Read a bit more. He was employed by a private French company all his life and has a pension from them. Reading the treaty it seems like that should be taxed in France, but the advice he got was that it should be taxed in Algeria (and this not taxed).
And neither occurred?
TBH you've to separate what's happened from what needs to happen. If they've no access to cash and you've the cash to give them make sure it's going into an account etc where it can be accessed and won't have issues, so probably better to split any monies you give into smaller amounts, and pay over weekly (for example).
His tax affairs could take years to sort out, especially if tax hasn't been paid to anyone for the past 5 years - this wouldn't be a quick 'fix' here in the UK, France or anywhere else. And has he actually got the cash saved to pay what he owes (whether in France or Algeria)?
Apparently his wife already borrowed money from her family when her business was failing (which is also where his life savings seemed to disappear), so they didn’t have that local backstop when this happened
So does she still have a business or is the business closed without any outstanding debts/tax ? As has been said above what income have they got if they have such extravagant out goings that they need £5k for 10 weeks?? How much was the pension worth monthly?
And has he actually got the cash saved to pay what he owes (whether in France or Algeria)?
Yep I am confused on this. So FIL is saying he has paid tax, but in Algeria? Well surly if that was incorrect he can get that back and pay to the French? Also can he show you the letters/emails from the French bank confirming that they were going to close/freeze his account? I get that in times of financial stress it can become easy to bury your head and hope it goes away. But he is now asking for support, and he needs to be squeaky clean with you.
IMO there is no scam going on from a 3rd party. I think they have sunk all their money in to a failing business, and probably now the Algerian tax man or debt collectors are catching up with them
Not a nice situation for OP and his wife, heart would definitely say one thing, head another.
Ask if hes met a really friendly Nigerian Prince, who has to move some money for an oil well, and needs a small deposit of £5k to open the escrow account before moving £1,556,552 into it. Which will get him a 10% commission?
His tax affairs could take years to sort out, especially if tax hasn’t been paid to anyone for the past 5 years – this wouldn’t be a quick ‘fix’ here in the UK, France or anywhere else. And has he actually got the cash saved to pay what he owes (whether in France or Algeria)?
We're not sure on the deeper details of what he has and hasn't paid, and what he may or may not owe, in part because neither of us know much about the tax situation for 2 countries we don't live in. It might all be a big misunderstanding or he might owe 2.5 years pension in back tax. We are satisfied that the tax situation has caused his cash shortage, and have been clear that whilst we can help in the short term, this is all the cash we've got spare, and we would like it back.
On the cost of living thing.. he has 2 adult step kids through the second marriage both of whom require some degree of care. In Algeria very little of this is provided by the state, so it can be expensive. I don't have any reason to believe they were living outside their means before all the income stopped, but if their means are now frozen it may take some time to unwind some of that spending. My wife and I don't have an issue with the amount/month
we would like it back.
I think it's very important that this is communicated to them.
I do however think it's wildly naive to expect it to happen short of it being mentioned in his will.
Also,
90% of what you've just updated us with is "... but because they're in Algeria..." Is them moving somewhere less awkward not an option?
I think it’s very important that this is communicated to them.
I do however think it’s wildly naive to expect it to happen short of it being mentioned in his will.
Fwiw MrsP lent some cash to her sis (who lived overseas) for various "business projects". The aims were discussed up front and the loans were all supported with formal signed agreements covering repayment, interest and ultimately them being settled via her mums estate if she goes before they're repaid. Life went downhill for sis, business projects failed, sis is now back in UK and broke so repayment is likely to come down to that final clause.
I loaned £7K to my BiL, against the advice of several on here, a few years back, that he agreed to pay back over 3 years. It was all agreed and laid out, as in fact I didn't loan him the money, I took a 36mo bank loan out and gave that to him and he was making equivalent repayments against it to me that I then paid back to the bank.
Guess how much how owes me?
Yep. Didn't pay back enough to cover the interest before the repayments became lower than the ones I was making to the bank, and then stopped completely. Against the £7K loan he owes me £7046 still. I meanwhile had to make the repayments, and then stopped charging interest on what he owes, so he's had it interest free for about 5 years now.
I'm told by MiL that she's put in her will that her golden boy's debt gets paid to me before any other divvying up - but my wife / his sister isn't so sure, and whenever MiL talks about will she mentions "the £5000" - so we'll see.
I now know I should have listened to the advice on here; on the plus side I *think* I'm happy I went that route (even if bank might have frowned on it if they knew the purpose) because his initial ask was to be guarantor against one of the legal loan shark companies. Christ knows how much he'd have cost me in that case.
Should've told her it was £10k.
I get trying to help someone out [I]if[/I] you can afford it (and agree with others that you should probably just consider the money gone, and a bonus if you ever see it again!!) - but take out a loan on someone's behalf? Absolutely no way! Hugely unfair to be even asked IMO. Also the fact they cannot secure a loan themselves is a massive red flag that they can't or won't pay it back!
