[Closed] iPhone X

$350 for the SE seems like pretty good value though.

Theres only been two big leaps in phone tech

1) Mass market cellular phones Nokia etc.
2) Touchscreens and Apps from the first Iphone.

There wasnt any yesterday only the watch comes close.

If Steve Jobs was at the helm that watch would have been sold as a standalone device with good battery life and voice recognition for functions not easily done on a small device,

Lots of folk could then bin off the phone and just have a watch and iPad, Imac set up.

Apple has the same problem as the rest of them, lack of imagination and a business that makes too much money from shifting little boxes.

$350 for the SE seems like pretty good value though.

Is the new watch the only Smar****ch on the market which has cellular functionality?
RM.

$350 for the SE seems like pretty good value though.

As mentioned earlier I picked up a mint 64GB SE on eBay for £195.
I imagine they will be even cheaper on there now (or very soon).

If Steve Jobs was at the helm that watch would have been sold as a standalone device with good battery life and voice recognition for functions not easily done on a small device,

But the trouble is, none of that is easily done on a small device!

Most smartphones only just make it through the day and they have massive batteries compared to a watch. If you start adding stuff like "Hey Siri" always-on voice recognition plus GPS and 3G cellular radio to a watch then the battery won't last past lunchtime.

Like a lot of technology the thing that is really holding us back is a massive improvement in battery technology and/or power efficiency.

Is the new watch the only Smar****ch on the market which has cellular functionality?

I think there is an LG or perhaps Samsung that have cellular.

Guy at work got one. It's massive. Works the same way as the new Apple Watch I think (e.g. no SIM number sync over LTE).

Face recognition. It's going to be great on a cold day in a cold country when you have a scarf over your face. Or when you have sunnnies or normal glasses on. Windows Hello doesn't recognise me in my specs, which isn't personally a problem since I rarely wear them but could be a ballache for some. And of course it's aimed at desktop usage where scarves and sunglasses shouldn't be an issue.

FaceID UX comments …

I will admit I have not tried Face ID yet,

I have an iPhone 6s and after everything I have read I really can't see a reason to upgrade – I was hoping for something game-changing but all we have is an iterative development and a design that really doesn't inspire. And the little black panel jutting out at the top of the screen (housing the mic etc) – that would annoy the hell out of me when looking at things full screen (ie, watching a movie) – it just gets in the way.

My business partner has a 7Plus (S?) whatever the latest one was before last night's announcement and he is creaming himself at the thought of getting the top of the range Ten / X / 10 simply because it is the latest model.

Face recognition. It's going to be great on a cold day in a cold country when you have a scarf over your face. Or when you have sunnnies or normal glasses on.

It [i]should[/i] cope with normal glasses just fine, sunnies maybe not.

Scarf.. well it depends how good the IR camera is and how thick your scarf is.

I wonder if it works with burqas and niqabs?

[i]Or when you have sunnnies or normal glasses on.[/i]

Surely this would all be part of the setup. I mean, it's not going to recognise your face out of the box (phone out of the box, not face) - you'd have to set it up to recognise you, like what you do with the fingerprint thing now.

There were some more legitimate concerns in the US around it being used to bypass your rights and unlocking the device by the police/immigration without your consent or a few blokes worried their partner would unlock it when they were asleep...

FaceID UX comments …

There were some more [s]legitimate[/s] concerns

I wonder if it works with burqas and niqabs?

Stupid idea.

You moved from "bullshit" to "may have a point" quite quickly there.
The tech will work (or if there are issues, will be sorted fast) but the adaption to and adoption of the UX will be interesting to watch. Strange that they added fingerprint rec to the new MacBook Pros, rather than this tech, because the FaceID interaction would be far more expected/necessary there.

There were some more legitimate concerns in the US around it being used to bypass your rights and unlocking the device by the police/immigration without your consent or a few blokes worried their partner would unlock it when they were asleep...

I think you need to have your eyes open, which makes sunglasses a bit of an issue unless the infra red can see behind them.

If Steve Jobs was at the helm that watch would have been sold as a standalone device with good battery life and voice recognition for functions not easily done on a small device,

Nah, Jobs was a marketing genius not a magican, what Apple miss since he left is a bit of their prowess when it comes to selling a limitation as a benefit.

Maybe he could have reversed the wireless charging on the phone so you could charge your watch from your phone and you'd have the Apple Faithful sat on the train with their phone on their wrist feeling smug because it was game changing thinking.

Do people not realise you can authenticate ahead of time for an Apple Pay transaction? Double-tap on the home button, give it your thumb and the text turns into "Hold near reader to pay" and you just wave it over the reader like any contactless card.

This is more revolutionary to me then the new phones!

