Sure, I think the man on the Clapham omnibus is aware of the damage Co2 is doing to our climate, that’s all that really needs to be understood.
That's not what the BBC/David Attenborough's TV programmes are simply about.
It was alleged on this thread that the BBC/David Attenborough were being hypocritical for flying across the world making programmes about our fragile planet.
I pointed out that it wasn't simply entertainment but played a vital role in informing people and educating them. It is important to keep driving the point and emphasising how worthwhile the protection of the natural world is.
Feel free to disagree with me but what I am referring to is not simply about CO2 levels and how they should be tackled, as you seem to think.
The idea that the BBC shouldn’t produce the programmes it does which are narratated David Attenborough because they are bad for the environment and is therefore hypocritical, as suggested on the previous page of this thread, is ridiculous.
This.
Calling anyone raising issues around the environment a "hypocrite" is the first line of attack these days. Not, "what they say is happening isn't"... that one has dried up... it's now "we shouldn't listen to what they say we should change as a society, because I have evidence that they use taxis/planes/singleglazing".
these aren’t ‘legitimate’ protests anyway
Ignore the majority at your peril…
Tyranny of the masses.
So stop “shooting the messenger” – and start hammering the government
It's not going to happen, sadly. The negative reporting of these protestors (who are somehow both "crusties" and "rich retired people with too much time on their hands") will just increase. The papers know they have hit a nerve with a majority of readers/clickers, so an every decreasing spiral of vilification will keep going.
It will be interesting to see how COP26 is reported.
Insulate Britain / Extinction Rebellion *know* that they’re going to be unpopular with an idiot public who are so poorly educated they can’t comprehend the consequences of running our society in the way we do.
+1
Ignore the majority at your peril…
I don't think the IB protests are about ignoring the majority, but you open that window a little wider if it's too warm for you with the wood burner going.
Meanwhile, today I learned the word "Medicane".
I pointed out that it wasn’t simply entertainment but played a vital role in informing people and educating them. It is important to keep driving the point and emphasising how worthwhile the protection of the natural world is.
I think they've failed in that regard then. The stupidity of the public understood that the problem was single-use plastic straws and put pressure on suppliers to stop providing plastic straws rather than putting pressure on the waste stream to stop letting plastic straws get in the sea! Low attention span public think they've done their bit by buying a paper cup with a paper straw and using a bag for life when they drive a mile to the shops.
There are some fairly obvious steps that could be done straight away that could make massive in-roads into reducing the damage, again you’d have to have lived under a rock not to know this
Monbiot had this nailed 15 years ago. Many of the things he talks about are already happening such as online food deliveries. Many however are not, or are not happening fast enough. As he says in the book, the only thing we'd really have to change in our lives for which there isn't a viable solution is flying a lot. If anyone has read it yet you really should. Still though the usual suspects on here will dismiss him as a hair-shirted hippy idealist.
https://www.monbiot.com/books/heat/
Is a good read. I’ve not flown for 15 years partly down to him (he wasn’t a lone voice).
Our combined man-made biodiversity crisis (mass extinction event), global heating and trashing of the natural world – upon which our very lives rely – is *more* urgent than votes for girls or black emancipation in South Africa.
Wow. 'Our cause is sooo much more important than your cause and we're soo much more important than you!' Way to go. Because that's going to be a winning strategy...
Insulate Britain / Extinction Rebellion *know* that they’re going to be unpopular with an idiot public who are so poorly educated they can’t comprehend the consequences of running our society in the way we do.
'We're so much more intelligent than you thick plebs so listen to us!'
Another winning strategy. Woohoo!
Expect direct action to escalate – we’re going to go from peaceful protest – which is what this is – to violent action in the coming years
That simply validates violent counter-action. sp; it'll be ok for members of the public to attack IUB protestors then; if I consider that MY need to get to work etc is of greater importance than your protest, then it's fine for me to use force to get you out of my way. You've just validated that.
Tyranny of the masses.
So you're against democracy? Ok then. Expect kickback from 'pro-democracy' protestors...
