Well if the over 60s are happy to go out and take the risk, that’s their call – it’s mainly their lives on the line.
Only if they agree to top themselves as soon as they get a cough? If not, they're taking up an intensive care bed that could be used by a cancer patient.
What a depressing amount of ignorance and selfishness on this thread.
A pandemic is pretty much the one instance where we all need to do as we're told so that the authorities can tweak the response as needed. You see how ****ed up the USA is? It's because people think they know better. Well, you don't.
****ing anti science ****ers.
Is anyone else still following Covid advice?
Yes. If you don't you're a dick.
A lot of the problem is the paradox of prevention, people are saying 'it's not that bad and the risk is low so why do I need to bother' because containment measures have been mostly effective (even if ineptly handled), and they don't understand how these things can spiral out of control without containment.
It's just lazy thinking though. I made the mistake of reading a Sun article with a worst case scenario government prediction and the amount of comments calling it a hoax and 'plandemic' was pretty worrying. We are already a long way down the Trump rabbit hole.
Well if the over 60s are happy to go out and take the risk, that’s their call – it’s mainly their lives on the line.
How is it just their lives on the line whereas for me walking around in the outside of a garden center with a mask on it is other peoples lives on the line that I need to 'protect' with my mask?
How is it just their lives on the line whereas for me walking around in the outside of a garden center with a mask on it is other peoples lives on the line that I need to ‘protect’ with my mask?
Not really sure I understand the Q, but generally older people are at a higher risk to dying from CV-19, so they are the bulk of the at risk group we are all protecting by wearing masks etc. Obs there are other at risk groups, imunocompromised, obese, diebetic etc.
A lot of the problem is the paradox of prevention
That’s where Cougar’s Y2K example comes in.
Molgrip’s point is also strong.
I think Davey has put it in terms everyone can understand though.
On the plus side, death rates are improving due to better care / treatment....
A pandemic is pretty much the one instance where we all need to do as we’re told so that the authorities can tweak the response as needed.
Even if those authorities are completely incompetent and politically motivated? The trouble with covid is that it requires a collective response. Unfortunately we've created a society over the past 40 years which has rejected any form of collectivist action in favour of selfish individualism. I don't agree with them, but can completely understand people not sticking to the rules, especially when the people making the rules do not practice what they preach.
I think Davey has put it in terms everyone can understand though.
If only the government could be quite so clear about it.
Is anyone else still following Covid advice?
Yes. If you don’t you’re a dick.
Not disagreeing but reducing the argument to this level is not going to win people over. Especially when we speak elsewhere about not following rules we disagree with.
The whole Brexit situation has shown that entrenched views don't become less entrenched by simply shouting 'YOU'RE WRONG! YOU ARE A DICK!' ever more loudly. Even if they are.
If we’d shut down much earlier, before it had spread everywhere, the shut down would have been a lot shorter and the economic damage far less. The mistake Boris made was to ignore all the ample warnings and wait till it was out of control and then shut down. Thus we got the best of both worlds, max deaths and max economic damage. World beating as he proclaimed.
This.
I tried to argue this with my BiL on Sunday, but he's gone a bit Brexity of late, so the government "couldn't have locked down any earlier as people wouldn't have listened". I pointed out that we are now at 5+ months and the majority of people are still listening, but by the end I suspect he was starting to think I am unpatriotic...
But I really couldn't put it any clearer.
We. Had. A. Two. Week. Head. Start. Over. Most. Of. Europe.
And Joris pissed it away.
Expecting our first child in a couple months, so we're still 'shielding' and essentially in lock-down to limit the risk;
- All food delivered and cleaned before putting it in the house
- All packaging opened outside and items quarantined for a number of days before it comes in
- No shops, meals, pubs or anything else for in public spaces.
- 'Bubbling' with another family that are also 'at risk' who are doing what we're doing
- We've met select friends and family in the garden or on a walk with 3+m distance between us and masks where necessary
It might sound extreme, but we're not taking any unnecessary risks with our first child. There is still a big unknown around the virus and its long term impact on babies & pregnant women.