More days have gone past since my last post re my recent upgrade from a 6 to the 7, I really miss the headphone jack. I picked up some knock off 3.5 to lightening cables which worked for all of 2 songs before they were not recognised... on the plus side, I do really like the 3D touch to get to shortcuts in apps without opening them.

if they (or you) had actually watched the presentation you'd be aware it's harder for that to happen than with fingerprint recognition as you have to be both awake (eyes open) and looking at the screen.

The points in the linked article were actually decent though. My nexus is unlocked by the time it's picked up, for payments it's done in a second - no "selfie pose" required, basically they have done away with a really quick and rapid unlock and replaced it with a slower more awkward option or told you to go back to a pass code. You might call that innovation but it doesn't seem like it. I await the line of people at the self serve checkout staring into their phones before paying - or go back to plan b of tape your bank card to the back of the phone 😉

Sunglasses… does the dot projector use non-visible light?
Remember, this uses proper 3D face rec, not just image based stuff that others rushed to market.

There were some more legitimate concerns in the US around it being used to bypass your rights and unlocking the device by the police/immigration without your consent

Same issue with fingerprint TouchID I think. As I understand it if you are under criminal investigation then the police can't force you to enter your passcode for your phone, but they [i]can[/i] take your fingerprints.

Talking about the facial recognition with my [identical] twin daughters earlier. They pointed out that they could probably open each others phone
Stupid idea.

Well no. Assuming that it isn't smart enough to spot the difference between identical twins (it might well be) then the stupid part would be deciding to activate facial recognition when you know you have an evil identical twin.

[i]You moved from "bullshit" to "may have a point" quite quickly there.[/i]

Yeah, but "bullshit" wasn't referring specifically to the [i]UX comments[/i], was it.

I'm a simple man.

Just give me a SE sized iPhone, the guts of a 7 with an edge to edge screen and a bit thicker to allow for a bigger battery.

Oh, and leave the headphone jack.

I can wait till September 2018.

@sharkbait they discussed this yesterday, basically said twins (those with close genetic relationship I think they said) could open each others phones

As above you don't have to turn it on. I still open my 6 and iPad with pin 80% (?) of the time

Yeah I'd probably buy that Jamie. Especially if they made it waterproof too.

@Jamie agreed I would prefer a thicker phone with a bigger battery. Without a case the 6 is too thin imo

I'm with you Jamie, except the headphone jack… more battery and completely sealed instead please.

more battery

You know the whole wireless charging thing..

Presumably that means that now, instead of carrying round a little powerbank or USB cable to charge your phone up when going away for the weekend, you are now going to have to carry round a F-off big wireless charging pad in your bag?

Optional Ninfan, no need to stress.

the stupid part would be deciding to activate facial recognition when you know you have an evil identical twin.

As above you don't have to turn it on

You know the whole wireless charging thing..

Presumably that means that now, instead of carrying round a little powerbank or USB cable to charge your phone up when going away for the weekend, you are now going to have to carry round a F-off big wireless charging pad in your bag?

Wirelessly charged phones have been around for ages. Every single one is also able to be charged with a wire.

Face recognition. It's going to be great on a cold day in a cold country when you have a scarf over your face.

does it still have pin code entry then? Didn't know that.

You moved from "bullshit" to "may have a point" quite quickly there.

does it still have pin code entry then? Didn't know that.

Every single one is also able to be charged with a wire.

Ah, but apple are on the case now... see headphone jacks as an example, USB ports on laptops as another 😉

Face recognition. It's going to be great on a cold day in a cold country when you have a scarf over your face.

I wonder if there's a way to remove the scarf?

It's rather clever really.

Release 8 and X at same time. 8 is barely different from anything already on the market, and X is MOAR shiny new new shiny. Hence, the iColytes will all have to buy X. Because, shiny.

Disclosure: I haven't watch the whole keynote.

The FaceID thing must be using some incredibly granular scanning to be able to do what they showed it doing. Being able to wrap a mask in detail over a face in realtime is extrodinary! And Mr Ives little showcase at the end showed a ladies face in lots of scenarios, that indicates a good intention to get this done right.

With this in mind, the map it builds of the owners face to enable unlocking must be very detailed and able to use a fairly low % of match to allow the unlock/athentcation to happen.

i.e. if you have sunnnies on, full pirate with eye patch, Zoro fetish outfit, its not too much of a worry because the map of the rest of the face is so detailed that it provides a good enough match.

As it's also a 3d map, I would imagine that the approach angle to the camera/scanner thing can be quite acute and still work.

This is all congecture of course until all the keen people get their real fisogs pressed to the screens.

Interesting Peter - and it got me thinking - is it *really* doing the sort of facial scanning that their little graphic demos show or is it really just a slightly more sophistimicated version of current facial recognition? It does smack a bit of Minority Report / Mission: Impossible to me and I wouldn't be surprised to find out that the reality isn't quite so sexy.

