quacks like a scam and swims like a scam, probably a duck (or something)
Easy enough to resolve though.
Phone call, not an email:
"Yes, of course we can help you, but obviously its a lot of money and we would like to know more about the situation, for your protection, as much as for the protection of our money."
And, even if it is legit. Can you afford to lose it, if he decides to just not pay you back
Sounds like the OP isn't listening to any advice here and will do it anyway? Not sure what the point of the thread was then.
To ask for advice as to what questions to ask them.
This 100% feels like a scam, from the request, the quick move to sending bank details, to the intended recipient of the actual funds. This won't end with £5k.... Does Op actually know that they are conversing with the FIL?
I would start by refusing the request and see what happens from there. or you could suggest something bonkers like offering to go over with the money to see how insistent they are for electronic transfer.
Sounds like the OP isn’t listening to any advice here and will do it anyway? Not sure what the point of the thread was then.
Same as every "what new bike/tyres/dog/flavour or crisps" thread which invariably ends with the op buying something no one has recommended and that wasn't on their shortlist for comment (and that doesn't in anyway match their original brief but was heavily reduced)
... or they've already bought it before starting a thread going "is this any good?"
Bit late now if it isn't, innit.
..or they have more info than we do. It sounds as though this isn't completely out of the blue like most scams and what they are trying to do, as Cougar said above, is work out what questions to ask to work out what to do next. They have also said that they are prepared to lose the cash if necessary, but are trying to work out if is it a scam, or they are in trouble, or what is actually going on. The fact that is looks dodgy was already clear from the start
Sounds like the OP isn’t listening to any advice here and will do it anyway? Not sure what the point of the thread was then.
Eh? Here's what the OP said earlier:
We’re talking to him today, but I started this thread to figure out some probing questions to ask during the conversation (it’s been useful for that). We wouldn’t pay anything without that, so I’m comfortable it’s not us being defrauded, I’m just concerned he is
Let's wait and see how the conversation goes.
Sounds like the OP isn’t listening to any advice here and will do it anyway?
What on earth has the OP posted to give you that idea?
The OP has posted here to get advice on what questions to ask his fil. So far the advice has been good.
Same as every “what new bike/tyres/dog/flavour or crisps” thread which invariably ends with the op buying something no one has recommended and that wasn’t on their shortlist for comment (and that doesn’t in anyway match their original brief but was heavily reduced)
Makes you wonder how rubbish the advice given is. 😀
They have also said that they are prepared to lose the cash if necessary
I mean, that being the case, I'll have it. I could pay my mate back and pocket the change, job jobbed.
You’re giving – let’s stop labouring under this ‘lending’ notion – someone five grand who you aren’t particularly close with?
100% don't lend what you can't give
So bit of an update. Spoke to him earlier. It seems that since arriving in Algeria (freshly retired), he hasn't paid any tax. He was given advice from an accountant that this was correct. Whether it is or not is still unclear, but 5 years on Algeria have got France to freeze his bank account. We don't have any evidence of this, but he's never lied before and was open with all the details. Apparently everything got frozen a couple of months back and they've been running through current accounts/selling jewelery since then.
His estimate is that 5k will last them 10 weeks. You can live cheaper in algeria, but when you have car leases/renting a flat for you + kids/medical support for the kids etc it can be hard to reduce outgoings in a hurry. We've told him that we don't have any more cash after the 5k is gone. We asked (as suggested here) what happens when the money is gone, he doesn't have a plan other than hoping the account is re unlocked, but obviously that will be a slow burn
Apparently his wife already borrowed money from her family when her business was failing (which is also where his life savings seemed to disappear), so they didn't have that local backstop when this happened.
We dug into details of their spending patterns and are reasonably convinced they're cutting things as much as they can. We are also convinced his wife isn't coercing him into anything at this point
I'm not 100% sure he's telling the truth, but tbh my wife is sending money that shes happy to give him (a lot of it was given to her by him 15 years ago whilst she was at uni, so giving it back isn't the ene of the world).
Appreciate all the help so far. Sorry for sporadic answers, we're on hols and wifi is flakey
It seems like a promising update, but if Algeria have requested that his account is frozen is there a big tax bill incoming?
I wish all the best in sorting this out, but I think you will be unable to do anything other than pointlessly prolong the inevitable.
Things kinda jump out:
Apparently his wife already borrowed money from her family when her business was failing (which is also where his life savings seemed to disappear),
Whole story much?
Algeria have got France to freeze his bank account
Mmm. Because tax not paid on pension income that isn't taxable?
or because business that failed and liabilities?
hoping the account is re unlocked
I detect an absence of plan.