I don't need the consumer spending and we're still seeing the friends and family we want.
We both work full time from home as the office doesn't exist anymore. I've actually enjoyed the work life balance. We've both agreed that once baby is here, fit and healthy, we'll start easing into 'new normal'.
I couldn't care less what people think of our current routine. We exercise more than ever before and walk the dogs as before. We're lucky as we live in the middle of no where.
It might sound extreme
Not really. Pretty much exactly what we're doing. The riskiest thing I've done is sit in a couple of pub gardens on breezy days. Mail gets left a couple of days unless the contents can be tipped out and the packaging ditched.
I think you can bring your shopping in to give it wipe down, though. The theoretical risk of surface contamination does not include a risk of airborne transmission. Just wipe down your surfaces after you've finished and wash your hands.
Like you, I couldn't care less if people are scoffing at our routines. We have two potentially vulnerable people in the household so everything is geared towards either not getting it at all, or at least making sure that potential viral load is as low as it can be.
When the kids head back, the emphasis turns to increasing ventilation inside the house, getting them to change out of their clothes on return and washing them. Probably won't make a difference to whether we catch it, but might reduce severity if viral load is reduced.
but there are alternative views that should be heard.
This is all going a bit brexity though….agree with us or we’ll all gang up and shout at you. Dismissing anyone with another view as a moron who’s just happy because McDonalds is open again is not they way to persuade and convince. Whether you happen to be right or not.
Not disagreeing but reducing the argument to this level is not going to win people over. Especially when we speak elsewhere about not following rules we disagree with.
The whole Brexit situation has shown that entrenched views don’t become less entrenched by simply shouting ‘YOU’RE WRONG! YOU ARE A DICK!’ ever more loudly. Even if they are.
Thanks @theotherjonv for your level-headed posts and do hope that others will take note. As someone who has polar opposite views to the overwhelming majority of those who've posted on this topic and also as someone who voted for Brexit for which I inevitably received flack, I'm not prepared to waste my precious little energy on defending my considered decisions.
There's far too much intolerance on here, the worst it's ever been in my dozen years or so as a Forum user. Will leave it there.
c_g - agree, its a shame.
Am i still following CV19 advice:
WFH except in situations where its not possible, once or twice a week i have to attend, i follow the one way systems, i use the hand sanitiser, i mask up in and out.
Social Distancing, probably bending the advice particularly the 'maximum number of households, this applies to social rides, pub gardens (outside) and its broadly the same extended group each time, so a large bubble? I think the only socialising indoors was with the FiL/MiL when we visited them two weeks ago - they have been isolated since march, we did offer to camp in their garden if they were concerned.
Ju Jitsu, binned (for some time to come i expect), my parents, ive only spoken to my mum through the closed conservatory door, less than half a dozen times since march (their rules, not mine), seen my 9yo niece twice since march, both outside
still my personal opinion is its unnecessary for the most part - but its not always my opinions that count
im intrigued in the proposed transmission route(s) which leads folk to clean deliverys and/or leave them outside
im intrigued in the proposed transmission route(s) which leads folk to clean deliverys and/or leave them outside
Pretty unlikely, but your shopping has been handled by a few people in the previous few hours before it arrives on your doorstep. Covid can persist on cardboard (up to 24 hours) for a relatively short space of time, on plastics for longer, days, potentially.
Although there are very few cases in my town, the towns just down the road have only just come out of 'special measures', so while the chances of a Tesco employee being asymptomatically infectious are small, but not vanishingly so.
Anyhow, it takes 10 minutes of my day, so not something that's 'ruining my life', to coin a phrase.
ok, thanks - i did understand then
personally i think its in the "vanishingly small risk" and would probably only change that view if i really felt that the driver, packer, postie etc 'likely' had it
im not criticising anyone, its your health, your choice....i eat fruit without washing it
.i eat fruit without washing it
Burn him!
i eat fruit without washing it
But do you wash your hands first?
Sorry - slightly trite and silly reply, but the point is that a few changes that everyone makes can make a huge difference.
