Oh, you are one of ‘those’ people.
Seems so. Funnily enough it never takes that long....
Got it.
That's unlucky. Might have been a 'special' and 'against the tide*' thinker that gave it you.
*Only when tide is going in a direction that is mildly inconvenient on a personal level, obviously.
You’ll be 100% confident that you think for yourself as well.
They always are.
🙄
Going the other way absolutely MIGHT do harm.
Fixed it for you
Fixed it for you
I'm a pretty experienced driver and cautious driver. I reckon I could get home safely with no injury to myself or others 19 times out 20 if I was over the drink-drive limit by 50%.
Should I give it a try?
paranoid furloughed masses
I was not furloughed at any point. I took a pay cut and ended up working longer hours. I am still working those longer hours.
But I was (and am) able to work from home.
Should I feel privileged or exploited?
Here was little old me thinking I only had a pandemic to worry about. Now I am so confused about whether I have been taking the piss or whether I have been exploited.
I might go shopping without a mask right now, just to stick it to the man.
as someone who voted for Brexit for which I inevitably received flack, I’m not prepared to waste my precious little energy on defending my considered decisions.
There’s far too much intolerance on here, the worst it’s ever been in my dozen years or so as a Forum user. Will leave it there
Cinnamon Girl, you continually waste energy on here recommending Dr Myhill and linking to caldwell lyme sites, both of which are less than scientific in their approach. There is a difference between intolerance and not tolerating utter rubbish.
Ahem...
'Flak'.
No 'c'.
Unless this makes me a pedantic 'c', of course.
sorry Cougar, i disagree.
And as I said, that's irrelevant. Disagree all you like, it changes nothing.
fact is, the science has been playing catch up since January and continues to do so
government guidelines are fast changing and sometimes immediately contradictory, which then means that all we are dealing with here are opinions and beliefs.
Of course. The government has been a shambles, what else is new. But the "science" is broadly in agreement globally as time goes on. It's a process of constant revision, that's how science works. They're not just making things up for the lols.
I have yet to see any "science" which suggests that a great way to prevent the spread of the disease is to steadfastly refuse to wear a mask and organise large social gatherings just to be contrary.
At worst wearing a mask in public is a minor inconvenience and might not make any difference at all; yet at best you wearing one could save hundreds of lives.
the points made on the last page, that you shouldnt result to insults to try to ‘win’ the argument still stand.
No arguments here, though it's difficult sometimes.
I have yet to see any “science” which suggests that a great way to prevent the spread of the disease is to steadfastly refuse to wear a mask and organise large social gatherings just to be contrary.
There will be some somewhere, no doubt.
But there is probably some 'science' out there that says President Kennedy was not shot at all, just stung by several very aggressive bees.
If people are determined to be contrary just for the hell if it, or to 'prove' something to themselves or others, then they will.
Deliberately swimming against the tide for no good reason gets you noticed, after all.
It doesn't take a genius to work out that while the immediate risk on a personal level is very low, expand that out to 70 million people on a densely populated island and if everyone doesn't bother then the virus could spread exponentially.
It's also a very low risk of something that could potentially ruin your life or kill you, or both. And all you are being asked to do is wear a mask occasionally and spend more time with your family to mitigate this, but this is apparently too much for some people to bear.
It's especially weird on a forum where presumably people enjoy the great outdoors, which you can still do pretty much without any restrictions.
and sorry dannyh, i have little intention of blindly following the CV19 rules particularly where they appear dreamt up by the paranoid furloughed masses.
So how many extra deaths are you prepared to have for your willingness to ignore guidelines, rules and laws?
C_G if you still think voting for brexit because you wanted to give cameron a bloody nose was a valid choice i'm afraid you're always going to cop some flak for that and TBH given the vast impending fallout of that vote you've got it coming. play the victim all you want.
So how many extra deaths are you prepared to have for your willingness to ignore guidelines, rules and laws?
I guess that would depend on how 'close to home' those deaths are.
Too close and it will probably be someone else's fault and he/she will 'demand answers'.
So how many extra deaths are you prepared to have for your willingness to ignore guidelines, rules and laws?
I will point out that many of you drive at 80mph on the motorway ...just saying
C_G if you still think voting for brexit because you wanted to give cameron a bloody nose
Cameron is set for life. Always was, always will be. I think he's probably over it now.
