Forum menu
'I have never ...
 

[Closed] 'I have never yet come across an engineer who can turn his hands to business'

Posts: 0
Free Member
 

It's different, but then building bridges is different to making engines and they are both done by engineers

Exactly - the skill-set for engineering engines and bridges is broadly similar. Designing, optimising and implimenting software is a broadly different skillset - as, perhaps, a crass example, if I asked you to predict the fatigue life of an engine component, would your technical qualifications allow you to do that? By comparision, as engineer myself I have only a passing interest in coding, beyond the bits I can cobble together to automate routine tasks.

Engineer - has the ability to think creatively when the above doesn't work

Is that not being too general - you could be describing a doctor diagnosing and treating a patient in a similar way? But they aren't some form of 'human engineering technician'?


 
Posted : 17/06/2011 4:00 pm
Posts: 19914
Free Member
 

Ah, I see. Not real engineers then. Thanks for clarification.

Don't talk shite

He's not. A real engineer can make things. REAL things. Out of metal usually, in a lathe, or with spanners and stuff, or maybe bricks and mortar.

My dad is an engineer. He made stuff from metal and fixed big machines.
I have a mate who is as well: He's currently building his second MTB frame, welded up in a jig he made himself, with tubing from a pipe bender he made himself becasue commercial ones are rubbish. He has lathes and a pillar drill in his garage, and swarf on the floor. THAT'S engineering!!

Software "engineer". Don't make me laugh! 🙂


 
Posted : 17/06/2011 4:02 pm
Posts: 2
Free Member
 

Karl Benz didn't do too badly.

Ref to loads of eponymously titled German mega engineering corps who are all far far far bigger than anything Sugar will ever build.


 
Posted : 17/06/2011 4:02 pm
Posts: 91169
Free Member
 

Of course not, but if I asked you to design a thread-safe connection pool for a high load system, would you be able to do that?


 
Posted : 17/06/2011 4:05 pm
Posts: 6009
Free Member
 

"Engineer" from the French "ingénieur", ie someone with inginuity who can design a solution to a problem.
Be it a car engine, a bridge, a comuter programme.

BTW, I've a MEng in automotive engineering and am working towards Chartership with the IMechE.


 
Posted : 17/06/2011 4:06 pm
Posts: 6009
Free Member
 

A real engineer can make things

A real engineer can [s]make[/s] design things


 
Posted : 17/06/2011 4:07 pm
Posts: 0
Free Member
 

PeterPoddy do you not think software is "real"? Do you live in the 1960s?


 
Posted : 17/06/2011 4:07 pm
Posts: 91169
Free Member
 

THAT'S engineering!!

I'd call it fabrication, [s]PeterTroller[/s] PeterPoddy.


 
Posted : 17/06/2011 4:07 pm
Posts: 0
Free Member
 

"Computer Engineer" = Nerd.

End of thread.


 
Posted : 17/06/2011 4:08 pm
Posts: 0
Full Member
Topic starter
 

Right come on then when is someone an engineer:

Someone who fiex cars - mechanic.
Someone who fixes your washing machine - mechanic.
Someone who produces technical drawings - technician.
Someone who operates a lathe - still not an engineer......


 
Posted : 17/06/2011 4:08 pm
Posts: 1711
Free Member
 

A real engineer can make things. REAL things.

Like a brick layer, a car mechanic, a painter?

A software engineer also makes things. Are you saying software isn't real? How did I see your message if it's not real? How am I replying if it's not real? Perhaps one of us is mad?


 
Posted : 17/06/2011 4:09 pm
Posts: 19914
Free Member
 

PeterPoddy do you not think software is "real

Well, can I hold it in my hands? Nope. It exists as letters and numbers inside a machine.

If software is engineering, then so is being an author: I could be a 'Romance Enginner' if I wrote a love story for example.....


 
Posted : 17/06/2011 4:09 pm
 Del
Posts: 8278
Full Member
 

the guy who founded our company was an engineer, as was the guy who started our uk office, and after about 20 years, the founder flogged the lot and now spends his time doing trackdays on fast bikes, or ragging around in one of his porches, among other things. the engineer who opened our office is spending his time building houses and taking his formula ford to trackdays.
apparently the company who bought us 'had very deep pockets'. they've done ok as far as i can tell.


 
Posted : 17/06/2011 4:10 pm
Posts: 1711
Free Member
 

Btw. I've yet to come across a boss of a business who isn't a pompous twit.


 
Posted : 17/06/2011 4:10 pm
Posts: 19914
Free Member
 

Like a brick layer, a car mechanic, a painter?

