[Closed] "I am a practising member of the Church of England and so forth"

I'm mostly intrigued by the "and so forth".

and so forth

It normally means "I let bigotry and racism rule my decisions..."

It's a misprint, it's actually an instruction to the residents of this forum "and so froth..."

Weird how people need to think there's a 3rd party telling them what's right or wrong. How do intelligent people not realise it's all in their head?!

How do intelligent people not realise it's all in their head?!

The two are normally mutually exclusive in my experience.

..and we're off!

Having a Faith or Belief in something is admirable.

Using that as a foil for your Nastyness and Bigotry means you are absolving responsibility for Your Own Actions, thats not admirable and underpins her attitude of superiority.

She has a nice taste in Shoes does Mrs May, quite a collection.

bikebouy

Having a Faith or Belief in [s]something[/s] science or logic is admirable.

 

They thought the same thing doing the crusade's years ago, 'in the name of god'

Having a Faith or Belief in something science or logic is admirable

Again mutually exclusive, the whole point of science is that it's not underpinned by faith but continually challenged and tested, with evidence deciding the outcome.

Err Jim Jam, you might want to have a little think about that one

They thought the same thing doing the crusade's years ago, 'in the name of god'

Yep, Tony 'the messiah Blair' and the Iraq war....

It's a sad change in society that being openly religious is now socially acceptable.

I love religion threads,its not like you get the same old fruitloops going around in circles at all,the thread is always zazzy.

Wow, things must be getting desperate if she is invoking faith already.

I suppose it's [i]slightly[/i] better than starting a new war to secure your premiership though.

Arrrgh - this is my freedom / financial security / safety* that she is absolving to her belief in the sky fairy here. It's just totally unacceptable to be talking like this! 😡

Rachel

*safety because I'm seriously worried much of the protections I enjoy being LGBT (various combinations of which) might well be lost when not pushed by such things as the EU Commission. I seriously worry we will go back to something like 2016 USA...

I suppose it's slightly better than starting a new war to secure your premiership though.

Give her time, when it all goes tits up, she may well yet declare war with the EU....

Eh, you're surprised that the daughter of a Vicar is open about her faith! 😯

GrahamS - Member
Wow, things must be getting desperate if she is invoking faith already.

Would be my impression.

As for belief in a higher being, who cares, about 70% of the planet do. Get over it. Science can't actually disprove it, so the "scientists" are up shit creek there. The absence of evidence isn't proof one way or the other. In fact, you could argue that belief in god is simply the filling of the void of not understanding the mystery's of the universe, and there seems to be an inherent need for humans to fill this lack of knowledge with something.

So until you can answer what came before the big bang, if there was a big bang, multiverse theories and what not, well, you're just going to have to live with religion/god as you don't really have an argument, could well be a god at the end of these questions.

FWIW, I'm not a believer.

There was a short flirtation with the idea of evidence-based policy making in government a couple of years back but political beliefs (and to a great extent politics) are a lot closer to faith than science.

I'll think it through, have a gut instinct, look at the evidence, work through the arguments, because you have to think through the unintended consequences

We've been down this road before. Don't worry though. Last time it all went ok though, and everything turned out really well, so I doubt this time will be any different

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Eh, you're surprised that the daughter of a Vicar is open about her faith!

[i] It's just totally unacceptable to be talking like this![/i]

It really should be, shouldn't it.

fillion's a practising catholic, hates gays n everything

i think its time to get all nationalist again

[img] [/img]

5thElefant - Member
It's a sad change in society that being openly religious is now socially acceptable.

Change in society? Are you discounting history? 😆

Eh, you're surprised that the daughter of a Vicar is open about her faith!

Unable/unwilling to rebel against her parents as a teenager and stick with it is the real shocker.

Change in society? Are you discounting history before 1990?

Something went horribly wrong after that.

I couldn't pick an actual date convincingly there as religion is so pervasive thoughout history, so I edited.

30/40 odd years though. religious belief was/is largely the default.

Are you discounting history?

A new twist on "Black Friday"?

Given that the PM seems to be indifferent at best to the less well off and disabled, not to mention the draconian internet surveillance legislation, I would be prepared to wager that Theresa May has a different definition of God than most religiously observant people.