Every ****er else.... not so much.
Even by Stormin Norman Schwarzkopf's standards that is a heck of a lot of collateral damage.
But this isn't a Brexit thread...
(Yes, that is intentional irony).
I will point out that many of you drive at 80mph on the motorway …just saying
How do you know?
wow, you guys really like to echo
tj - im not going to follow any virus related rule that you make up, on principle, as the likelihood of a 180 reversal is just too high (joking tj, chill) - in all honesty i have not considered the level of genuine extra deaths per year that i tolerate, but i dont have a flu jab each year so probably similar figures wouldnt alarm me
grum - for an mtb forum i find it amazing so many are so risk averse
cougar - trying to say that i either refuse to wear a mask, or that i organise large illegal gatherings is really stretching it.
dannyh - genuinely sorry to hear your work has taken a turn for the worse this year, when i flippantly referenced the furloughed masses, i was trying to reference those who have nothing better to do than stare at their navals and come up with their own interpretation of the ever evolving scienctific advice (it wasnt aimed at you either kelvin)
grum – for an mtb forum i find it amazing so many are so risk averse
I doubt any of us are particularly worried about catching the coronavirus ourselves, I know I'm not. I am concerned about catching it mainly because I might well pass it on to my partner who has a transplanted kidney and takes a barrage of immune system-ruining medication every day in order to stay alive. Amazingly enough some of us care about wider society too.
thats fair - i'd be concerned about passing it to my mum or to my FiL. incidence round here generally very low ,low enough i dont worry about the deilvery driver, and my interactions with the world at large currently mean im very very unlikely to get it.
i effectively quarantined for a week before going to visit the FiL the other week
i know you think i should have quarantined for 14days, but ive not had contact with anyone with symptoms, ever, and no contact with anyone other than my wife for that week.... we didnt develop symptoms and following our visit, neither has he
I have been exposed as mrs TJ has had it ( not tested)
However I know people who have died from Covid and I know people who will die if they get it including my father and I think those of you who will not follow guidance to protect the vulnerable are utterly disgraceful in your selfish attitudes. some folk on here are now on my "beneath contempt" list.
Why be so selfish to increase risks to others when simple measures reduce risk substantially?
Some of you need to see some dead people!
but ive not had contact with anyone with symptoms, ever,
Asymptomatic transmission is common and a huge driver of the pandemic and you have no idea if that statement is true at all.
Some of you need to see some dead people!
I see dead people.
Some might say I have a sixth sense for this sort of thing.
Couldn't resist. Sorry.
dannyh – genuinely sorry to hear your work has taken a turn for the worse this year
Ta.
It has been swings and roundabouts, to be honest. If it gets too bad I'll have a word with the powers that be. Or look for a new job. But it would have to be pretty bad for that, especially given what is around the corner economically.
But ultimately it is something I can control, so long as I take a breath before making any decisions.
And I am in a much better situation than many people I know. They are looking at redundo, forced cuts in hours or worse (some are self employed).
Controlling the controllables. Which brings us neatly back on topic and me 'out' for the evening...
And all you are being asked to do is wear a mask occasionally and spend more time with your family to mitigate this, but this is apparently too much for some people to bear.
I'm old enough to have seen this "infringing on my human rights / being told what to do / I'll make my own choices" argument before. It was when seatbelts became mandatory. How many people complain about that now? Change is bad we fear change the sky is falling.
And of course, seatbelts mostly only affect the wearer's safety (unless you're unfortunate enough to be turned into a ballistic missile), this has far wider-reaching connotations.
cougar – trying to say that i either refuse to wear a mask, or that i organise large illegal gatherings is really stretching it.
I didn't say (or at least, mean) that you, personally, did any of those things. I've no idea what you are or aren't doing, I'm commenting on what I'm seeing in person and on the news day to day.
This is not an “opinions” or “beliefs” argument. It’s taking small and sensible safety precautions even if you think that the entire thing is fictional, because if you’re right then big whoop you’ve had to wash your hands a bit more, if you’re wrong then many more people will get very sick and maybe even die.
