MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
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Just put in some decking and will be running some armoured cable to it from a pre-existing lighting spur so we can get some nice lights on the deck. Would it be safe to run a patio heater off the same circuit?
No
Yeah Googling seems to suggest that too - looking like about 1100 watts maximum.
Right - fire pit it is.
You could always do it and have a "one off" fire.
I'm really not an enviro-mentalist but I don't get patio heaters. Like trying to heat the air outside an insulated house : seems mad.
^Unfortunately^ we aren't blessed with continental evening temperatures, but people still want to sit out and enjoy the summer eveningS rather than watch some shit tv programme. If a patio heater enables that then I can see every reason to have one.
Build a wee altar fire or get a duvet?
No, lighting circuits are 10A fused
Jumpers do the same without a pointless waste of energyIf a patio heater enables that then I can see every reason to have one.
OP use a spur from the ring main ...I am not an electrician
get one of the gas type ones. personally id do a fire pit but very wind dependant. forget about an electric one, will need its own 16amp radial
+1 for jumpers.
Patio heaters (especially has ones) are one of the least eco-friendly things you can have at your house.
Morally where do you stand if you've got solar panels and they spent the day feeding the grid?
Put in a proper supply and you could run an AC in the daytime too.
^Unfortunately^ we aren't blessed with continental evening temperatures, but people still want to sit out and enjoy the summer eveningS rather than watch some shit tv programme. If a patio heater enables that then I can see every reason to have one.
Well that's fair enough. But a jumper does a similar trick without the absurdity of using fossil fuel to heat the atmosphere - it has to be absurdly inefficient both financially and environmentally. They are fast becoming illegal in some countries and I can see why.
Assuming the lighting circuit is a ring of 1.5mm twin and earth then it should generally be able to cater for 15A max (i.e. 3400W) provided that RCD and any connectors on the circuit are suitably rated. Obviously, you also need to account for the load of everything else on the circuit too.
You could assume that but I've never seen it so it may be a dangerous assumption. Lighting circuits are almost always radial and 1mm cable is frequently used these days. It could also be derated depended on how its fitted.Assuming the lighting circuit is a ring of 1.5mm twin and earth
Assuming the lighting circuit is a ring of 1.5mm twin and earth then it should generally be able to cater for 15A max (i.e. 3400W) provided that RCD and any connectors on the circuit are suitably rated. Obviously, you also need to account for the load of everything else on the circuit too.
Them's that know a little are the most dangerous...
OP, ignore this buffoon
Morally where do you stand if you've got solar panels and they spent the day feeding the grid?
as well as having a patio heater at night you mean?
Well - Jimmy Saville did a lot of work for charity 😆
Morally where do you stand if you've got solar panels and they spent the day feeding the grid?
You stand at the point where you are trying to heat up the world when many people think that this is a bad thing.
Assuming the lighting circuit is a ring of 1.5mm twin and earth
As said before they're not rings, and normally 1.5 or 1.0mm.
Simplest solution would just be to run the hearer cable through the wall and stick a 13A plug on the end (assuming it's less than 3kW).
Them's that know a little are the most dangerous...OP, ignore this buffoon
OK Mr. know-a-lot what is the rating for a radial 1.5mm twin and earth above a plasterboard ceiling? And for 1mm?
BTW giving advice based on an assumption is different to asking the assumption to be made.
Whilst they are a little inefficient, patio heaters aren't anything like as bad for the environment as people make out. Running a gas one full blast creates approx 2.5kg co2 per hour. A normal car will produce the same driving 15 miles. You wouldn't slag someone off for driving 15 miles each way for dinner at a nice pub, and using a heater for 2 hours no worse than that..
Well I have to say I am (actually not) surprised at some of the posts. I ask a simple question and instead of getting helpful advice I get told off for (potentially) killing the planet.
OK Mr. know-a-lot what is the rating for a radial 1.5mm twin and earth above a plasterboard ceiling? And for 1mm?BTW giving advice based on an assumption is different to asking the assumption to be made
I'm an electrician - haven't got my regs book to hand and not doing domestic work it isn't stored in my memory. In any case, I wasn't questioning the load carrying capacity of the cable. If you are an electrician, you shouldn't be advising a member of the public based on any assumptions. Chances are the lighting circuit isn't on an RCD and most/all of the switches on the circuit will probably be rated at 10 amps for starters
Chances are the lighting circuit isn't on an RCD
It is - all electrics fully up to spec. as of about 2 years ago when we had some work done and all rings are covered on RCDs
Anyhoos, got our electrician coming round tomorrow to look at things and advise what we can do. The thing is, I *could* put in a power circuit as there is a spur for that approx the same distance away as the lighting circuit one but I like the idea of being able to switch the lighting on and off from inside the house (thinking on to Christmas when I'd like to put some lights on a nearby tree for the kiddies 🙂
I'm an electrician - haven't got my regs book to hand and not doing domestic work it isn't stored in my memory. In any case, I wasn't questioning the load carrying capacity of the cable.