Yep. I know now, but it was family and when the alternative is a secured legal loan shark loan that he needed guarantor for, and after that an illegal loan with who knows what T&C's, but involving baseball bats and knees potentially.... I kind of felt stuck. And now sanguine but still annoyed at being put in that position.
That's my issue with the OP. If Dad has a big tax bill, even one that he shouldn't have but is going to take time and possibly money in lawyer / tax advisors fees, etc., how sustainable is it - or is it another £5K in 10 week's time. On the other hand simply saying no because you're worried you might not get it back - what then; would he literally starve because he can't access any other funds?
I feel for you, but my advice is to be prepared to lube up 'cos I'm worried you're going to get shafted like I did.
this is all the cash we’ve got spare, and we would like it back.
You'll not see it back.
Go in with eyes open, at least.
It's either (bear in mind this is my uneducated opinion) a long fight with one or possibly two different nation's taxmen, or, a business debts and debt collection fight. Being on the receiving end of debt collection can be pretty spicy even in (say) a well regulated and policed country like the UK.
Getting either of the two sorted out in Algeria is probably going to involve them seeing assorted government/bank employees who will need to be given a large number of official forms that look surprisingly like banknotes.
this is all the cash we’ve got spare, and we would like it back.
I'd assumed up until now that you were comfortably off, to be entertaining this.
If not, I'd pay serious heed to the many concerned voices here.
And if you still wanna go ahead, make it £2k and tell him to sort his shit out pronto.
@theotherjonv. Don't be too hard on yourself, it's a position that not many know how they'll react. We get very few chances to test what sort of a person we are morally in life and I feel you passed.
"FIL - I'll pre book and pay for a flight to us, you can live with us till we sort out why you need the money/any issues".
Otherwise - la Shay / nothing.
I was going to write that it must be very weird having to bail parents out financially. Then I remembered that some 25-odd years ago, aged 27, I bailed my mum and dad out to exactly the same as the OP has been asked to do (I never got it back, but I lived rent-free at their house for a year or so). I never got to know the reason why they were in the situation they were in either.
I guess you just do what you have to do when it's family.
OP's in-law is Nigel Farrage AICMFP.
Yep. I know now, but it was family and when the alternative is a secured legal loan shark loan that he needed guarantor for, and after that an illegal loan with who knows what T&C’s, but involving baseball bats and knees potentially…. I kind of felt stuck. And now sanguine but still annoyed at being put in that position.
I suspect you're a better person than me to be sanguine about this. This strikes me as the sort of thing to make any sort of family gathering incredibly awkward.
@theotherjohnv don't feel too bad about it, I paid my wifes ex £2k just to bail him out of an overdraft he'd run up on a joint account & get her name off the account 😕 never gonna see that again.
this is all the cash we’ve got spare, and we would like it back.
Then you can't risk losing it. What if your boiler breaks in the middle of winter or some other issue?
OP’s in-law is Nigel Farrage AICMFP.
AICMFk.
I don't know why this is still being discussed . The decision has been made ,and I think you would have to be pretty hard hearted to refuse to bail out one of your parents , especially if they have helped you financially previously . The only exception would be if the parent was an absolute waster . As said previously the OP has passed the moral test and this is for me a heartwarming thread .
this is all the cash we’ve got spare, and we would like it back.
Then you can’t risk losing it.
This is pretty critical really.
There is a massive gulf between "we have £5k" and "we can afford to spare £5k." I don't need to reiterate what's been said by multiple people three pages over, do I? Whatever you choose to do, I would be absolutely astonished if you saw that money back whilst they're still drawing oxygen. And pleasantly surprised if you saw it afterwards.
Putting yourself in risk of debt in order to bail someone else out of debt - and again, at the risk of repeating myself, someone who in your own words you aren't particularly close to - doesn't solve a problem, it merely displaces a problem from them to you. It's like that shiny Izal toilet paper they had in the 70s, it doesn't absorb, it just redistributes and it's expensive.
If you are going to throw money at the problem, spend it on a solicitor.
I don’t know why this is still being discussed . The decision has been made ,and I think you would have to be pretty hard hearted to refuse to bail out one of your parents
Conversely,
I don’t know why this is still being discussed. I think you would have to be completely insane to agree to bail out one of your partner's semi-estranged parents with money you just about have after he's been evading tax for years and his gold-digging partner has emptied his bank account to a point where the bank blocked the account.
It's laudable, it really is. But it's utterly, utterly bonkers.
I think we all now know the chances of borrowing 20 quid off Cougar is pretty remote.
I'm with Cougar. The whole story does not add up to me from what we have been told and there is zero chance of every seeing that money again.
More fishy than Billingsgate market
there is zero chance of every seeing that money again.
[s] I don't know about that, there's every chance the "Algerian taxman" who's blocked FIL's account by scamming him to the point that even the bank felt bad enough to do something about it is based on London, so it'll probably past the op at some point. [/s]
That's not fair, no one ever got scammed by someone pretending to be the tax man...
