WTF?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8586344.stm.
So trained professionals who are supposed to be trusted by the people they provide a service to can now provide poor service based on their beliefs in ancient superstition? This is why religion has no place in modern society.
Oh dear, a sad day for pharmacy 🙁
They should not be forced to go against their beliefs. However I think that if they want to offer a service according to some ancient work of fiction then they should have to walk around wearing a sandwich board with "I believe in fairies" written on both sides.
thats bullshit that is.
[i]can now[/i]
Can [u]still[/u], and yet we'd never noticed before that they could.
I'm really, really not sure I care. Roughly how many transactions per million are affected by a pharmacist's convictions? I bet it's almost exactly 3.2.
If they're state employees maybe I care, it'd be pretty boring in an NHS hospital. I don't really understand how pharmacists work, but I've got a suspicion that demanding that an independent chemist sells you whatever you want just because it exists is like insisting that Waterstones sells you Anal Rampage magazine.
as long as they have to say 'because of my personal beliefs i can't sell you blah but you can buy blah from joe bloggs pharmacy which is just down the road' then i don't really see a problem with it. It's wrong to discriminate against peoples beliefs even if they are complete bobbins.
Fair enough really, imo, as long as there's a practical alternative source. No retailer should be forced to vend a product they don't want to. And I'm no supporter of religion.
Political correctness gone mad. You go into the profession surely knowing that you STOCK THOSE ITEMS.
What next? Paramedic refusing go into a pig shed as its against his beliefs? 😉
Go on then
[url]
This bodes well for the Jehovah’s Witnesses Transfusion Service 😉
It's wrong to discriminate against peoples beliefs even if they are complete bobbins.
They are employed to provide a specialist service, where customers require unbiased advice. Moreover, it's worse that their professional governing body is allowing this, as opposed to individuals refusing off their own bat. There is enough stigma about family planning in this country as it is.
To follow your line of thought to completion, does this mean that it would also be discriminatory for me to be refused a job as a Catholic Priest, simply because I don't believe in God? I'm pretty sure I could easily spout condescending rambles based on sometimes dubious morals for an hour or so every Sunday...
...religion has no place in modern society.
What does that mean? I won't invoke Godwin's law this early....
Anyway, I can't see that anyone should be able to make a privately held retailer sell something however it does seem odd that if the retailer has something to sell then an employee can refuse to sell it even when there's no other employee present. I suggest that the employer should be able to make it a condition of employment that an employee is happy to sell anything the retailer stocks.
Off topic I know, but have you noticed that Anal Rampage magazine is a lot thinner than it used to be?
There's a lot less adverts than can be found in What Dildo or Buttplug Today though.
Political correctness gone mad. You go into the profession surely knowing that you STOCK THOSE ITEMS.What next? Paramedic refusing go into a pig shed as its against his beliefs?
What's political correctness got to do with it? Funnily, political correctness doesn't normally take Christian beliefs into account. And, no you don't need to STOCK THOSE ITEMS. Like any retailer, you stock what you want.
Hora, the paramedic analogy is ludicrous. How about '[i]What next. Corner store refusing to sell cigarettes, as he thinks they're dangerous[/i]?
What does that mean?
Exactly that. Religion has no place in modern society. The precursor to Godwin's law has nothing to do with it, he wanted extermination of a race (or three). A bit similar to some extremist views by hard stance religious leaders actually....
Tea&Medals
+ 1
[i]. How about 'What next. Corner store refusing to sell cigarettes, as he thinks they're dangerous?[/i]
I think a more accurate analogy would be a tobacconist refusing to sell cigarettes, as he thinks they're dangerous 😉
...religion has no place in modern society.
Evidence?
That looks like a belief-based assertion to me. Typical of the society we live in.
How about someone in WH Smiths refusing to sell you 'Zoo', 'Nuts', or FHM et al?
Evidence?
Quite. You show me some credible evidence that religion has a truly factual grounding.
Then I'll happily demonstrate why the main thing it's lauded for - morals - can happily exist without any religious views whatsoever.
Religion relies on 'trust me on this mate' with no proof.
Funny how all the miracles happened many many many years ago isnt it?
Man really is a funny animal.
Funnily enough, I feel myself coming down on the side of the (tiny number of, and possibly only hypothetical) observant Catholic pharmacists here.
