[Closed] I wonder if she thinks it was a life well lived.

[i]Anyone remember Arthur Scargill? [/i]

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Now !. Thats a comb-over !.
😆

I know this may not be the most credible source, but I've been reading this:

[url] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_miner s'_strike_(1984%E2%80%931985)[url]

Miners and the unions sound to be quite sinister.
so far.
(haven't finished reading it yet)

It was a comb-over made out of brillo pads that had gone rusty

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Rumour has it, he taught Donald everything he knows

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his mates must've been good at getting at all that coal...

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I have to agree. All those whining about how knackered their village or town is, now the pit closed... 25 odd years ago.

MOVE !.

Rumour has it, he taught THE Donald everything he knows

Very sorry, but what most seem to overlook is that A LOT of people still do.

We've only re-located those jobs to cheaper, as dirty, parts of the world.
While we still benefit by receiving the goods from India and China.

My post went on to say that they still do - even in the UK. Last years mine disaster in the Swansea valley was a good example. Small private pit...

I have to agree. All those whining about how knackered their village or town is, now the pit closed... 25 odd years ago.

MOVE !.

I did - I moved TO the former pit village... property cheaper and all that. My point wasn't that I was moaning about "how knackered their village or town is, now the pit closed... 25 odd years ago" - more that these communities are still suffering from the blight that was caused / inflicted by those policies. Many folks have moved on, got an education and better jobs elsewhere - all good.

But, the point being made, was that the damage done during the 1980s is still there, it hasn't gone away or been "made better", and that perhaps is one reason for the enduring dislike of the Thatcher Govt...

And to discover that actually, pit closures were started in the late 70s by the labour gov at the time....

One is certain for every single mine ever opened - it will close. Mineral reserves are finite, and every mine and mining town will inevitably suffer the decline that comes with dwindling reserves. The trick is to plan ahead for when that happens.

He didn't like dealing with a woman ...

Miners and the unions sound to be quite sinister.
so far.

the unions as they were at the time needed breaking, and Thatcher stood up and did it. Bit different from the slimy politicians we have had since, like Blair for one.

the unions as they were at the time needed breaking, and Thatcher stood up and did it. Bit different from the slimy politicians we have had since, like Blair for one.

Exactly. What do people think would have happened if we'd have had a labour government at the time!

To be fair to Brown, he did also scribble notes to the wounded when he visited them. Can't comment on spelling, mind.

rkk01.

Ok, if you moved to a place you think has been ruined by the closure of a pit, over 1/4 of a century ago.
And you're happy about it, then you're not complaining ?...

Yes, finite mineral resource. Tell it to the ^^ who are still compaining about Thatcher and the pit closures.

What I've learnt, reading that wiki page, is that it seems to be another story about Gov owned, loss making industries of the 70s.
Where men worked, expecting the Gov and the country to support them in their loss making jobs.
We simply couldn't afford it. Loss making pits had to close.

Funny this. It reminds me of stories about the gold rush in the US.
Where towns sprung up, the gold flowed.
But when the gold ran out, so did the folk.

So... why not here in the UK ?.
Once the coal ran out, or the pit closed.
Just move, if you have to, for work.

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Days lost to striking had to be addressed.

So - you pit has been closed down, unemplyment has gone from under a million to obver 3 million.

Where do you move to to get a job?

That is such a naive view - I was in the workforce in those days. In 1977 I went to a small local hospital for a job - and was given one. I went back in 1980 looking for a job - there was a waiting list of 60 people looking for jobs there.

It didn't matter what you did - jobs were simply not available for the vast majority of folk.

This was a deliberate policy to drive down the cost of labour - and the result is the social dysfunction we still have today.

think Bob Crow and the hassle he causes - then multiple it several times and give him more power (and hair) : and then you get close to Arthur Scargill...

TandemJeremy - Member: jobs were simply not available for the vast majority of folk.

Some truth in that for some folk.

This was a deliberate policy to drive down the cost of labour

One man's "deliberate policy to drive down the cost of labour" is another man's "introduction of important structural labour market reforms, subsequently copied by other nations"

Truth probably somewhere in the middle.

This was a deliberate policy to drive down the cost of labour

Ignore him

This was a deliberate policy to drive down the cost of labour - and the result is the social dysfunction we still have today.

Thatchers government encouraged Nissan, Honda, etc into this country - which proved that British workers are capable of producing decent quality cars.

Why couldn't they under Leyland and Rover prior to Honda? Nothing to do with the bolshy unions of the time. I think the unions and jerks like Scargill deserve all the blame for that era.

globalisation, easy immigration, outsourcing everything to the far east, slack parental discipline and the elevation of child rights to the point where they all think they are untouchable has had far more effect at driving down labour costs and creating the 'social dysfunction' that we see nowadays.

Do you really think there is no link between government policy, mass unemployment and social problems so evident now?

Do you really think there is no link between government policy, mass unemployment and social problems so evident now?

not from the policies of that era - even selling council houses had good effects on most of the dump council estates that I have ever seen.

rkk01.

Ok, if you moved to a place you think has been ruined by the closure of a pit, over 1/4 of a century ago.
And you're happy about it, then you're not complaining ?...