Some notes from a Grauniad journo who has actually used FaceID

[url= https://theoverspill.blog/2017/09/13/start-up-apple-pay-on-iphone-x-russias-fake-americans-yelp-accuses-google-and-more/#link3 ]https://theoverspill.blog/2017/09/13/start-up-apple-pay-on-iphone-x-russias-fake-americans-yelp-accuses-google-and-more/#link3[/url]

I’m pretty sure Ron wasn’t at the Apple event, so didn’t get hands-on time with the iPhone X. I was, and did. Apple Pay with facial recognition is a key question I’ve raised myself in the past, so asked for a demo.

The unlocking works at easy arm’s length; it’s not like Samsung’s formal version. It’s quick – probably as fast as the first-generation TouchID. For Apple Pay, you could double-click the side button while it’s in your pocket, pull it out, face unlock as you walk (towards a TfL terminal, say) and hold it to the reader. The pay system remains active for 60 seconds. Plus – an advantage – you don’t have to “end-hold” it, where it’s liable to fall or be knocked out of your hand; you’ll be holding it in your full hand grip.

Interesting Peter - and it got me thinking - is it *really* doing the sort of facial scanning that their little graphic demos show

Some notes from a Grauniad journo who has actually used FaceID

re FaceID and MTB.. what if I happen to wear a full face and goggles on the bike but need to stop to open my phone to check something? Presume i'll have to remove those to unlock the device? instead of just a glove for TouchID now.. potential annoyance for motorcyclists too? 😐

I wonder if there's a way to remove the scarf?

Of course, Mr Sarkypants, but the point is it's extra faff, and not necessary when using a finger print scanner. You do need to remove your gloves, but you've probably done this already to use the phone.

Presume i'll have to remove those to unlock the device?

No, you can just enter your passcode instead. Same as TouchID.

No, you can just enter your passcode instead. Same as TouchID.

Ah, of course. what a silly billy i am.

Of course, Mr Sarkypants, but the point is it's extra faff, and not necessary when using a finger print scanner.

Not for a scarf no but it is if you're wearing gloves even for the lock code.

You do need to remove your gloves, but you've probably done this already to use the phone.

So not a big step to remove a scarf or use the lock code then?

[i]So not a big step to remove a scarf or use the lock code then?[/i]

Fercrissake just go indoors wouldja

So not a big step to remove a scarf or use the lock code then?

Yeah, it's more work. We should be making things quicker and easier, not more faffy. Doesn't sound great, so far, but we'll see if the market likes it or not.

[img] [/img]

I wear gloves much more often than I wear a scarf, taking one off to unlock my phone has never seemed the ordeal that pulling down a scarf is being represented as.

FaceID people where asking about beards earlier but Apple said thr tech kearns and adjusts, sonif you start growing a beard / putting on weight it learns your face is changing and adapts

I imagine it'll be like the face scanners at passport control no? On my passport I haven't a beard but I still get through now even with my lustrous mane...

I wear gloves much more often than I wear a scarf, taking one off to unlock my phone has never seemed the ordeal that pulling down a scarf is being represented as.

Oh for goodness' sake!

Of course it's not being presented as an ordeal. I am talking about the ergonomics of something you do dozens of times a day and personally, I like that to be as near to instant as possible.

There's no doubt it'll work. The question is whether or not it'll be better than a fingerprint reader.

The question is whether or not it'll be better than a fingerprint reader.

for use on a desktop/laptop there's no question it'll be better than a fingerprint reader IMO

Agree. Windows Hello is great in that application.

But we are talking about phones aren't we? And they have removed the fingerprint scanner from the phones, so it's this or a pin, isn't it?

Makes me lol the way everyone queues up to poor scorn on anything new instead of showing a little imagination/optimism.

To me faceID seems a viable option, along with passcode it's a similar process as now with the fingerprintID and passcode.

The action to hold the phone up to fingerprintID currently means I'm 99% of the time looking into the phone as is, this new option means I've no need to bother wiggling the phone around to get my thumb in the "correct" position. Also, on access using fingerprintID as now, I'd say 60% of the time it fails to recognise my thumbprint and I have to passcode myself in anyway.

So in my conclusion, it'll take me about 5 mins to get used to faceID UI and probably have similar access issues and have to passcode myself in as I do now.

No real bother.

I'm all for the Emoji AR animations in texts me 😆

On my Samsung the home button is the scanner. So I press home to wake it up, and it also magically unlocks.

The action to hold the phone up to fingerprintID currently means I'm 99% of the time looking into the phone as is, this new option means I've no need to bother wiggling the phone around to get my thumb in the "correct" position. Also, on access using fingerprintID as now, I'd say 60% of the time it fails to recognise my thumbprint and I have to passcode myself in anyway.