What were you questioning then? I admit I was wrong to mention ring circuit when almost all lighting circuits are radial. However, this didn't make my advice dangerous as I had stated that assumption clearly, and I was conservatively stating the capacity for a radial connection anyway. Rating of a 1.5mm twin and earth is 20A which is derated to 15A when behind plasterboard. Calling me out as a buffoon when you don't have a grasp of fundamental electrical knowledge of cable ratings etc is hypocritical, to say the least
If you are an electrician, you shouldn't be advising a member of the public based on any assumptions.
Why? My assumptions were clearly stated.
Chances are the lighting circuit isn't on an RCD and most/all of the switches on the circuit will probably be rated at 10 amps for starters
What is the relevance of the rating of other switches on the lighting circuit?
Calling me out as a buffoon when you don't have a grasp of fundamental electrical knowledge of cable ratings etc is hypocritical, to say the least
Of course I have knowledge of correction factors, I just didn't have the figures to hand
What is the relevance of the rating of other switches on the lighting circuit?
You are talking about altering a lighting circuit to 15a, when the fittings are rated at 10a - of course it's relevant
It doesn't matter how much you argue, he shouldn't be fitting a 3kw patio heater to a lighting circuit, just as you wouldn't fit a socket to boil your kettle
I'm really not an enviro-mentalist but I don't get patio heaters. Like trying to heat the air outside an insulated house : seems mad.
Electrical patio heaters don't heat the air but are infra red.
(Well technically a tiny part heats some air - but it's negligible)
The effect is like the difference between standing in the sun and shade.
Air temperature isn't (significantly) different but you feel warmer.
Efficiency wise they are nowhere near as bad as some comments suggest. Environmentally its much better than burning something... and as soon as its switched off it cools very quickly so heat isn't wasted.
[i] just as you wouldn't fit a socket to boil your kettle [/i]
I'm not an electrician but this makes sense to me.
And what about the next person who has the property and sees a useful socket on the patio to run their mower or whatever off?
Electrical patio heaters don't heat the air but are infra red.
(Well technically a tiny part heats some air - but it's negligible)The effect is like the difference between standing in the sun and shade.
Air temperature isn't (significantly) different but you feel warmer.
Which is why I liked the idea of one.
Anyway, I have a rather large amount of wood* left over from ripping out an old fence that needs burning first so I probably will just end up getting a fire pit.
*I have recycled what I can for making stuff for the kids and gifted a load more via Freegle but I still have a load of rotten stuff that needs burning.
And what about the next person who has the property and sees a useful socket on the patio to run their mower or whatever off?
The RCD would quickly trip I would assume?
[i]large amount of wood* left over from ripping out an old fence[/i]
so stuffed full of poisonous preservatives then?
so stuffed full of poisonous preservatives then?
Yes, which is why I won't burn it in the log burning stove inside the house. Sitting outside near some burning 30 year old wood isn't going to have much of an effect on my health unless I sat right next to it in direct line of smouldering fug.
at least with the log burner you wouldn't be sat breathing the smoke in?
at least with the log burner you wouldn't be sat breathing the smoke in?
Neither would I when sat outside (see above).
I keep seeing this thread title and thinking "WTF is an infrared potato heater"...
[i]Neither would I when sat outside (see above). [/i]
But you edited that 😉
Does the SWA cable for the decking have to be taken off another circuit?
Could you not make things a bit easier for yourself and take it back to the consumer unit and put it on its own dedicated circuit?
You could then have it sized appropriately for the patio heater and any other consumers - lawnmower, strimmer, jetwash, laptop, projector etc.
Anyway, on reading some more about burning the fence panels I think maybe you are right and I need to take a few trips to the recycling centre 🙁
Could you not make things a bit easier for yourself and take it back to the consumer unit and put it on its own dedicated circuit?You could then have it sized appropriately for the patio heater and any other consumers - lawnmower, strimmer, jetwash, laptop, projector etc.
The consumer unit is right on the other side of the house so no. But we already have an outside 13amp circuit for strimmers etc. I just wanted to use the lighting circuit for this installation so I can switch it on and off from the existing inside wall switch.