I've been trying to quarantine parcels, but I forgotten a couple of times too. Has this made SOME difference to the risk to me? Yes. Has it made MUCH difference? On average, probably not.
Yeh, very low risk, like most things right now. I don't believe it was quite so low at the point when infection rates locally were much higher back in April/May, and I've just kept on doing it, in the expectation that rates are going to rise again anyway once the schools are back. Then again, once the schools are back, a bit of shopping is going to be the least of my worries.
if i really felt that the driver, packer, postie etc ‘likely’ had it
Stop the testing programme… it’s a waste of money… give this guy a quick glance at anyone and everyone to see if they’re “likely” to have it. I accept that this approach may not scale very well… but it should pay him well.
dannyh - if you mean do i wash my hands immediately before i eat the fruit, no. If i grab a banana right now, the last time i washed my hands was about 2hrs ago after i popped out for a cuppa and a rollie...
kelvin - apols, i didnt want to write the whole essay, you are right, I cannot "SEE" if someone has the virus but then i did say "if i really felt....." its a personal assessment.
local infection rates are very very low, im running the risk that the postie has the/a virus and is transmitting it asymptomatically.
im also running the risk that 'someone' in the supermarket licked the bananas....
ok, so nobody washes bananas, but i dont wash the grapefruit either 🙂
@cokie
Member
Expecting our first child in a couple months
Just wanted to say congratulations. I became a grandad days before lockdown began and it was a big worry but glad to say all went well.
Only held him the day of his birth as no matter what bubbles are allowed im not risking passing it on to my mother so I have zero contact with anyone, even my other half whom I don't live with. Spent socially distanced days (well, few hours) out with son, his partner and baby though and I'll spoil him when all this is over.😃
Pretty unlikely, but your shopping has been handled by a few people in the previous few hours before it arrives on your doorstep.
Order your groceries from Ocado or Morrisons, the bags are packed by Robots in a freezing cold warehouse and put in crates and then cages to be rolled into the wagon, and then into the delivery vans. So nobody touches the actual shopping items at all.
Minimal risk of any contamination from anyone touching anything other than the driver carrying the crate the bags are hung in on the way to your door.
I find life busy and confusing enough without having to constantly tailor my covid countermeasures to whether Joris or anyone else wants Pret a Manger to survive one minute or everyone (except Dominic Cumstains) to become a hermit the next.
Sensible precautions are not 'ruining' my life. Occasionally forgetting is not something I then beat myself up about for days, either. Just a 'doh' and try to remember next time.
A few weeks ago I ended up doing a totally unnecessary round trip when I would rather have been doing something else. I was tasked with picking up some bits from a shop as part of a trip out for something else. I forgot to take a mask. Sure, I could have shopped without a mask and grunted "I'm exempt" like I have seen others do. There is no real way to check if you are awkward enough. But I didn't. I went home and got a mask.
I haven't forgotten since, though. That's learning, is that....
the bags are packed by Robots in a freezing cold warehouse and put in crates and then cages to be rolled into the wagon,
So basically packed by Bender, delivered by Fry?
The freezing cold warehouse is not helping, be better if the warehouse was really hot (but maybe not for the food!)
The freezing cold warehouse is not helping..
No, that was more of a memory from spending a very uncomfortable couple of hours in there rather than an Anti Covid element to be fair.
The freezing cold warehouse is not helping, be better if the warehouse was really hot (but maybe not for the food!)
It would have been better if Joris had stayed in there, whatever the temperature.
There’s far too much intolerance on here, the worst it’s ever been in my dozen years or so as a Forum user. Will leave it there.
If you take actions and make decisions that adversely affect folks lives, livelihood and health then expect to get called out for it - especially if you're not even prepared to defend those decisions. Real life isn't some BBC panel show where they have to have climate change deniers on just to "balance" the discussion regardless of the science.
It'a not about "intolerance" but rather this is a singular situation where opinion - yours, mine, anyone else's - is irrelevant.
