dance about it.

Of course, once you discover that some people might find a term offensive, you've got two choices as to whether you carry on using it or not. I'm not convinced that carrying on using it would make you "racist" per se, rather that you're a bit of a plum who simply doesn't care about offending people. Throwing "racist" around dilutes the meaning and trivialises people who are actually racist. You've used an offensive word, not burned down a mosque.

It can go too far the other way, of course. I got chastised last year for referring to what I thought was the politically-correctism du jour, "coloured people." After being told I can't say that and asking what I should say instead, I was told, "people of colour." FFS, that's the same words in a different order!

I personally think that being offended by words in isolation is a bit weird. They're just a bundle of letters, the crux isn't "what did they say" but rather "what did they mean?" "****" is just a contraction of "****stani," the fact that it's an insult is insane. When I was young it was a general description in the same way that someone might be a Scot, it only really became an insult because it was so often preceded by "effing" by the actual racists. IME anyway.

Conversely, "****" has been reappropriated by black people as a term of endearment, does that make it ok for me to use it to refer to someone? It's the same word, what's the difference? Oh yes - context.

I appreciate that I'm in a minority and that people generally will infer what they like from words regardless of actual intent. So I suppose, if people took a little time to at least try and avoid words that are potentially offensive, and those who tend to spend half their lives trying to be offended chilled the **** out a bit, we'd all get on a lot better all round.

Racism for me requires intent.

I disagree. That implies there's no such thing as casual racism.
If something's said 'without intent' but still upsets people of a particular race based on their race, that's racist, regardless of intent.

You really put a chink in his armour there.

Hope he wasn't stood on a slope at the time.

does anyone actually have the etymology of 'Chinky' ? where does the word actually come from?

I know it's not what you're asking whatsoever but when I was a kid in the 70s and my dad asked if we wanted a chinky the images of prawn balls would fill my head. Still does to a degree so this thread is making me quite peckish.

So, chinky = prawn balls. In my distorted little mind.

EDIT : And noodles...!

EDIT 2 : A quick Google and the font of all truth claims:

A number of dictionaries have provided different suggestions as to the origin of chink. Some of these suggestions are that it originated from the Chinese courtesy ching-ching, or that it evolved from the word China, or that it was an alteration of Qing (Ch'ing), as in the Qing Dynasty.

Another possible etymology is that chink evolved from the Indo-Iranian word for China, that word now having similar pronunciations in various Indo-European languages, such as Persian.

"****" is just a contraction of "****stani," the fact that it's an insult is insane.

Apropos of nothing, a ****stani friend of mine lived in Texas around the time of the 9/11 attacks. He said he decided the only way to deal with someone yelling "****" at him in the street was to wave cheerily and say "Yes, how clever of you to know that I'm not Indian" and then move quickly on before they worked out he was taking the piss. Whilst he wasn't upset to be called a **** by a friend he said the easiest thing was to avoid the term entirely as idiots need a rule book to know when it is and isn't okay to use a potentially derogatory term as a term of endearment.

You know every racist slang word in use in the uk?

I bet you don't.

I don't need to know them. I wouldn't use a word if I didn't know what it meant.

English beef and mushrooms, with beansprouts. number 13 at our local east Asian takeaway in the 70's.

I think a lot of the problem here is that we're confusing racist terms and racist people. They aren't the same.

When I say that I consider 'chinky' a racist term I don't mean to imply that someone who uses it is racist. Intent is a consideration, how it's received is too. It's all about context.

And now, as a middle-aged, middle-class white man, I think I've said enough.

Program is IT or information technology to you as I'm guessing you also don't like acronyms?

Not sure why you'd guess that, but you're wrong.

It can go too far the other way, of course. I got chastised last year for referring to what I thought was the politically-correctism du jour, "coloured people." After being told I can't say that and asking what I should say instead, I was told, "people of colour." FFS, that's the same words in a different order!

yes, same words, but it changes the emphasis and has different heritage. 'Coloured' was a term used by white people to designate 'others'. People of colour is a term created by people of colour to define themselves. Hegemony and power relations and all that. Others also say that Coloured people defines people by their colour first, whereas People of colour gives people their humanity first.

[img] [/img]

I personally think that being offended by words in isolation is a bit weird. They're just a bundle of letters, the crux isn't "what did they say" but rather "what did they mean?"

why then was my post removed?

See how easy this is?

Is that really necessary...?

I personally think that being offended by words in isolation is a bit weird. They're just a bundle of letters, the crux isn't "what did they say" but rather "what did they mean"

This x(sideways 8 )

English beef and mushrooms, with beansprouts. number 13 at our local east Asian takeaway in the 70's.

🙂

I bet you're hungry now, aintcha...?

Is that really necessary...?

No, apologies to outofbreath - have removed.

Good show!

🙂

I personally think that being offended by words in isolation is a bit weird. They're just a bundle of letters, the crux isn't "what did they say" but rather "what did they mean"

Life is just... like... SOOOOOOOOO complicated nowadays!