A brick layer follws the design of a Civil engineer
A mechanic fixes things (I'm a mechanic)
And a painter is an artist, who copies real things.


 
Posted : 17/06/2011 4:11 pm
Posts: 0
Free Member
 

Of course not, but if I asked you to design a thread-safe connection pool, would you be able to do that?

No, but as an engineer, I wouldn't be expected to - I'm not belittling the skills set, all I'm saying is I don't see 'software engineering' being connected to the skillset taught to professional engineers beyond the scope/optimise/impliment "umbrella"

Last time I checked, certainly at my old Uni, software engineering was being taught as a course unit as part of a computer science degree in the context of bringing design rigour to software development - there was no 'software engineering' degree in it's own right.

EDIT: Spot the much needed 'NOT' 😉


 
Posted : 17/06/2011 4:11 pm
Posts: 19914
Free Member
 

"Computer Engineer" = Nerd.

Stroppy nerd, it seems....,[quote 😈


 
Posted : 17/06/2011 4:12 pm
Posts: 0
Free Member
 

PeterPoddy you can't conceptualize things that you can't hold in your hands? Bless.


 
Posted : 17/06/2011 4:13 pm
Posts: 349
Free Member
 

He's not. A real engineer can make things. REAL things. Out of metal usually, in a lathe, or with spanners and stuff, or maybe bricks and mortar.

Are people who write the low level code to make robotic arms work engineers then? There must be some engineering in an arm building part of a car or in building the arm, so surely the person who told the arm what to do (but didn't put the hardware together) is classed as an engineer?


 
Posted : 17/06/2011 4:13 pm
Posts: 91169
Free Member
 

If software is engineering, then so is being an author: I could be a 'Romance Enginner' if I wrote a love story for example

Do you not think there are rigorous principles behind Software Engineering then?


 
Posted : 17/06/2011 4:14 pm
Posts: 0
Full Member
Topic starter
 

So is Coputer Software engineering science or engineering. Basically if it is an applied science then it is tending towards engineering.

"Engineer - has the ability to think creatively when the above doesn't work. i.e. milling a part to fix the car..."

No thats a good mechanic as opposed to a fitter.

To engineer you have to understand the forces and then design a solution rather than just making something fit or using trial and error.


 
Posted : 17/06/2011 4:15 pm
Posts: 19914
Free Member
 

Are people who write the low level code to make robotic arms work engineers then?

No. But the bloke that made the arm might be.... He might also be a mechanic....

(This is like shooting fish in a barrel..... 😉 )


 
Posted : 17/06/2011 4:15 pm
Posts: 0
Free Member
 

An engineeer can write software, its one of his tools. But someone who can only write software is probably not an engineer imho.


 
Posted : 17/06/2011 4:15 pm
Posts: 0
Free Member
 

Er, Ove Arup?


 
Posted : 17/06/2011 4:15 pm
Posts: 91169
Free Member
 

Last time I checked, certainly at my old Uni, software engineering was being taught as a course unit as part of a computer science degree in the context of bring design rigour to software development - there was not 'software engineering' degree in it's own right

That varies according to the uni in question ime.

No, but as an engineer, I wouldn't be expected to - I'm not belittling the skills set, all I'm saying is I don't see 'software engineering' being connected to the skillset taught to professional engineers beyond the scope/optimise/impliment "umbrella"

The concepts are very similar. The medium is different, but that doesn't matter. You're still a linguist if you study French or Proto-European aren't you?


 
Posted : 17/06/2011 4:16 pm
Posts: 349
Free Member
 

Last time I checked, certainly at my old Uni, software engineering was being taught as a course unit as part of a computer science degree in the context of bring design rigour to software development - there was not 'software engineering' degree in it's own right.

There's both bachelors and masters degrees in software engineering at the uni I went to.


 
Posted : 17/06/2011 4:16 pm
Posts: 19914
Free Member
 

So is Coputer Software engineering science or engineering

To be honest, I'd say it's a skill, or maybe an art. But it ain't making anything. Do you 'make' a computer program, or 'write' it?


 
Posted : 17/06/2011 4:17 pm
Posts: 91169
Free Member
 

An engineeer can write software, its one of his tools

In the same way that I can change a cambelt.. 🙂

If an engineer can design systems to the same level that I can then he is also a software engineer - no questions there.

So is Coputer Software engineering science or engineering

Ah.. Computer Science is a different ballgame altogether.

Do you 'make' a computer program, or 'write' it?

