[Closed] Iain M Banks : Surface Detail

Definitely, stick with it.
Wasn't that keen on the Quarry though.

I was going to post some disparaging comments about H_T_S, for suggesting a Banks (sci-fi) book wasn't very good... But actually remember struggling with that one myself @ the start, as per Sprootlet IMO it gets better, as the story threads join & interweave.

Just finished reading it. Not read any of the "Culture" novels before so it was a heavy going to start with but really enjoyed it. Will be trying another of the earlier books on the back of it.

Definitely stick with it. It has 2 or 3 absolute classic banks 'human spirit' moments that make it very worthwhile reading. Enjoy.

I think ive only ever enjoyed one Bsnks book - I try to avoid them but being a sifi fan I get given them regularly.

Just finishing the Wool, Shift, Dust trilogy by Hugh Howey - picked up Wool in the supermarket last year and ive loved them.

I'm not all that keen on Surface Detail - it's okay, and ties neatly into the Culture universe, but it's a bit bleak for me. His two non-Culture SF books, Feersum Edjinn and Against A Dark Background, are both outstanding.

I enjoyed it, I started on his Iain M books as I am running out of Iain Banks books to read. Took a while to get to grips with them but once you get a handle on The Culture it's a lot better. Ken Macleod is also good.(Banks' s pal)

I can't think of a bad one. Some better than others obviously but enjoyed them all. Surface detail certainly gives a good indication of what hell could be like.

Yes it gets better. Matter is one that didn't click with me though.

I read it last year, I struggled through to the end but it's not really got me looking to read any more Banks books.

I enjoyed it, I started on his Iain M books as I am running out of Iain Banks books to read. Took a while to get to grips with them but once you get a handle on The Culture it's a lot better. Ken Macleod is also good.(Banks' s pal)

Interesting. I'm slightly Iain M Banks curious as I've really enjoyed most Iain Banks I've read so far (about 30 pages to go on Stonemouth this evening) but never been in the slightest bit interested in Sci-fi in the past - a 10 page dip into a discworld novel put me off the whole genre for life.

Surface Detail isn't one of my favourites. Much preferred The Hydrogen Sonata.

never been in the slightest bit interested in Sci-fi in the past - a 10 page dip into a discworld novel put me off the whole genre for life.

but discworld is not sci-fi 😕

Feersum Endjinn was the first Banks scifi I read. Maybe a good introduction as it's not part of the culture series but has some of the same themes.

but discworld is not sci-fi

- isn't it? What's it called then - fantasy? Well, every days a school day (although I note wiki says at least one of the series won a sci-fi award).

It's one of the more complex IMB Culture books - but IMO is quite derivative of Dorris Lessing's 'Re: Colonised Planet 5, Shikasta'.

Do you mean..

The Prometheus Award
Libertarian science fiction is a sub-genre of science fiction that focuses on the politics and social order implied by libertarian philosophies with an emphasis on individualism and a limited state—and in some cases, no state whatsoever.

So not really Sci-fi award then really.. as Discworld ain't sci-fi, they're (comic) fantasy novels, though his standalone novels "Strata" and "The dark side of the Sun" which are not 'discworld' are (comic sci-fi)

I was looking at the BSFA Awards prize for Pyramids in 1989 - probably about the time I gave it a go.

But I'm all up for being corrected as it potentially opens up a whole bunch of potential reading I'd (stupidly) disregarded.

It was the 'comic' element of Pratchett that most put me off - it wasn't (to me at any rate).

I've enjoyed all the Culture novels, much more so than his non sf stuff. I have to say I've never taken to the Disc world books which is a shame, since there seem to be millions of the buggers.

nbt - Member
I read it last year, I struggled through to the end but it's not really got me looking to read any more Banks books.

The Algebrist, Matter, Against a Dark Background and Use of Weapons are my favourites. Give them a go.

Terry Pratchett isn't to everyone's taste. Some of it I like but it can be a bit not half as funny as it thinks it is. Not liking discworld doesn't mean you don't like other sci-fi. Also doesn't guarantee you [i]do[/i] like it but there could be something you get into. I'm a big fan of Alastair Reynolds' stuff.

Reynolds is ace, though if Banks annoying slow starts put you off him (Banks), Reynolds definitely isn't for you... I've often found myself ranting "goddam man tell me the fricken story" only to be amazed as to how well the intricacy's pay off in the end.