Thanks to all those who have demonstrated so perfectly here, the sheer brilliance of the tactics of IB/XR in achieving necessary change in society. It's so good for us to have you help enlighten us all, and lead us out of the darkness...
*Lights bonfire. Throws some XR placards on for fuel*
So you’re against democracy?
No, I'm against protestors being attacked with the excuse that "the majority" don't like their methods and/or cause.
It seems that IB have finally understood that sitting in the middle of the road and stopping hard working British citizens from getting to work or visiting sick relatives in hospital were alienating the very people they should be getting onside.
Insulate Britains 'Biff' said
We've had feedback that people are frustrated that they spent time in traffic queues.
"We're not planning to stop traffic but it could slow down to five miles an hour."
No, I’m against protestors being attacked with the excuse that “the majority” don’t like their methods and/or cause.
They can hardly complain about people resorting to direct action against them when they are breaking the law themselves.
That's the same for all vigilante action. Are you up for people being attacked in the street for parking across double yellows while buying their fish and chips?
Here's an example of personal responsibility vs government.
I used to fly for work, before COVID. I've been criticised for this a fair bit from some people. Now - it wasn't me choosing to do it, I was being sent there, and it's a condition of the job that I agree to do this. I could change jobs, but then my employer would find someone else who would do it, because if we didn't a competitor would and they'd gain an advantage. So the flights would still get made.
If a government banned or heavily penalised these kinds of flights (it won't, but that's another story) then we'd have to stop, I could keep my job, our competitors wouldn't gain an advantage by doing it, and the number of miles flown would plummet immediately. But the work would still get done as it'd be done remotely.
It’s so good for us üntermensch to have you help enlighten us all, and lead us out of the darkness…
NOW I understand! Inaction on climate change is simply a mass action of cutting off their nose to spite everyone's faces, and if only IB had, I dunno, stuck to politely handing out leaflets in city centres, we'd all have been carbon negative years ago. Thanks for the insight.
They can hardly complain about people resorting to direct action against them when they are breaking the law themselves.
Exactly. At least someone understood my point.
Thanks for the insight.
No; thank you.
Are you up for people being attacked in the street for parking across double yellows while buying their fish and chips?
Death penalty.
Summary execution by members of the public whipped into a fury by the press? Or due process of arrest, charged, trial, and penalty?
I support them more now x
Calling anyone raising issues around the environment a “hypocrite” is the first line of attack these days. Not, “what they say is happening isn’t”… that one has dried up… it’s now “we shouldn’t listen to what they say we should change as a society, because I have evidence that they use taxis/planes/singleglazing”.
we all know it’s happening. It’s the fact that those who want everyone to make changes to help solve the problem don’t seem to want to set an example themselves by leading that change. Whether it’s David Attenborough, Billy Windsor or Greta. They all get preachy to the rest of us whilst doing nothing themselves
You don’t want ‘everyone’ to make changes? Why not?
There's an Indy article saying that they've changed tactics and are now walking up hard shoulders with banners.
The group, who previously blocked roads by sitting in front of cars and glueing themselves to the roads, have now changed tack and have been spotted walking along the white lines of the M25. They opted to stop sitting on the roads after receiving “feedback” that many drivers were frustrated by their actions.
https://www.indy100.com/news/insulate-britain-protests-johnson-storm-m25-b1947664
it’s David Attenborough,
So you are back to attacking David Attenborough?
Well if you want to keep pushing the line that David Attenborough is a hypocrite good luck with that.
But if they start being more law-abiding and less obstructive to ordinary people just going about their lawful business, who will we have to hate now? Will it be immigrants again? I'm bored with hating immigrants. Most of them are very nice. 🙁
George Monbiot has done more than his fair share of flying round the planet...
Definitely a hypocrite then. Let's not listen to him. Or anyone. Heads down, in the sand, lazily labelling anyone trying to inform us of, and persuade politicians to facilitate, the changes needed, as hypocrites. Let it all burn down.
No; thank you.
You're welcome.
Now - how politely do IB have to protest before you deign to get on board?