Doesn't matter. 'Write' is a specialization of 'make' in this case.


 
Posted : 17/06/2011 4:17 pm
Posts: 0
Free Member
 

Software Engineer = Pedantic nerd.


 
Posted : 17/06/2011 4:18 pm
Posts: 19914
Free Member
 

Software 'engineer' is a grand title, nothing more.

Like 'marine coating and heating technician'....


 
Posted : 17/06/2011 4:19 pm
Posts: 91169
Free Member
 

Software Engineer = Pedantic nerd.

And vitally so 🙂

Software 'engineer' is a grand title, nothing more

Grand title for what? A menial job?


 
Posted : 17/06/2011 4:19 pm
Posts: 349
Free Member
 

Stop trying to troll, PeterPoddy 😛


 
Posted : 17/06/2011 4:20 pm
Posts: 19914
Free Member
 

An engineeer can write software, its one of his tools

In the same way that I can change a cambelt..

So he would be a 'software mechanic' then?


 
Posted : 17/06/2011 4:20 pm
Posts: 2622
Full Member
 

Steve Jobs and Bill Gates were engineers - Software Engineers

Lets all play nice - that can of worms has been kicked to death on here before 🙂

Not done enough, it seems!

FWIW, I'm am embedded software engineer with a degree in electrical and electronic engineering. Is an electronic engineer who designs FPGAs an engineer? What if he does it by writing VHDL code?


 
Posted : 17/06/2011 4:20 pm
Posts: 0
Free Member
 

The concepts are very similar

The METHODOLOGY is broadly similar, as it is for most applied sciences (medicine/dentistry/vets - applied biology etc), but the concepts required for implimentation are NOT similar. See my example above, where we both agree we couldn't do each others job - I would expect a Aero or Civil engineer to be able to rock up at my desk and we'd be, conceptually, talking the same language.

In the same way that I can change a cambelt..

Non-comparision - you didn't engineer the cambelt, you followed the instructions on how to do it. Likewise, I blindly follow the help manual like any fool when knocking up bits of code.


 
Posted : 17/06/2011 4:20 pm
Posts: 19914
Free Member
 

Stop trying to troll PeterPoddy

Sorry, it's too easy. Plus I'm right and they know it. The sooner they accept that, the better I think you'll find. 🙂

TTFN
Got a 1.5+ hr drive home now, I've been educating you lot when I could have been on my way home! 🙂


 
Posted : 17/06/2011 4:21 pm
Posts: 349
Free Member
 

Sorry, it's too easy. Plus I'm right and they know it. The sooner they accept that, the better I think you'll find.

I'm on "their" side 😛


 
Posted : 17/06/2011 4:22 pm
Posts: 91169
Free Member
 

So he would be a 'software mechanic' then?

Dunno, maybe.

Sorry, it's too easy

It would be if it wasn't so transparent. You're clearly not a Trolling Engineer 🙂


 
Posted : 17/06/2011 4:22 pm
Posts: 0
Free Member
 

My last job title was Sales Engineer. How does that work then?


 
Posted : 17/06/2011 4:22 pm
Posts: 0
Free Member
 

My last job title was Sales Engineer. How does that work then?

When you sell your soul to "sales", Satan can call you what he likes!! 😉


 
Posted : 17/06/2011 4:25 pm
Posts: 91169
Free Member
 

Depends how much scheming and manipulation you had to do 🙂


 
Posted : 17/06/2011 4:26 pm
Posts: 0
Free Member
 

My last job title was Sales Engineer. How does that work then?

Simple that one

You sell the customer what they want regardless of whether it's possible or even exists.


 
Posted : 17/06/2011 4:26 pm
Posts: 0
Free Member
 

You sell the customer what they want regardless of whether it's possible or even exists

Jebus, that's so true..... 😆


 
Posted : 17/06/2011 4:27 pm
Posts: 0
Free Member
 

😆


 
Posted : 17/06/2011 4:28 pm
Posts: 0
 

Here's a genuine question to Pete.

If you take the example of a Typhoon fighter jet. The design of the jet is aerodynamically unstable whereby a pilot would not be able to control the plane with conventional hydraulically actuated controls.

It needs alot of software code to keep the thing in the air, so the machine has lots of carefully designed moving parts working in conjunction with lots of carefully designed software. Both of which were not designed and built in isolation of one another. They are were both designed in conjunction, so the software code becomes a component of the machine.

So the question is where does the "real engineering" start and end for such a machine?


 
Posted : 17/06/2011 4:29 pm
Page 2 / 4