I agree. But the argument needs to be made in a reasoned way, even if (no - especially if) the counter is ignorant, stupid, misinformed, couldn't care less...... because you certainly won't convince them to behave differently by simply yelling at them.
for an mtb forum i find it amazing so many are so risk averse
For at least the third time, people posting here are in the main seeking to reduce transmission to reduce the risk for other people, not themselves. Personal risks taken while mountain biking aren’t the same thing at all. If I take a (yet another) spill, I’ll be the one hurt, not the old couple who live next door, or any one of hundreds of thousands of at risk people that I share this island with. Some of which I’m related to, or are friends with. Some of which you are related to, or are friends with.
you certainly won’t convince them to behave differently by simply yelling at them.
Who's yelling?
yelling, insults..... a few quotes from preceding pages:
Because they are special and everything that goes wrong is someone else’s fault.
and
Tell you what. If you feel so special and feel the need to let everyone know your opinions and the sacrifice that you personally are making, then get a t-shirt printed up saying:
“I am only wearing this mask because I have to. Please thank me”.
and
its the risk of you spreading it to vulnerable people you selfish arse.
and
Or you could whine because McDonald’s is shut.
and
Yes. If you don’t you’re a dick.
I probably agree actually with all the above......but presenting it to those with a different opinion in that way entrenches opinions, not changes them.
[edit] if I stick - 'and if you disagree with me then you're a nobhead' does that bolster my opinion and make it more acceptable to you? Because it's becoming the standard method for a proportion of posters on here. Again...having learned nothing from Brexit / Bojo / Trump.....
Yes. If you don’t you’re a dick.
That last one sums up all the others perfectly. Anyone can understand what that means, yes? They’re all making the same point though… don’t be selfish… the measures being taken are not to protect you, they are to protect others, they rely on people not at risk acting to help to protect those who are. If you don’t take the precautions because you personally are at very little risk… you are being a dick.
if I stick – ‘and if you disagree with me then you’re a nobhead’ does that bolster my opinion and make it more acceptable to you?
No, but that’s just a pointless insult, it‘s not making or backing up a point in a way which happens to be a jokey insult.
I probably agree actually with all the above……but presenting it to those with a different opinion in that way entrenches opinions, not changes them.
How would you constructively express the fact that you find some people's behaviour and attitudes to be extremely anti-social and irresponsible though? It's like this idea that you can't call people racist because it's 'shutting down debate', even if they display openly racist attitudes.
I get what you're saying and I don't disagree but how to be diplomatic when someone shits on your lawn?
The gov have been incompetent in their management of the CV19 response; their comms have been unclear, contradictory, late.
This means the population have had no choice other than to apply a personal interpretation.
That, therefore, means that we have a wide range of possible responses.
Let's by-pass the crass stupidity of piers corbyn and david icke; ask the basic question, what is your problem with the core principles of sensible behaviour in a pandemic - that is, wash hands at every possible opportunity, wear a mask covering both mouth and nose in any social setting, maintain social distancing, sanitise hands regularly and often?
None of those - either in isolation or in combination - are onerous.
Compliance should be a given; evidence of non-compliance encourages others to behave in the same way.
If you think this is all a fantasy or an exaggeration, think about what the majority see as the greater good; just make a small effort - which could help you and/or others.
It's not difficult, will cost you nothing and might - possibly - do some good.
@kelvin, not sure if you are stupid or deliberately missing the point. To win people over it's not just the message but how it's delivered and calling someone stupid because they disagree with you (like what I deliberately just did) doesn't win over. What was your immediate response to me calling you stupid? More or less likely to agree with the rest of my statement?
@grum it is difficult, but I think the evidence is that if someone thinks they have a legitimate reason to shit on your lawn engaging and convincing them they don't is more likely to be effective than just yelling. Where the response as seen before then becomes "oh really? Well just watch what else I can do"
So stupidity should be indulged?
Is that what we are saying here?
No, you just need to know how to talk to stupid people to get them to see things rather than just shout "you are stupid" at them. I am not the person for that job as I have not got the patience...
Where did i suggest that?
I have several times now said I actually agree with the opinions, yours included, that someone failing to observe what is a fairly minimal inconvenience like wearing a face covering in a shop or staying 2m apart is unacceptable.
HOW we engage to change behaviours is the question, not whether we need to.
Jeez, some people on here are so thick.
Hehe was calling people thick there deliberately ironic or just amusingly hypocritical? 🙂
I doubt any of us are particularly worried about catching the coronavirus ourselves, I know I’m not.