All the same, I'd far rather have a politician steeped in humanism than one who defers all personal responsibility to a magical sky fairy.

Again mutually exclusive, the whole point of science is that it's not underpinned by faith but continually challenged and tested, with evidence deciding the outcome.

You're so wrong.

Dark energy and dark matter are both examples of scientific theories that are believed based on the compelling but still inconclusive evidence.

Therefore science still needs an element of 'faith' in order to operate. Scientists choose to believe in these theories becuase they make sense epistemologically, not because they are proven.

Indeed, from a purely philosophical and epistemological perspective, that which is held up to be ‘scientific’ is only valid as such if it can be falsified in some way. Therefore, it can never be proven true in all instances and beyond question. Therefore, that which is scientific needs a huge element of faith in order to operate.

Read Karl Popper 'All Life is Problem Solving' and then come back to the debate.

Nico - Member
Are you discounting history?
A new twist on "Black Friday"?

😆

Oh, and 3 pages by which we'll all have given up Hope.

You're so wrong.

You don't seem to understand the scientific method though. Just because there are unknown unknowns, doesn't mean science if faith based, it just means there are still untested hypothesis.

Read the complete works of Richard Dawkins and then come back to the debate.

footflaps - Member
You're so wrong.
You don't seem to understand the scientific method though. Just because there are unknown unknowns, doesn't mean science if faith based, it just means there are still untested hypothesis.

Given that the PM seems to be indifferent at best to the less well off and disabled, not to mention the draconian internet surveillance legislation, I would be prepared to wager that Theresa May has a different definition of God than most religiously observant people.

Not really. Some of the smallest-minded, most mean-spirited and unpleasant people I've ever met profess themselves to be devout christians

Like God?

Do we need to talk about celestial teapots?

Anyway, it would seem that religious fundamentalism (i.e, May doing what God tells her to do) is only a problem when it's Islamic.

8 pages?

binners - Member
Some of the most open-minded, most good-spirited and pleasant people I've ever met profess themselves to be devout christians

Since we're talking in wide brush strokes, I've presented another view above.

The 'scientific method' is an epistemology - It's a way of knowing something, discerning validity, and practicing that knowledge.

It's not a belief system.

'Believing in science' means you're a moron at best and a psychopath at worst.

ransos - Member
Like God?
Do we need to talk about celestial teapots?

Anyway, it would seem that religious fundamentalism (i.e, May doing what God tells her to do) is only a problem when it's Islamic.

I'm just pointing out why these threads go in circles, God can't be disproven or proven, and people try one way or the other to convince people of the impossible.

May is not a religious fundamentalist, imo.

And God telling anyone what to do isn't an issue either, people are responsible for their own actions, I don't care who they blame it on. (In christian circles, even god tells ye that it's your responsibility, you know the free will patter.)

Since we're talking in wide brush strokes, I've presented another view above.

I'm not saying they all christians are small-minded and mean-spirited. Just some. Same as with any other section of society. I'm just saying that assuming a belief in god indicates any kind of adherence to actual christian values, as allegedly decreed by the beardy one (God, not Jeremy Corbyn) is like saying that all ginger people are inherently nicer, or that everyone called Colin is a ****!

Rather than get into another pointless "Religion bad, science good" debate - wouldn't it be more interesting to discuss [i]why[/i] the PM feels the need to assert her faith and her apparent belief that she is doing God's work?

Much of the liberal left have become suspicious and sniffy about religion (as demonstrated here).
Does that push the authoritarian right towards greater religious dogma and justification?

To quote a suitably swivel-eyed commenter [url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/donald-trump/page/79#post-8105841 ]that I noted on Breitbart recently[/url]:

[i]"To me, the further "right" we get, the closer to Christ and that's a good thing"[/i]

😯

God can't be disproven or proven

binners - Member
Since we're talking in wide brush strokes, I've presented another view above.
I'm not saying they all christians are small-minded and mean-spirited. Just some. Same as with any other section of society. I'm just saying that assuming a belief in god indicates any kind of adherence to actual christian values, as allegedly decreed by the beardy one (God, not Jeremy Corbyn) is like saying that all ginger people are inherently nicer, or that everyone called Colin is a ****!