Yes, finite mineral resource. Tell it to the ^^ who are still compaining about Thatcher and the pit closures.

What I've learnt, reading that wiki page, is that it seems to be another story about Gov owned, loss making industries of the 70s.
Where men worked, expecting the Gov and the country to support them in their loss making jobs.
We simply couldn't afford it. Loss making pits had to close.

Funny this. It reminds me of stories about the gold rush in the US.
Where towns sprung up, the gold flowed.
But when the gold ran out, so did the folk.

So... why not here in the UK ?.
Once the coal ran out, or the pit closed.
Just move, if you have to, for work.

Momentum - go and re-read my post. I have no complaints about where I live. It's a bit scruffy round the edge, but that's fine with me.

Of those "locals" (I'm not a local) that remember the miners strike, some are glad to see the back of the unions, long rakes of coal trucks and a lifestyle revolving around a dangerous and dirty industry.

Others are still deeply bitter about the 80s and the impact that decade had on their communities - Individually they may (or may not) have moved on to better things. COLLECTIVELY, they remain very bitter towards a distant Govt that had scant regard for the people on the receiving end of their policies.

My post wasn't to "complain" or whinge about the devastation of the coal filed.

Just to point out to those in other parts of the country that the damage inflicted was very deep and has been very long-lasting.

You're also wrong on the economics.

I'm a mining geologist by training. Coldly and dispassionately put - the biggest scandal of Thatcher's coal policy was the SQUANDERING of the UK's mineral resource. In mining, the economics of production are dependent on todays price. But tomorrow's price might be higher.

The big international mining companies will mothball mines until proces rise - which they do - back to the finite nature of natural resources...

Why couldn't they under Leyland and Rover prior to Honda? Nothing to do with the bolshy unions of the time. I think the unions and jerks like Scargill [b]deserve all the blame[/b] for that era.

Really, that's very short sighted - do you actually believe this??

Did the unions design the Morris Marina or Austin Allegro??
British industry as a whole - unions, management, particularly the antiquated infrastructure, was in a huge post-war rut.

The whole thing needed a huge kick up the ass, and vitally investment in new modern plant and equipment.

Management with no vision
Workforce / unions with no interest in modernising working practices
Investment - not available to finance the required modernisation

The unions should properly take part of the blame. Working practices were unsustainable - but to solely blame unions is an utterly one-sided and flawed view

To be fair though, management did commision the redesign of the Allegro and Marina so you got exactly the same car but with square headlights.

[i]the biggest scandal of Thatcher's coal policy was the SQUANDERING of the UK's mineral resource. [b]In mining, the economics of production are dependent on todays price. But tomorrow's price might be higher.[/b][/i]

Thats fine.
But its a gamble for a private sector company to take.
Not for a government to take, while employing people at a loss.

I did read your post.
I wasn't saying your were complaining about your choice to live there.
Obviously you are not.
But you have remarked on the scruffyness of the relics from a past era.
Where, as an echo from WW2, the coal industry was nationalised.
By the 70s, the cost of maintaining a nationalised coal mining industry was costing us as a nation.
Financially and democratically.

Who were the unions to think that they could topple UK governments ?.

If your pit closed.
You moved, you found work else where, doing something else.
Whoever said life is fair or equal ?.
So why try to force it to be.

Life for every person on earth will never be fair or equal.

Stealing someone's things is not fair so I assume we just shrug and say who said life was fair why force it etc
its a specious argument.

If your pit closed.
You moved, you found work else where, doing something else.

Where towns sprung up, the gold flowed.
But when the gold ran out, so did the folk.

But its a gamble for a private sector company to take.
Not for a government to take, while employing people at a loss.

slainte ➡ rob

I have to agree. All those whining about how knackered their village or town is, now the pit closed... 25 odd years ago.

MOVE !.

It seems someone has failed to notice that social mobility has stalled somewhat.

think Bob Crow and the hassle he causes - then multiple it several times and give him more power (and hair) : and then you get close to Arthur Scargill...

Amazing. Think of all the policies started under the thatcher Government and continued to this day, particularly financial de-regulation. This has brought the country to it's knees far more effectively than any arthur Scargill could have done.

Did the unions design the Morris Marina or Austin Allegro??
British industry as a whole - unions, management, particularly the antiquated infrastructure, was in a huge post-war rut.

The whole thing needed a huge kick up the ass, and vitally investment in new modern plant and equipment.

It was far easier for a Government to close it down or privatise the "profitable" parts than re-investment.

Life for every person on earth will never be fair or equal.

Oh well, let's shrug our shoulders and carry on. If life was fair and equal, capitalism would be up sh*t creek.

I for one won't be celebrating when she dies because her legacy continues. It is this and it's supporters that have to be destroyed.

Arthur Scargill was absolutely, unequivocally correct in everything he said and did during the strike, apart from the most important thing of all, the ballot.

As for that woman, I'm afraid I do hate her.

She is responsible for many of the current social problems we still have in this country and brought more hardship and misery to more British people than any other polititian I can think of.