The Algebrist, Matter, Against a Dark Background and Use of Weapons are my favourites

Interesting... I tried Use of Weapons shortly after it was written, and failed to finish it, which is very rare for me. Two years ago I read the Algebraist and and thought it excellent, followed it up with Matter and liked that.

From what you say, I'll need to find my copy of Use of Weapons and try again.

Just finished reading it. Not read any of the "Culture" novels before so it was a heavy going to start with but really enjoyed it. Will be trying another of the earlier books on the back of it.

I can see the problem right there, as the background society, (the Culture), is already firmly established, along with some characters, and the major parts of the Culture, like the ship Minds, and their ...[i]idiosyncratic[/i] approach to names. There's only one Banks Culture book I've only read once, and that's [i]Player Of Games[/i], because the main character is such an unremittingly loathsome piece of shit, with not a single redeeming feature, that I can't enjoy or read the book. All the others I've got as paperback, hardback, and the whole lot as ebooks as well.

I was looking at the BSFA Awards prize for Pyramids in 1989 - probably about the time I gave it a go.

But I'm all up for being corrected as it potentially opens up a whole bunch of potential reading I'd (stupidly) disregarded.

It was the 'comic' element of Pratchett that most put me off - it wasn't (to me at any rate).

He's had me standing in a bookshop, giggling like mad, but his humour you either get or not.
The thing with SF is that it's as wide in what is classed as SF as anything just classed as 'novels', in fact, one bookshop in Bath won't even classify it's fiction section, just lists them by author, because they feel using genre classifications restricts what people will pick up and read, which is a good point.
Convert, as well as Banks, you might like to check out William Gibson. He invented the Term 'cyberspace' in one of his early short stories, possibly [i]Johnny Mnemonic*[/i], and his books have always had a gritty, noir-ish feel, with lots of futuristic, but recognisable technology. His books go in trilogies, but the latest three have dropped the futuristic bias, existing in a present day, but slightly [i]shifted[/i] society, and involve cool-hunting, denim obsessives, military contract espionage, and are really very readable. Pattern Recognition, Spook Country, Zero History are those three.
Charles Stross writes in a wide variety of styles, and he's very readable as well, some of his books being police procedural stories set in an independent Scotland, (Halting State), others are a strange, but humour out cross between 007 and Cthulu mythology. He writes lots of books.
*Good story, collected in [i]Burning Chrome[/i], crap film. Worth starting Gibson with this book, as it establishes style, and a number of characters who turn up in [i]Neuromancer[/i], his first, award-winning novel.
I rather envy you, not being familiar with a very large, literary genre, because you can be discovering books for the first time that I first read twenty, thirty, forty years ago, many of which I still read to this day.
Good luck, and enjoy! 😀

The end of The Use Of Weapons is just utterly brilliant.

The later one's have not been quite as good as the really top Culture novels. [i]Excession[/i] and [i]Look to Windward[/i] are my favourites.

But [i]Surface Detail[/i] and [i]The Hydrogen Sonata[/i] are worth working through. In these last two Banks seems to have repeated the theme of a Girl and her Ship.

Yes stick with it....

Having got through most of them I'd go with Player of Games, Excession and probably one other as my top 3.

Use of Weapons is excellent, as is Inversions (IMHO). I've got about seventy pages into The Hydrogen Sonata but I've not had enough time to read lately.

Feersum Endjinn is on my shelf waiting to be picked up.

Count Zero

You failed to mention that your handle comes from Gibsons first trilogy:-).

TBH I second all of your recommendations.

about the same in to The Hydrogen Sonata PJM and rolling along nicely.

In general with the books I find he spent the first 2/3's building up and it can be heavy going and hard work but the pay off at the end is worth it.

Another recommendation for those who like Banks (with or without the M) is The City and The City by China Mieville. I don't like the rest of his stuff but that one is brilliant

Just started rereading surface detail for the third time because of this thread. I can't express an unbiased opinion on it as I first read it during my wife's marathon labour with our son.

Banks can be a bit up and down, I always say start with Consider Phlebas though I love Player of Games. Surface Detail didn't make that much of an impression on me, I remember some characters just not really going off at all, have to give it another shot (though, I did like that last line, settled the first great internet argument I ever had, only about 15 years too late mind but I WAS RIGHT! Wooo!