We are also convinced his wife isn’t coercing him into anything at this point
"at this point" seems to be doing the heavy lifting
ou can live cheaper in algeria, but when you have car leases/renting a flat for you + kids/medical support for the kids etc it can be hard to reduce outgoings in a hurry.
The business failed, and only now is the point of thinking about reducing outgoings?
Whether you like it or not, it sounds very much like his wife has hosed his life savings and has got them both on the hook for something in Algeria. Perhaps not scam, but you know what, it might as well be.
All the best. Reading the start and end of thread, I think you'd just be tipping money into a black hole though.
. It seems that since arriving in Algeria (freshly retired), he hasn’t paid any tax. He was given advice from an accountant that this was correct. Whether it is or not is still unclear, but 5 years on Algeria have got France to freeze his bank account.
It really sounds like he needs a sensible Algerian lawyer at this point. Have they "frozen" the account because they intend to seize the contents based on a court order or something?
OP.... You can give me 5k..... I'll get the suspension serviced on two bikes, but some drugs and provide sexual gratification to you personally.
Deal?
Algeria would have to seek a court order in France to do that, how much tax owing are we talking about?
Sounds like he needs French and Algerian legal advice.
Well if your wife wants to give him £5k cos she feels he's owed it, and you can jointly afford it, crack on. Don't kid yourself it's some sort of loan.
We don’t have any evidence of this, but
"Send us the paperwork and we'll pay it off for you."
His estimate is that 5k will last them 10 weeks.
Wait, hang on. Is this £5k to pay off his tax fraud arrears, or to pay for food for the next ten weeks? That's two entirely different scenarios.
Algeria have got France to freeze his bank account
This to my mind is the nub of the matter. He's in one foreign country with a bank account in another foreign country, the pair of them have variously ****ed their finances through whatever legitimate or illegitimate means we care to read between the lines into this story, and his long-term game plan going forwards is to hit up semi-estranged relatives for several thousand pounds and hope it all sorts itself out? Send him thoughts and prayers?
Based, again, solely on what you've posted here, I'd suggest that if you've got five grand burning a hole in your pocket and you want to help him, I'd be buying a one-way ticket back to Blighty, setting up the spare room and talking with non-loony banks.
This is either a) as fishy as a fire sale in Grimsby or b) he's got himself properly in the shit and has zero appetite to help himself. That 5k won't last ten weeks, I'd be amazed if it lasted ten days. And (again) then what?
[color=red]Why is that account frozen?[/color] He has money but can't access it, the solution is unlikely to be "more money."
I'd want to be verifying this directly with his bank tbh.
Seems like a lot of folk passing judgement over a situation they don't actually know much about. My (happily so far limited) experience of arguing with the tax man, and especially tax men in another country, is that you are guilty until they can be convinced to find you innocent. Up until that point they have massive powers to utterly **** up your ife and there's nothing you can do about it, even if you are in the right. In that situation -
He has money but can’t access it, the solution is unlikely to be “more money.”
is not exactly the problem. He has money he can't access, and needs money he CAN access in order to buy food.
I would be paying for a flight to him to get to his French bank, getting one for myself and meeting him there then seeing what is actually going on. If he is being scammed you have him safely away from the scammers, if he's genuinely in trouble then you're in the best place to sort it out. If he doesn't turn up then you're only down the cost of a few flights and accommodation.
Either way you know where you stand.
I would be paying for a flight to him to get to his French bank
Sure, but apparently it's a tax thing, so the bank will do one of their trademark Gallic shrugs and you'll have wasted a plane ticket.
the claim is that his french bank account has been locked as he lives abroad
Whilst French banks are known for closing expats' bank accounts for no reason, locking them is always for a reason, usually insufficient funds or illegal activity.
Can he set up an online bank to have his pension paid into in the meantime, like revolute, or wise or something of that nature?
A bank might well lock your account simply for noticing that you live abroad.
We certainly did our best to keep it quiet while we were living abroad, and used my parents' address throughout that time. Banks aren't necessarily licensed to operate worldwide, and could be subject to large penalties if they act outside the legal framework of the new country (not remitting appropriate taxes, not paying regulatory fees, giving advice that they aren't licensed to do).
I'm sure lots of people fly under the radar as we did. But if you were relying on the old account for all use in the new country (which we were not) then it might easily be spotted and might get difficult very quickly.
As it happens I’m an Algerian and French tax expert. If you transfer £5k into my Cayman Island account I’ll sort this whole mess out for your father. No sexual gratification received or offered, terms and conditions apply. Your investment may not be safe. Etc. etc.
Sure, but apparently it’s a tax thing, so the bank will do one of their trademark Gallic shrugs and you’ll have wasted a plane ticket.