Maybe I've just got cake all over my thumbs 😆

in somewhere crowded like the underground not having to look at your phone to use it would be good.

You will be able to take a call and/or use siri for functions that do not require unlocking just as you do now, exactly how many other functions of a smart phone are there that doesn't require you to look at the screen.

In that case the Apple fingerprint thing sounds crap in comparison to others then...

The only problems I have had with apple's fingerprint scanner (other than wearing gloves) is if my hands are a bit wet, ie mid workout, but I just wipe my thumb on my shorts and then it works.

There are as many if not more potential problems with a thumb reader as their are with face recognition if both are done to a decent standard. But face recognition is not something that makes me want to upgrade.

fairly easy for say the police to stick the phone in front of your face and POW it opens

whereas now you can refuse to use the fingerprint scanner or passcode to unlock your phone there is no legal protection to having the phone put vaguely in front of your face

https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/contactless/other-methods-of-contactless-payment/apple-pay
The article was specifically talking about using apple pay for the barriers on the underground and stuff like that.

So when do we think the 'deals' will start to come out?

My out of contract 6 doesn't have enough memory, and the battery is dying.

So I'm thinking of a 7 which will hopefully become cheaper. Really cant see what more I would get from an 8?

I would go for the SE, but if I am going to start a new contract, I may as well have waterproof.

in somewhere crowded like the underground not having to look at your phone to use it would be good.

fairly easy for say the police to stick the phone in front of your face and POW it opens

whereas now you can refuse to use the fingerprint scanner or passcode to unlock your phone there is no legal protection to having the phone put vaguely in front of your face

I think there is a potential problem there, one that isn't just about technology, but about privacy rights under law and authoritarian process. But I would like to see how technology could protect the individual rights in that circumstance.

[i]not having to look at your phone to use it would be good[/i]

What would you be using your phone for where you don't look at it??

Of course it's not being presented as an ordeal. I am talking about the ergonomics of something you do dozens of times a day and personally, I like that to be as near to instant as possible.

Do you wear a scarf all day?

What would you be using your phone for where you don't look at it??

bikebouy: sounds like you need to set up TouchID again. I have thumb and forefinger of both hands registered and can't say I ever have much bother getting it to work. Most of the time it unlocks before I've even thought about it.

What would you be using your phone for where you don't look at it??

Driving is the obvious one for me. Siri won't read out incoming text messages unless the phone is unlocked. Having TouchID means I can unlock it without even looking at my phone.

Paying for stuff, unlock tap and go

I am not sure where you see the extra delay for face recognition instead of a thumb reader in that process.

Of course it's not being presented as an ordeal. I am talking about the ergonomics of something you do dozens of times a day and personally, I like that to be as near to instant as possible.

Yes it does well certainly with CarPlay is does.

Having TouchID means I can unlock it without even looking at my phone.

You're driving why are you touching your phone?

I am not sure where you see the extra delay for face recognition instead of a thumb reader in that process.

fairly easy for say the police to stick the phone in front of your face and POW it opens

whereas now you can refuse to use the fingerprint scanner or passcode to unlock your phone there is no legal protection to having the phone put vaguely in front of your face

They've introduced a new "anti-police" feature where if you tap the power button 6 times quickly it disables FaceID and wont open anything without passcode.

Link:
https://www.theverge.com/2017/8/17/16161758/ios-11-touch-id-disable-emergency-services-lock

100% pointless phone and I'll be laughing (on the inside) at anyone that gets one over the next 18month until #11 comes out and then I'll repeat the process....

You're driving why are you touching your phone?

...to unlock it...? Was that not clear?

So it seems likely there are going to be pro's and con's to this. With not everyone getting the full 'works for me' quota.

And thus it will always be.

As an IT bod, it reasuring that beneath the showcase fluff at these sorts of keynotes there is technology and process being developed that hopfully can be spun off into other areas. I have no idea what these areas are, as I'm not a creative sort of chap, but my spidey senses indicate it too be so.

100% pointless phone and I'll be laughing (on the inside) at anyone that gets one over the next 18month until #11 comes out and then I'll repeat the process....

You sound like a hoot

to unlock it...? Was that not clear?

Yes but you're driving why are you touching your phone?

As explained, in order for me to use the hands-free voice-enabled features of my phone, I sometimes require to first unlock it, which involves the INCREDIBLY DANGEROUS manoeuvre of briefly moving my left hand several centimetres from the gearstick to touch the phone with my thumb. An action that takes all of two seconds, without taking my eyes off the road ahead, and is usually done while I am completely stationary.

I understand that in your position you are twitchy about such things Drac, but honestly changing the radio station is a far greater risk.