Definitely a hypocrite then. Let’s not listen to him. Or anyone. Heads down, in the sand, lazily labelling anyone trying to inform us of, and persuade politicians to facilitate, the changes needed, as hypocrites. Let it all burn down.
Once again (it's a regular occurrence..) you miss the point...
Monbiot himself has admitted his own hypocrisy. He enjoys an enviable lifestyle because of the wealth and privilege he was born into. He knows this. Which is why being part of a movement that prevents ordinary people getting to work etc, is an abuse of that privilege. For all his good works, Monbiot, like all of us, has to take a look at himself, and understand the world doesn't revolve around HIM. That's the principle failing of XR and IB; they really don't understand that most folk simply don't have the luxury of being able to care sufficiently in order to make major changes to their lifestyles. If XR/IB etc want people to insulate their homes better, they need to come up with a better plan than one which may well actually cost people needlessly. Because most people can't afford to take time off work to indulge a bunch of privileged narcissists.
most folk simply don’t have the luxury of being able to care sufficiently in order to make major changes to their lifestyles.
Most folk won't have the luxury of voluntarily making positive changes to their lifestyles pretty soon.
@bridges - if you can't see that our intertwined global crises of mass extinction events, global heating and other devastating environmental crises - crises in critical systems we *all* rely on to live - are bigger in scope than votes for women in Blighty in 1903 and the emancipation of black people in a single country then I'm more happy to dismiss you as thick.
Because, clearly, you are.
You're not going to come round. Ever. It's clear you don't understand the criticality of the issues in front of the human race. After years of public campaigns, anyone who isn't on the same page is now just a stubborn obstacle to be ignored and overcome.
The time for "winning hearts and minds" - is over. It's time for action.
they really don’t understand that most folk simply don’t have the luxury of being able to care sufficiently in order to make major changes to their lifestyles
Is that why IB are pushing for the government to prioritise funding and planning to bring social housing stock insulation up to scratch? They are not the ones forcing the poor to make a choice between paying heating bills or feeding their families... they are pushing for the government to take charge of updating the housing stock of some of the poorest in society to reduce emissions and also to decrease the cost of living for those living in those homes.
It is not IB that think it can be left to individuals to choose to make (expensive in the short term) decisions that many simply can not afford to take (or can't take because they don't own their own homes)... they are the ones making the point that it is the government that needs to act.
Totally agree @Kelvin
The insulation could be done *for free* - with money we already pay in our taxes - if we stopped subsidising fossil fuels at current subsidy levels and insulated instead.
But even if we don't - there's lots of other stuff we could re-prioitise
HS2 has an outside cost estimate of £98bn to shave 20 minutes off brum to london
Insulation of the 7.5 million housing stock is cost comparative
Cleaning up the the majority of sewage that's p1ssing into our rivers and the sea is cost comparative.
Two of those three should take clear priority over one of those three...
We've *stacks* of cash in the western world. Even if we don't - we need to repurpose our economy if it doesn't allow us to respond to existential crises.
There's no excuses. We need to act.
HS2 has an outside cost estimate of £98bn to shave 20 minutes off brum to london
Disingenuous
The time for “winning hearts and minds” – is over. It’s time for action.
What's the action meant to achieve? Win hearts and minds..?
Nothing happens in any country without someone's heart and mind being behind it.
Nothing happens in any country without someone’s heart and mind being behind it.
Who's "hearts and minds" prioritised reducing taxes on banks in this budget? It wasn't in the Conservative manifesto. It's never been voted on by the public. It isn't backed by the "majority" of the "people"... the government just gets on and does it. The government need to just get on with [ better ] insulating our housing stock, through planning, legislation, tax rules and investment... starting with social housing and all new builds.
Disingenuous
Oh, I agree with this molgrips.
We're currently pricing people off of trains for long journeys, and onto the motorways and into the air. We need more rail capacity, and we needed it decades ago.
Monbiot had this nailed 15 years ago. .... Still though the usual suspects on here will dismiss him as a hair-shirted hippy idealist.