IF they're in private business (i.e. not a pharmacist in a hospital etc) and they're not discriminating against a type of customer on an unethical basis, shouldn't they be allowed to decide what they will and won't sell on the basis of their loopy beliefs?
If a Muslim butcher doesn't want to sell pork because it goes against his religious beliefs, should he be forced to?
If Asda doesn't want to sell the explicit version of Lily Allen's CD because it goes against their "family values", should they be forced to?
If a mid-40s, male pattern balding, Audi-driving, MTBing architect 😉 doesn't want to design a new church for the Catholic Church because it goes against his athiest beliefs, should he be forced to?
Or is there something essentially [i]different [/i]about pharmacy as a profession than butchery, architecture and greengrocery? I dunno.
Funny how all the miracles happened many many many years ago isnt it?
1961 is not all that long ago... [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_MacKillop ]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_MacKillop[/url]
Or is there something essentially different about pharmacy as a profession than butchery, architecture and greengrocery?
Yes, there is. A Pharmacist's job is to provide unbiased advice. A better comparison with an architect would be to dangerously design a church based on his views...
[i]Religion relies on 'trust me on this mate' with no proof. [/i]
I've not got the time or the inclination, but I am going to suggest having a read of Terry Eagleton's book "Reason, Fairht and Revolution". Eagleton is an atheist, but his ideas about what christian theology is actually about are rather interesting. Anyone wishing to get beyond hora's level of understanding of the issue would do well to read it. It's quite short and the writing is fairly large, certainly in the hardback edition. 🙂
Linky:
[url= http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61PykO%2Bi%2BpL._SS500_.jp g" target="_blank">
The "conscience clause" itself doesn't mention religion it only mentions conscience. People are allowed to make their own decisions whether they are religious or not. (You don't even need Dawkins to tell you what to believe.)
Emergency Hormonal Contraception is sold by pharmacists to prevent pregnancy after unprotected sex but a similar drug could be used to force abortion of a fetus.
I've pinched this next bit from another forum from a similar thread.
"Abort a fetus a week or so before it's due to be born anyway - murder probably.
Abort a fetus at a time when it probably wouldn't be able to live - murder perhaps.
Abort a fetus well before it could possibly survive - killing something human.
Abort an emplanted embrio - disruption of the creation of a human being.
Prevent the emplantation of an embrio - prevent the creation of a (already defined) new human being.
Prevent sperm and egg from fusing (e.g. condom, condemned by the Catholic church remember) - prevent the creation of a unique human being.
Prevent donors of egg and sperm from enabling them to fuse (e.g. two people on opposite sides of the world are not allowed to meet) - prevent circumstances in which a human embrio could be created.
Where do you draw the line?"
At some point you have to make a decision based on your own conscience.
As evidenced by your existence hora.Man really is a funny animal.
Like BD, I'm not sure I give a shit really. It would be one thing if pharmacies were the [i]only[/i] place to buy birth control but every supermarket and two bit cornershop has them these days. Getting into a big crazy froth about religionists just makes them dig their heels in further.
does this mean i can stop cutting drunks out of cars or just leave druggies houses to burn as i dont believe what they do is right?
Is it the pharmacist here or the member of staff that's the issue?
This sounds like it's a result of that woman who wouldn't sell a customer some birth control pills because of her religious beliefs. Now as far as I'm concerned, if a member of staff can't do part of their job for whatever reason, then they're not suitable for the role, there's the door. These things aren't launched on these people unexpectedly, they know there is going to be a conflict of beliefs at some point.
If you went for a job claiming that you could fly a fighter jet and then later on it turned out you couldn't, you'd get sacked.
If however it's for the entire pharmacist then fine, they can sell or not sell what they want, people should vote with their feet and not go there.
does this mean i can stop cutting drunks out of cars or just leave druggies houses to burn as i dont believe what they do is right?
Even more accurate - what if you stopped cutting Jews out of cars because you were a Muslim and objected to their crimes in Palestine?
A Pharmacist's job is to provide unbiased advice.
No such thing.
Wasn't long ago there was a huge fuss over some pharmacists supplying/prescribing the pill, morning after pill and condoms to underage kids. That looks pretty biased to me.
in the normal circumstance failure to supply the pill or condoms could hardly be construed as 'dangerous'.
does this mean i can stop cutting drunks out of cars or just leave druggies houses to burn as i dont believe what they do is right?