That is a possibility but you will also know the full picture.
Not buying it, sorry.
If a tax man from one country contacts the bank in another sovereign state and asked them to freeze a bank account as it might contain a lump sum they might want to recover i doubt that would happen.
Unless it was a spectacular lump of cash. Or your fil has somehow fooled the bank into thinking hes not actually in Algeria, despite every transaction coming from there.
If 5000 is only going to last 10 weeks my guess is run out of cash due to living beyond means by trying to support her extended family, her business losses means its all on him.
I'm with singletrackmind - to me the story does not add up at all
Had a quick look at the France - Algeria double tax treaty. Pensions are taxable in the country where you're resident, not the one where they are paid.
The exception is if it's a pension for government service. In which case the opposite is true.
Who did your FIL work for OP?
My French pension is paid brut and I pay tax on it in whichever country I declare my tax - France in my case.
His pension should be (unless there’s some way he’s sold it, we’ll find out tomorrow)
You can't sell a French state pension. People often have a complementary pension and I don't see how you could seel that either. It would have to be some kind of investment based pension to be able to sell and those are rare in France.
The fontion publique pensions that would be taxed in France are quite rare. Madame is a teacher but her pension will be under the normal penson system.
Seems like a lot of folk passing judgement over a situation they don’t actually know much about.
True. But, welcome to the Internet, the OP asked for advice and we're doing what we can with what they tell us.
is not exactly the problem. He has money he can’t access, and needs money he CAN access in order to buy food.
And now you've just done exactly the same.
It's exactly the problem. Of course it is. If - IF - he has money he can't access, then he needs to access it. You don't just pour money into a bucket which has a hole in the bottom, you fix it dear Liza.
(And who's he feeding for five grand, Liechtenstein?)
I’d want to be verifying this directly with his bank tbh.
The bank isn't going to tell OP anything.
Seems like a lot of folk passing judgement over a situation they don’t actually know much about.
Agreed - can everyone calm their tits and stop with the insinuations?
Seems unlikely that France would freeze the account at the request of the Algerian courts or tax authorities without there being any paperwork. I would encourage OP to try to get copies of that and/or to encourage the FIL to get a proper Algerian lawyer.
get FIL to have his pension paid into a different account...
Don't pay him £5k, find and pay for him some legal advice.
I've been having a look at the French Web with the obvious key words and Google translate on this may help you
https://selectra.info/finance/guides/compte-bancaire/bloque
What I'm failing to work out is how the Algerian authorities could get a French account frozen. They would need the complicity of the french fisc and/or justice system. Your FIL would have had plenty of warning with details of why his account was going to be blocked.
There's something you are not being told OP.
I've dug up the French/Algerian tax treaty here
It seems like he could be resident in either country, which may be the root of the issue, as he lives in Algeria (so they think it's Algerian), but has the centre of his monetary affairs (all his cash/pension) in France.
In France it seems like an account can be blocked because of unpaid tax, via an satd https://www.french-property.com/guides/france/finance-taxation/banking/running-your-account/account-seizure
And
https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F31716
, but that should leave enough in it for day to day spending, and only be blocked for 15 days
I've pushed my wife on this and her view is that if he needs the money so badly he's lying about the cause, then he can have it. Accusing your own parent of lying is obviously very difficult. It's her cash at the end of the day, so it's her choice
Read a bit more. He was employed by a private French company all his life and has a pension from them. Reading the treaty it seems like that should be taxed in France, but the advice he got was that it should be taxed in Algeria (and this not taxed).
If his account was seized due to this he would have €600 left which won't last very long, and any future payments into that account could I guess also be seized
"wzzzzFree Member
get FIL to have his pension paid into a different account…"
The answer surely. Advise FIL to switch payment to different/new account.
Offer £1000 gift which will cover essentials like food etc for FIL meantime. Even if switching accounts meant visiting France that only takes a day or two
If getting access to pension won't solve it the £5k won't either. £5k is just either being scammed or being thrown in a black hole of debt.
Had a quick look at the France – Algeria double tax treaty. Pensions are taxable in the country where you’re resident, not the one where they are paid.
I read it the other way round.
any pensions and other similar remuneration paid to a resident of a Contracting State in consideration of past employment shall be taxable only in that State.
Sounds like a French pension would be taxable in France, no?
The OP originally said "locked as he lived abroad".
Is this not now valid? As I previously posted, banks may do this without any further provocation.
He may or may not have a tax bill to pay but it seems a bit unlikely that there's some international investigation going on into his tax affairs, unless there is any basis for it other than some speculative posts on here.
‘We haven’t got the money Dad, but I might be able to get from a friend but they want all the details…’