Because this is the issue with conspiracy theories / alternative therapies / whatever. In and of itself it's harmless, the Flat Earth brigade or the moon landing deniers are bonkers but they're not hurting anyone and it gives them a hobby / community / sense of being "in the know" so fair play, let them crack on. It's when this line of thinking actually supplants facts, vulnerable people start rejecting chemotherapy in favour of vitamin supplements and big groups of people organise raves as a 'sticking it to the man' protest, that the stakes suddenly become literally life and death.
This is not an "opinions" or "beliefs" argument. It's taking small and sensible safety precautions even if you think that the entire thing is fictional, because if you're right then big whoop you've had to wash your hands a bit more, if you're wrong then many more people will get very sick and maybe even die.
Worth the gamble?
sorry Cougar, i disagree.
a huge amount of whats discussed in this, the eleventeen* other CV19 threads or similarly in Brexit threads is opinion, its stw users interpretation of governmant (devolved or otherwise) guidelines which were based (apparently) on scientific evidence.
fact is, the science has been playing catch up since January and continues to do so
government guidelines are fast changing and sometimes immediately contradictory, which then means that all we are dealing with here are opinions and beliefs.
^^ someone up there believes you have to quarantine your shopping, my opinion is that i can buy from the supermarket and eat it. (im not dead, he/she hasnt starved, we are both winning - and neither of us is printing leaflets enforcing our views on others)
the points made on the last page, that you shouldnt result to insults to try to 'win' the argument still stand.
*great album if a little raw
its a personal assessment
Based on what? You know zero about the people delivering to you, what are you using to assess if someone might be carrying the virus… just a gut hunch?
im not dead
Coronavirus isn’t going to kill you, or me… not being involved in transmission isn’t about avoiding our own early deaths.
I’m not prepared to waste my precious little energy on defending my considered decisions.
@c_g Curious to know what the considerations were based on ...
Worth the gamble?
It is a sort of Game Theory.
Is it easier to 'gamble' when it is someone else's chips? When that person probably doesn't even know you are gambling with their chips? When, even if they did catch it and died, there is no way it could ever be pinned conclusively on you?
What is more important? Getting out of following a few fairly non-life-ruining precautions or risking someone else's life?
I guess it will make a fascinating case study into the character of individuals at some point in the future.
Quarantining food/deliveries... washing hands... wearing a mask.... All little things that take very little time and money even if you consider some of it "over the top".
Basically doing things like the above or being ultra, ultra careful does ZERO harm to the person themselves or anyone else.
Going the other way absolutely DOES do harm.
kelvin - actually i do know most if not all the delivery drivers to the village. my personal assessment is based on the numbers of infections in the area.
granted that picture was potentially unreliable back in march, april... but now that testing is actually happening, im confident that the 10 local cases are very unlikely to include Martin (postie)
its truer to say you know zero about me or my circumstances
the numbers of infections in the area
All your delivery drivers live in your area?
Only deliver to your area?
Haven’t spent time outside your area?
Interesting…
a huge amount of whats discussed in this, the eleventeen* other CV19 threads or similarly in Brexit threads is opinion, its stw users interpretation of governmant (devolved or otherwise) guidelines which were based (apparently) on scientific evidence.
On the Brexit thread point:
Who keeps on being proved right by events?
On covid:
Is it worth the risk just to be able to say afterwards 'I told you so'?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zUoT5AxFpRs
I just got reminded that there's one covid rule I've never followed and never will. Social distance, no bother. Masks, got it. Don't stroke that dog? Unpossible.
of course there is the % chance that the temp, wide roaming asymptomatic delivery driver manages to put the virus on the envelope and i might get it when i open it with my teeth.
course then we are into viral load.
but then posibly i become asymptomatic and pass it across a pub garden table to a friend who then kills his mum.
we are still in vanishingly small territory.
and sorry dannyh, i have little intention of blindly following the CV19 rules particularly where they appear dreamt up by the paranoid furloughed masses.
the paranoid furloughed masses
Oh, you are one of ‘those’ people. Got it. You’ll be 100% confident that you think for yourself as well.