Post of the year.
[i]. Eagleton is an atheist, but his ideas about what christian theology[/i]
I just had a look on amazon, and the first review says Eagleton is an amazing combination of Catholic believer and Marxis.
Now I'm slightly confused.
[i]Post of the year.[/i]
No way. That would definitely be one of yours hora. 😀
Like BD, I'm not sure I give a shit really. It would be one thing if pharmacies were the only place to buy birth control but every supermarket and two bit cornershop has them these days. Getting into a big crazy froth about religionists just makes them dig their heels in further.
Not quite, I doubt you can get morning-after pills from Tescos.
If however it's for the entire pharmacist then fine, they can sell or not sell what they want, people should vote with their feet and not go there.
Not quite. If a very nervous 15 year old girl goes in, and gets told emergency contraception is wrong because of the Pharmacist's religious beliefs, which are supported by their professional governing body, what happens then. Perhaps she has an abortion 2 months down the line when she finally tells her parents, or maybe she becomes a mum at 15. Yes, that's much better for her.
Ian - he states that he is an atheist and he is certainly a marxist. He's a good read. 🙂
i was going to say similar zokes but didnt want a real flaming. See what i did there with the flame thing 🙂
If however it's for the entire pharmacist then fine, they can sell or not sell what they want, people should vote with their feet and not go there.
Voting with your feet is fine if you have another chemist's near, if you live out in the country that may not be the case.
If however it's for the entire pharmacist then fine, they can sell or not sell what they want, people should vote with their feet and not go there.
Voting with your feet is fine if you have another chemist's near, if you live out in the country that may not be the case.
You could always try your local hospital......
BD- thanks, will have a read.
Pharmacy - there is always another one down the road.
[i]Ian - he states that he is an atheist and he is certainly a marxist. He's a good read[/i]
Cool, I'll give it a whirl. I found "The islamist" which I think was one of your previous recommendations quite good.
as every sperm is sacred
I should be up infront of the Hague now on multiple Genocide charges 8)
now that could be post of the year 🙂
Simple solution is to let the pharmacists pick and choose what they want to supply, but make it a condition of the right to fill NHS prescriptions that they supply the whole gamut or lose the NHS contract. If they don't want to do NHS work they can carry on with a selective service privately.
😆
Brilliant Hora!
Marxism - religion for atheists.
I thought it was Hi-Fi 😉
Zokes is spot on with his post...these guys must be non-judgemental, contraception is an arkward subject for teenagers both preventative and emergency..sure that a teenage lass who's bricking it about being pregnant needs some religious do-gooder tutting and huffing about supplying the morning after pill....THE PATIENTS NEEDS ARE PARAMOUNT!...keep your narrow minded views to your private life!
if i was confronted by such a catholic chemist denying me a service i would ask if that was why catholic priests preferred pre-pubescent sex partners as no contraception is required to prevent pregnancy
You could always try your local hospital......
Who have a pharmacy which will only fill prescriptions that were written in the hospital - you can't get any non-prescription drugs or get your doctor's prescriptions filled there. At least that's true for ours.
Joe
Or is there something essentially different about pharmacy as a profession than butchery, architecture and greengrocery?
Yes the bit about them providing medical assistance which is pretty critical to most people. Is it not inconceivable the person would leave the pharmacist ashamed and not go to another one?
does this mean I can stop cutting drunks out of cars or just leave druggies houses to burn as I don’t believe what they do is right?
Superb analogy - many of us do jobs where we have to be impartial as it is other peoples lives we are dealing with. I give IAG[Information Advice and Guidance] some of these people want to study theology or go to Islamic schools should I explain how to do this say I won’t help and tell them why they are wrong?
Interestingly in Catholic [ and most Muslims ]schools we are prevented from discussing anything to do with sexual health apart from abstinence and not doing it out of wedlock. If a young person asks us about condoms , morning after general contraception etc we HAVE to repeat some blurb about the school policy on no sex out of marriage and tell them we cannot advice them on this issue which makes many of pretty annoyed. I do not think we should give religious people special rights because they have a belief in a non proven entity.
It's such a shame that a free society needs such a lot of controlling.