"I don't need to know them. I wouldn't use a word if I didn't know what it meant. See how easy this is?"

No you claim you knew all racist words, you didn't claim you never used a racist word.

I've never said Chinky in my life (I've written it a few times today) but I still didn't know it was racist when applied to food, and I'm seriously doubting if it is. I'm waiting to hear what the OED says on the subject.

[I]Cougar - Moderator

It's a computer "program" when referring to software precisely because it was originally coined in the US (see also floppy disk and hard disk versus compact disc; the first two are American inventions, the second a joint venture between the non-American companies Philips and Sony). [/I]

I'd casually, politely, disagree with that, if I may.
Being the first to invent something, as great as that may be, doesn't bestow upon the inventor, the right to incorrectly spell disc.
Just my view.
🙂

Edit:
14 pages.

Has anyone started a gofundme page for the local stables? I suspect they'll be needing a new roof soon.

No you claim you knew all racist words, you didn't claim you never used a racist word.

Where did I say I knew all racist words?

So what aboot calling someone a Jock, or dare I say it a Sassenach?

Sassenach is from Scottish Gaelic Sasunnoch, Irish Sasanach, from Latin Saxones ‘Saxons’.
It just means 'Saxons'. There's nothing derogatory about it at all. Personally I find it something of a compliment. 🙂

Where did I say I knew all racist words?

Wow! You must be super racist to take the time go and learn them all!!

Has anyone asked Prince Phillip where he stands on this? Its not racist unless he says it is

[img] [/img]

how is this for a racist word. nitty gritty.

my wife works for leeds council. a work mate was pulled in by HR for using nitty gritty in a housing department meeting.

http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/nitty-gritty.html

Huh. Every day is a school day.

"Where did I say I knew all racist words?"

You said this:

"Why would I need to find anything out ?
It really isn't a grey area to me, but if it is to you then you need to think about why."

I thought you were saying that you knew every racist term and therefore had no need to ever check.

If you're just saying you have no idea either, then I can't see how you can possibly dispute my original point.

"Wow! You must be super racist to take the time go and learn them all!!"

That was going to be my next point!

re nitty gritty, from the same article above

There is no evidence to support the suggestion that 'nitty-gritty' has any connection with slave ships. It may have originated in the USA as an African-American expression, but that's as near as it gets to slavery. It isn't even recorded in print until the 1930s, long after slave ships had disappeared, and none of the early references make any link to slavery.

so... not racist then?

I'm with Ton on this though really. As a Midlander living darn Sarf, chinky refers to the food or the place to me. I've never heard it used insultingly and I think you'd have a hard job making it an insult TBH. That said I don't use the term any more because I don't eat Chinese food, and it's not used round here so it's a word that's out of use in my vocabulary. One for the professionally offended though? Certainly.

True story, from my dad.
My dad worked in a factory in our home town of Sutton in Ashfield for many years. Mid 1970s until he retired, 30+ years. There were quite a few blokes there and more than one was called Stan or Stanley. One of these blokes was an Asian chap. Wether he was actually called Stan or it was a name he went by or a nickname I don't know and nor does it matter. But, to his face, in a decent manner, he was refered to as ****Stan. This was no problem. Nobody was being a dick and he didn't mind. That was his home country. No issue for many years......
Until the firm was bought out then when the new management heard they went apeshit. I think the blokes just ignored them and carried on.
It's all about the context words are used in. I'm sure any one of us could be incredibly insulting about anyone without swearing or using any racist terms at all.

I thought you were saying that you knew every racist term and therefore had no need to ever check

Nope, never said anything like that.

Sassenach is from Scottish Gaelic Sasunnoch, Irish Sasanach, from Latin Saxones ‘Saxons’.
It just means 'Saxons'. There's nothing derogatory about it at all. Personally I find it something of a compliment.

But etymology is irrelevant, otherwise "****" would be fine. Is "Sassenach" usually intended to be derogatory? Just checking as I've no idea whether I should be offended by it or not, unable as I am to interpret nuance from language.

"Wow! You must be super racist to take the time go and learn them all!!"

That was going to be my next point!

perhaps so, but i wasn't being serious

[quote=Cougar ]

Sassenach is from Scottish Gaelic Sasunnoch, Irish Sasanach, from Latin Saxones ‘Saxons’.
It just means 'Saxons'. There's nothing derogatory about it at all. Personally I find it something of a compliment.

I like being referred to as Sassenach and 'Roast Beef', but that's because I assume it's a good natured jibe, not intended to be truly insulting.

All the more reason for a definitive list!

Sassenach isn't derogatory. I'm not sure of it's etymology but here it refers to people from south of the Wall, and in the highlands it refers to people south of the highland line (Lowlanders). I think the highland term is the original one and is used by lowland Scots because we all like to think of ourselves as kilt-wearing, claymore-wielding, heather-striding, sassenach-slaying Bravehearts.
OMFG, I'm turning into an anti-me racist.

I've no idea whether I should be offended by it or not, unable as I am to interpret nuance from language.