Shee started the destruction of the socially democratic post war society that so many people fought so hard for, legitimised greed and the acquisition of wealth above all other considerations and attempted to remove any political power from the working class.

Shee started the destruction of the socially democratic post war society that so many people fought so hard for,

This.

When we examine our country today there are clear links back to her policies and her influence that cannot be defended. I won't dance for joy when she dies, I'll get no pleasure from her death because what she began is still with us. It pervades our country like a cancer. When it is finally rooted out and purged, then I'll dance.

On the subject of people getting on with things under their own steam, and 'getting on their bike to look for work' etc. I will add this thought from a man far greater than any of us posting here today...

"It is a cruel jest to say to a bootless man that he should lift himself by his own bootstraps. It is even worse to tell a man to lift himself by his own bootstraps when someone is standing on the boot."

Martin Luther King.

things wouldn't be better if maggie fell down dead now. she's just an old fart waiting for the inevitable. Goodnight vienna.

responsible for many of the current social problems we still have in this country and brought more hardship and misery to more British people than any other polititian I can think of.

that'll be Guillaume le Bâtard then. Most of this is all his fault well before maggie

Tazzy, he certainly scoured the North, I'll give you that, but given the population size then, I reckon I'm still right.

Tazzy, he certainly scoured the North

and made a more robust class system, and gave more power to the church, and reduced freemen to serfdom...

AND HE WAS FRENCH!!

nah fatcher werent that evil 😀

Mining - dangerous, dirty work, with a legacy of industrial accidents and chronic ill-health. But mining was a well paid, skilled job for very many people.

Shee started the destruction of the socially democratic post war society that so many people fought so hard for

It was on the ropes - you don't know if it would have recovered or not without her. Don't be myopic.

I've not red all this, but has anyone posted a picture of Zelda from the Terrahawks yet?

you don't know if it would have recovered or not without her

I think it is self apparent to anyone around in the late 70s / early 80s, that the UK wasn't going to miraculously recovery without dramatic reforms.

Would the socially democratic order have returned [i]sans[/i] Maggie - who knows...

... one thing is for sure, she killed off any lingering pulse that might have remained.

Yes reforms were definately required - and not [u]just[/u] to unions / working practices. However, many people at the time believed that the reforms were pursued way beyond what was necessary to get the country back on its feet, and the reason was ideological rather than economic

[i]The reality is far more extensive and costly than the sinking of one obsolete WW2 cruiser [/i]

Indeed. It's more about the 300-odd lives which were lost rather than the bit of metal itself.

Shee started the destruction of the socially democratic post war society that so many people fought so hard for,

...and you can bet that those same people were really proud of 1970s Britain. Prosperity and social cohesion for all????

Indeed. It's more about the 300-odd lives which were lost rather than the bit of metal itself.

You dont want your ships sunk and your men drowned, dont be an anti-semitic, fascistic dictatorship and go invading folks then. I've known a lot of servicemen who went down there in 1982, I dont why anyone feels the need to apologise for sinking the Belgrano.

[i]I dont why anyone feels the need to apologise for sinking the Belgrano.[/i][sic]
And unfortunately it's not just you.

Wasn't it compulsory for everything to be brown and orange in the 70's?

Perhaps, as blue was her favourite colour, she really wanted to eradicate it all. Starting with this

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and this

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The reality is far more extensive and costly than the sinking of one obsolete WW2 cruiser

Indeed. It's more about the 300-odd lives which were lost rather than the bit of metal itself.

907 lives according to wiki

You've totally missed my point - Thatcher [b][i]caused[/i][/b] the Falklands war. 🙄

All this talk of more balls than anyone else, not turning back etc, etc, it's all utter BS & spin.

Going to war in the S Atlantic was the biggest U-Turn that Thatcher made - a hugely embarrasing cock-up, jingoistically dressed up in a union flag by the media and the Govt and presented to the public as a Great resolute British success - "Just rejoice at that news"

molgrips - Member

It was on the ropes - you don't know if it would have recovered or not without her. Don't be myopic.

The ideals of a fairer, more democratic society, with justice, reasonably priced heat, light, power and public transport available to everyone;
The provision of truly democratic health care system, a decent education system for all, not just the privilaged few, greater equality of opportunity and almost full employment.
These ideals were on the ropes were they?

THESE were the things that people fought hard for and these are the things that that woman sought to destroy and undermine.

Don't tell me not to be myopic:
I grew up watching a proud city, the first industrial city in the world, systematically destroyed.
The hopes and aspirations of millions of people, along with the businesses and communities that they created were gone within a generation.

British manufacturing was systematically undermined and sold off because the Tory party decided that they, and not the people who actually ran the best engineering, mining, shipbuilding, chemical and aerospace companies in the world knew best.
They were scared that true democracy might actually take a little of the power and wealth away from the ruling classes and put it in the hands of those who actually produced the end result.

The birthright that should have been passed down to future generations was squandered - all because that woman knew best and knew that appealing to the basist instincts of greed, division and hatred would allow her and her friends to do whatever they wanted.

I'm not sure if I believe in evil, but if it does exist then what she achieved in her time in office is as good an example as I can find.