Well, given that I've spent pretty much the last six months incapacitated with long haul covid-19, have nerve damage - hopefully temporary - to my hands, crushing fatigue, possible heart issues going forward, which it turns out is common even with mild to moderate cases, ended up in A&E with stroke-type symptoms, can't work, have brain fog, appalling insomnia, had seriously elevated HR for months and that's just scratching the surface of the thing...
... given that, and the inability of the NHS to know what's happening to around 10% of covid sufferers who end up like me, let along treat it. Given that... I think maybe people should be a little more worried about catching covid. Just saying.
Oh, and for reference, before this thing I was fit as ****. Training six days a week on the bike, running, doing regular resistance work, no weight or underlying heath conditions and have barely seen my GP for years. Juts because you're fit and healthy, you're not guaranteed to have a mild experience of this thing. There are a fair few very fit folk out there who've had the same experience as me. I'm not advocating paranoia, just pointing out that the experience of covid-19 may not be quite the innocuous minor cold-like thing that you think.
Lets imagine there was no coronavirus. Government announces a bank holiday and everyone gets a free beer and an ice cream. How many people would disregard it?
Lets imagine there was a worldwide pandemic, 40000+ people in this country alone had died from it , there was no vaccine etc and the government asked you to adhere to a few simple rules to slow down/prevent transmission. How many people would disregard it? Quite a lot it seems because as above, people are dicks. My parents, my neighbours, the professional piss heads outside Wetherspoons at 10am, 'friends' on facebook, all those idiots who go to the beach/up mountains and complain about it being busy etc.
Of course the government are massively to blame for it all. "Stay home" became "stay safe", the death count became "only for people who have tested positive in the last 28 days" and you can **** off to Greece for your well deserved holidays and infect 200 people on a plane on the way home.
I know my statement that "I have not had contact with anyone WITH symptoms (of CV19)...." is true
you can make up whatever you like about asymptomatic transmission
calling someone stupid because they disagree with you
Selfish does not equal stupid. People who don’t understand enough about stopping transmission at this point to do the basics to prevent it are few and far between. Calling out those that don’t care about transmission because it is other people that will likely pay the price, not them… well I have no problem with people using jokey insults to make their point about that, none at all.
There are a fair few very fit folk out there who’ve had the same experience as me. I’m not advocating paranoia, just pointing out that the experience of covid-19 may not be quite the innocuous minor cold-like thing that you think.
Really sorry to hear that BWD, sounds brutal. I wasn't meaning to be dismissive about the prospect of catching it but I guess I'm very focussed on my partner who is in the highest risk category and less so for myself.
Of course the government are massively to blame for it all.
I imagine someone could do a reasonably decent estimate of how many lives were lost purely because Dominic Cummings didn't apologise or resign and people lost faith/used it as an excuse. Hundreds at least, probably thousands I would guess.
Woah… sorry to hear that BWD, we’re all hoping that the effects are medium term, rather than long term, for you. Crossing everything.
The governments advice and restrictions have been pretty inconsistent and sometimes downright contradictory from the start, so excuse me if I don't abide by them to the letter of the law. The biggest risk for spreading cv19 from our family is from us working, not the fact that we've met up for family picnics with more than 2 households. Call me a dick all you like it really won't change my clearly selfish attitude.
No, you just need to know how to talk to stupid people to get them to see things rather than just shout “you are stupid” at them.
Sometimes I think that the objective is not to change that person's mind (what are the chances? Ever seen it happen?) but rather to punish them for being stupid and selfish.
I am not the person for that job as I have not got the patience…
Well that's a stupid attitude 🙂
The biggest failure of the government is to allow GREAT BRITISH COMMON SENSE to set boundaries, rather than actually spell out consistent restrictions and the reasoning behind them. As this thread shows, some people will err on the side of extreme caution, perhaps too much <whistles>, while some will do the bare minimum or nothing at all, perhaps avoiding the major risk of transmission to offset some activity they really want to do.
The difference between these two positions is that the first absolutely does no harm, the second has some potential to do so. While that potential is hard to quantify, and may indeed be pretty small right now, the inability of this government to act in a timely and proportionate way means that, in the relatively near future, it may be a more serious issue.