He's not though is he? I've mostly seen him as an attention seeker who enjoys the argument more than being right (christ - he's not on here is he?). He comes from a fairly privileged background which got him a platform in the guardian, where he's now become a "personality" - and like most columnists he has to continue to be outspoken because nobody wants to read mundane stuff.
I find Monbiot's stuff very interesting and brings up lots of things I wasn't aware of
It’s the fact that those who want everyone to make changes to help solve the problem don’t seem to want to set an example themselves by leading that change.
It's not up to them to set an example themselves. Even if they lived in a log cabin in the middle of nowhere it wouldn't be enough for the naysayers. This needs collective, macroeconomic system change and action. What George Monbiot or Greta Thunberg, or any other individual does is irrelevant.
George Monbiot has done more than his fair share of flying round the planet…
Quite possibly the silliest thing you've ever said on here. Apart from the fact Monbiot has barely flown since he wrote Heat, it's a ridiculous straw man and you of all people should know that.
Monbiot, like all of us, has to take a look at himself, and understand the world doesn’t revolve around HIM.
You do realise don't you that GM is probably one of the most vocal anti-capitalist campaigners out there? He's on your side of whatever class war you think you're fighting yet you don't seem to realise it.
Most folk won’t have the luxury of voluntarily making positive changes to their lifestyles pretty soon.
So tell that to the people who mined the raw materials that went into making the electronic device you posted that comment from. See how far you get.
@bridges – if you can’t see that our intertwined global crises of mass extinction events, global heating and other devastating environmental crises – crises in critical systems we *all* rely on to live – are bigger in scope than votes for women in Blighty in 1903 and the emancipation of black people in a single country then I’m more happy to dismiss you as thick.
Se; I'd always thought that those two movements had had a huge, global impact, far beyond mere national borders. And have had a lasting legacy with International Women's Rights movements, and anti-racism movements globally. But what do I know eh; I'm just a bit fick... 😉
You’re not going to come round. Ever.
I might have, had you not been nasty to me. :'(
It’s clear you don’t understand the criticality of the issues in front of the human race.
No it's cos I is fick, innit?
Because, clearly, you are.
See? You even said so yourself! So it must be true.
The time for “winning hearts and minds” – is over. It’s time for action.
How you gonna do that then, big pants? By insulting and abusing people from behind a keyboard? 😀
Quite possibly the silliest thing you’ve ever said on here.
No I'm sure I've said sillier things.
You do realise don’t you that GM is probably one of the most vocal anti-capitalist campaigners out there? He’s on your side of whatever class war you think you’re fighting yet you don’t seem to realise it.
I'm not actually against George Monbiot for what he's written, I'm simply critical of his involvement with a group which thought it ok to impede ordinary people getting to work etc. That organisation has since rowed back on the use of such actions, so I don't really have much beef with him. Wind your neck in.
I’m simply critical of his involvement with a group which thought it ok to impede ordinary people getting to work etc.
And just for bloody climate change - ooo, what a bastard!
Done with your trolling.
Done with your trolling.
Hearts and minds, right there. Winning.
Have a lovely weekend, everyone.
A very topical interjection from Monbiot. Everyone should read it.
Hmm yes, Monbiot gets the climate crisis but he doesn't really get people. He makes it sound like the media is ignoring the crisis. But unfortunately the media has to produce what people want to watch. And you can't simply assail them with gloom constantly - they'll switch off, or switch over to something that is less gloomy.
The way to get people onside is to insert the narrative you want into things that people are already watching.
I think he ‘gets people’ just fine. The first half of that article does just that. He also gets power, and the destructive way it’s exercised by the rich to exploit and dispossess everyone else. You can’t fix this with clever PR. It requires mass political action on a scale not seen before. And yet here we are moaning about a handful of people temporarily blocking the roads.
It requires mass political action on a scale not seen before. And yet here we are moaning about a handful of people temporarily blocking the roads.
When you figure out how to fix everything, let us know ok?
I'd argue that clever PR is the only thing that's delivered the meagre progress we've made so far.