Re Pratchett, he's also very up and down, IMO as a rule if Rincewind's in it, it'll be repetitive and slapstick and pastichey and, well, rubbish frankly. Sourcery was alright I suppose. If Sam Vimes or the Witches are in it, it's much more likely to go well, (except Masquerade, urgh) he seems to take his whole tone from his characters, and some of them lead their own plots better than others.

simonhbacon - Member
Count Zero

You failed to mention that your handle comes from Gibsons first trilogy:-).

I've mentioned it before, I chose the name ten-eleven years ago, I'd change it if I could, bored with it now. Still love Bill Gibson's books, though, especially the Bridge trilogy, and the latest Bigend Trilogy. Wondering what he's going to write next; trouble is, his writing speed is as slow as his conversational speed, the pauses when he speaks you could fly an Airbus 380 through!

Northwind - Member
Surface Detail didn't make that much of an impression on me, I remember some characters just not really going off at all, have to give it another shot (though, I did like that last line, settled the first great internet argument I ever had, only about 15 years too late mind but I WAS RIGHT! Wooo!

It's a great last line.

How long 'til some one films [i]Consider Phlebas[/i]? It could be a great sci-fi film. Just need an enormous budget. Except it would probably make 3 5 hour films.

It would probably take a while but I remember it as one of the easiest and quickest reads of any of his books. It seemed to have a more linear time line and be faster paced from the start - didn't ship it out with me so may need to buy it again and re read it...

Most of the problem filming any of the books would be around making the aliens he describes and agreeing on how to pronounce any of the alien words....

I remember when I was a kid thinking that The Lord of the Rings would make a stunning film but you'd never be able to make it - then CGI came along 😉

It's all about the "minds" though, innit. Any of the books that feature those fabulous creations having a good old ding dong between themselves is just fantastic.

What was the last one? Hydrogen Sonata? That was ****ing Epic. Truly spectacularly realised space battles.

Sorry, getting a bit excited! :-0

Stick with it, blooooming brilliant. Hovered up all the culture books.

Surface Detail is alright. The Algebraist is hard work.

I love Consider Phlebas, and agree it would make a great film. Dirty hand-held weapons that kick the shit out of everything, and anti-gravity suits. What's not to like?

However, I do sometimes picture the Idirans as looking like this:

[img] [/img]

I do like the full name of the ship [i]Mistake Not My Current State Of Joshing Gentle Peevishness For The Awesome And Terrible Majesty Of The Towering Seas Of Ire That Are Themselves The Milquetoast Shallows Fringing My Vast Oceans Of Wrath[/i] in Hydrogen Sonata. If nothing else IMB had a great turn for names of stuff.

Surface Detail is one of my favourites, for any Culture geek how can you not smile when "Falling Outside the Normal Moral Constraints" is introduced?

In fact, the Guardian has this to say in the review:

" In Surface Detail the stand-out character is a sadistic Abominator class ship called the "Falling Outside the Normal Moral Constraints". The warship's barely concealed glee when, after centuries of waiting, it finally gets to blow some other ships up, is hilarious"

I like Ian M. Banks books, but they suffer from the fact that you know the Culture is usually going to come out on top. That's why Excession is my favourite, as none of them really has a clue about what's going on. Thre Hydrogen Sonata is second favorite as it links back to Excession and includes a lot of bored super intelligences that, in the end, achieve nothing.

I've just been reading some books by Paul Mcleary set around the moons of Saturn and Jupiter. The first book is called The Quiet War. I like them because they are full of fallible humans and almost believable technology.

They're all good. But:

Against A Dark Background

Yes. +1

I really enjoyed the hydrogen sonata too, read a bit like some of the earlier culture stuff, and made me very sad that there will be no more 🙁

Surface Detail blew me away. Just awesome. Left me speechless.

made me very sad that there will be no more

+1

I got the impression that he knew his number was up when he wrote the Hydrogen Sonata.

Its a sort of "no matter how exciting the journey, nothing you do makes any difference in the end" story.

And the whole civilization disappearing by metaphorically clicking its heels and saying there no place like home?