Do you really believe that all catholics follow this (apparently) hard line? And Kimbers, it's a widely known fact that all catholics support paedophilia. Jesus wept, this is, in my opinion, a thread based on a bit of a non-story, which has quickly descended into an anti religion fest. Many of you are as fervent in your quest to prove the (non) existence of God as those you claim to be idiots for believing the opposite. At the end of the day, what does it really matter to you personally? How deeply are you affected by this? And hora, every time you bang one out, God kills a puppy. Just thought you should know 😉
Tis true though. I would have been thrown out of the army..
'Private hora what ARE you doing? STOP IT NOW' 😆
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IanMunro - MemberI thought it was Hi-Fi
How bizarre.
I'm currently waiting for God to make my cock fall off, being a catholic who uses condoms as contraception in my marital realtions with my wife.
Yeah, likes thats going to happen.
Shit, where's it gone??!!??
Jesus wept, this is, in my opinion, a thread based on a bit of a non-story,
Would it be a non-story if you were a very nervous 16 year old, whose older boyfriend succeeded in cajoling her into unprotected sex the previous night, and when she came to the pharmacist for discrete advice, was told: "I'm sorry, my religion tells me that extramarital sex is morally inappropriate, and I'm not going to help you because of my religious beliefs"
That'll certainly help the situation. Surely the whole reason governing bodies exist is to ensure patient care, not the exact opposite?
missingfrontallobe if he was working on a triage-method I think he'd be looking into Pedophile Priests first. You know, the sameones that tell you what to do with YOUR personal life.
"Shit, where's it gone??!!??" Told you so!
zokes - I called it 'a bit of' a non story. By this I meant that the problem with 'hard line' catholic pharmacists may or may not exist, it's just very unlikely to be a widespread problem.
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Yeah. I don't believe in getting my boots dirty.What next? Paramedic refusing go into a pig shed as its against his beliefs?
...or receive a Nobel prize for services to humanity 😉I should be up in front of the Hague now on multiple Genocide charges
I remember as a kid Woody Allen said you have a finite supply and it'll come out as dust. I spent the next few years furiously looking into this thinking (and always worrying straight after)
zokes - I called it 'a bit of' a non story. By this I meant that the problem with 'hard line' catholic pharmacists may or may not exist, it's just very unlikely to be a widespread problem.
It appears to be a problem with some muslim pharmacists in Bolton. The local rag gets hold of a story every now and then...
Widespread problem or not, it should exist at all. There is no need whatsoever. Religion should not interfere with patient health, end of.
I generally agree zokes - as a registered nurse, I have never allowed my own beliefs to compromise patient care. I was merely attempting to point out that (a) this isnt really a 'new' story, and (b) is highly unlikely to become a widespread practise.
*comment deleted due to the fact that i can't be ersed arguing with this cocked up world anymore, whats next, being refused on an aeroplane because the pilots amish*
I'm going to have to stop reading the news, it makes my head hurt.
So it's ok for a pharmacist to use their beleifs inappropiately but you're not allowed to refuse two men a room in your own B and B?
*scratches head*
There are loads of these sort of opt outs and that is only right. You have the right not to perform abortions if you don't want to - even as a theatre nurse you can leave the operating theatre for example. You do not have the right to tell someone it is wrong to have an abortion.
I had some devout muslim staff working for me in a nursing home - they did not want to serve alcohol to the residents. There is no way I could or should make them serve alcohol
Hora woody allen also said that dont know masturbation as at least it is sex with someone you love
Ziggy the first is not discrimination the second is. The pharmacist is not refusing to sell something because of what the [i] person [/i] is but because of what the product is
[chuckles at ziggy] 🙂
Analytically, the two situations are different. The pharmacist would refuse [i]anybody[/i] the morning after pill, the B&B owner only refuses bed and breakfast to homosexuals.
[url= http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/condom-ads ]http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/condom-ads[/url]
SPOOKY!
My favourite woody quote:
Love is the answer - but while you're waiting for the answer, sex raises some pretty interesting questions
Ziggy the first is not discrimination the second is. The pharmacist is not refusing to sell something because of what the person is but because of what the product is
However, they are using their mis-judged morals to the possible detriment of the patient - possibly quite worse than discrimination in the case I laid out above.
I'm sorry TS, but your post goes against my religion, so I'm going to have to report it...
Actually, you can (get the MAP from Tesco)