A fan tribute from the time which I found rather moving :

GCU [i]Read 'Em and Weep[/i] to GSV [i]Does My Mind Look Big in This?[/i]: A mutual friend says it's time to go. Do you have any associates near [[i]system ID[/i]], some time in the next dozen megaseconds?
GSV [i]Does My Mind...[/i] to ROU [i]Not Just a Pretty Face[/i]: Fancy a detour to [[i]system ID[/i]], since you're passing? There's some baggage to collect: [[i]target designator[/i]]
ROU [i]Not Just...[/i] to GSV [i]Does My Mind...[/i]: It would stretch my schedule. What makes you think I've got the legs for that?
GSV [i]Does My Mind...[/i] to ROU [i]Not Just...[/i]: A little bird told me about your refit. Go on, you're just itching to try it out.
ROU [i]Not Just...[/i] to GSV [i]Does My Mind...[/i]: "Bird"? "Itching"? Have you gone native? Oh, all right then, since you're twisting my arm.
GSV [i]Does My Mind...[/i] to ROU [i]Not Just...[/i]: Look who's talking: you're the one with "arms" and "legs". Bet you can't do it in five megaseconds.
ROU [i]Not Just...[/i] to GSV [i]Does My Mind...[/i]: Aren't I'm supposed to say something like "Let's see the colour of your money"? Anyway, watch this.
GSV [i]Does My Mind...[/i] to ROU [i]Not Just...[/i]: I'm waiting. ... OK, that really is rather nice. Next time you're nearby I'll send you an avatar to perform an appropriate low whistle.
GSV [i]Does My Mind...[/i] to GCU [i]Read 'Em and Weep[/i]: Our friend should make his farewells, and be ready for displacement by ROU [i]Not Just a Pretty Face[/i] at time [[i]timestamp[/i]]. Are there any countermeasures in place?
GCU [i]Read 'Em and Weep[/i] to GSV [i]Does My Mind...[/i] and ROU [i]Not Just...[/i]: Much obliged. No countermeasures, I'm afraid: it's all a bit stone axes. They still think digital watches are a pretty neat idea. No displacement, either: the [i]Arbitrary[/i] doesn't want us frightening the horses. Scan-and-forward, if you please. The usual cover story is in place.
ROU [i]Not Just...[/i] to GCU [i]Read 'Em and Weep[/i] and GSV [i]Does My Mind...[/i]: Sigh. I'll put my toys away then. A pity: it's an attractive system, but I always think those little blue planets look better with a ring. Or a really big crater. Who is this guy anyway? I'm dying to meet him. Or maybe I've got that the wrong way round. ... Scan complete. Oh, it's [i]him[/i]. Let me know when you decant him and I'll drop by to pay my respects. Here you are: [[i]entanglement scan stream[/i]]

Nice nod to Douglas Adams there too.

@bencooper; yes, it made me smile the first time I read that, not long after IMB passed away. Nice subtle little detail.

WackoAK - Member
Surface Detail is one of my favourites, for any Culture geek how can you not smile when "Falling Outside the Normal Moral Constraints" is introduced?

In fact, the Guardian has this to say in the review:

" In Surface Detail the stand-out character is a sadistic Abominator class ship called the "Falling Outside the Normal Moral Constraints". The warship's barely concealed glee when, after centuries of waiting, it finally gets to blow some other ships up, is hilarious"

😀

I've tried and failed to get into his science fiction, which is odd, as I've loved all his other work.

Against a Dark Background I found quite hard to read - but might revisit it. It's the one that goes backwards in one direction whilst forwards in another?

Odd as the more I read of his mainstream (IB) stuff, the more I felt it was treading water -- flashes of really good imagination, humour -- but just felt it was covering same ground really..

It's the one that goes backwards in one direction whilst forwards in another?

That's Use of Weapons, whose themes & main character pop up elsewhere too (no spoilers!). Against A Dark Background is the one with the Lazy Guns, set outside the Culture.

I like Ian M. Banks books, but they suffer from the fact that you know the Culture is usually going to come out on top.

I love those bits. When the big Ship finally gets bored of being pushed around and shows what it can do.

But the books where the Culture can't fix things are best. That's why I like [i]Look to Windward[/i]

I got the impression that he knew his number was up when he wrote the Hydrogen Sonata.

I don't think he did. I think he was diagnosed halfway through writing the Quarry. [i]After[/i] he'd decided the main protagonist would have cancer.

The last TV interview contained a tantalising suggestion that if he lived long enough then the next book should be a huge Culture novel. I got the impression he didn't think The Quarry was a big enough bang to go out on. Sadly he didn't get time.

matthewjb - Member

I love those bits. When the big Ship finally gets bored of being pushed around and shows what it can do.

I loved the bit in Excession where the Killing Time discovers it's accidentally failed to commit suicide, and coincidentally has won the fight it was trying to gloriously die in, and feels a bit embarassed about it all.