See above, in christian cicrles (I don't know if other religions have the same concept), free will places the blame directly on the individual and exempts god from jail time! 😆

I'm just pointing out why these threads go in circles, God can't be disproven or proven, and people try one way or the other to convince people of the impossible.

May is not a religious fundamentalist, imo.

Someone doing stuff because "God told them to" pretty much meets the definition IMO. People would certainly be quick to apply it to a middle eastern leader saying the same.

5thElefant - Member
God can't be disproven or proven

Much like unicorns and the tooth fairy.

I'm not disagreeing, but the simple fact is you can't disprove them, particularly to believers. So discussion of whether they actually exist or not isn't really worth discussing. You're as well focusing energy on other points of discussion that will lead people to come to their own conclusions, rather going for the full on attack of, your god doesn't exist and you're a fool!

I'm not disagreeing, but the simple fact is you can't disprove them, so discussion of whether they actually exist or not isn't really worth discussing.

Plus the tricky problem of proving a negative...

I'm not disagreeing, but the simple fact is you can't disprove them, particularly to believers. So discussion of whether they actually exist or not isn't really worth discussing.

ransos - Member
Someone doing stuff because "God told them to" pretty much meets the definition IMO. People would certainly be quick to apply it to a middle eastern leader saying the same.

May isn't incapable of that, imo.

You're all fools,being sidetracked by religion while the lizards in their subterranean caves get one step closer,and its not a YMCA tribute act they are forming!! Wake up fools!!! (oh and has anyone a pair of small kneepads they want to get rid of,see my wanted ad,thanks awfully.Any way as you were,religion boo, yay,i'm right,no i'm right etc.

If you [b]know[/b] you are…

Anyone who says they [b]know[/b] anything scares me. It's how people deal with unknowables that measures their greatness.

If they try to reduce everything to the known/knowable, you know they have no greatness whatsoever.

IMO.

Depends if they are incapable of applying logic and tempering their instructions with free will and some critical thought.

May isn't incapable of that, imo.

If you do something because God tells you to, then it's very difficult to see how critical thought has entered the equation.

8 pages?

Double figures I reckon.

God can't be disproven or proven
Much like unicorns and the tooth fairy.

That's not true though, is it. It's impossible to disprove, but theoretically at least you can readily prove all of those things. We just haven't managed it yet.

you can make some assumptions about people who believe in unicorns.

Unicorns do exist; they're fat and grey and we call them rhinos.

Ah well.. I tried. Have fun.

[i]*ducks out*[/i]

God loves a trier.

Seeing as you asked though,

wouldn't it be more interesting to discuss why the PM feels the need to assert her faith and her apparent belief that she is doing God's work?

I'd hazard there's two things going on here. First is the generic propensity for believers to talk about their beliefs and use it as a reason / excuse for doing what they're doing, be that good or bad. But moreover it's just another political spin, an attempt to get people on her side.

Unicorns do exist; they're fat and grey and we call them rhinos.

I'd have thought Narwhals would be their closest descendant! 😆

[img] ?1387482058[/img]

[img] [/img]

Disruptive video attack!

Read the complete works of Richard Dawkins and then come back to the debate.

I have. And pretty much everything by Paul Davies and John Gribbin as well as many other books on our understanding of the universe.

I didn't say that science was faith based. Just that there are elements of faith in it.

The key difference between faith as used by religion and science is that science uses faith to establish current wisdom only in the absence of falsifying evidence whereas religion does the same thing.

wouldn't it be more interesting to discuss why the PM feels the need to assert her faith and her apparent belief that she is doing God's work?

I'd say it's interesting that someone who is presiding over worsening conditions for the elderly, poor and the sick can claim to be Christian.

Faith or peer review?

If you do something because God tells you to, then it's very difficult to see how critical thought has entered the equation.

“I suppose there is something in terms of faith.

“I am a practising member of the Church of England and so forth, that lies behind what I do.

“It's not like I've decided to do what I'm going to do and I'm stubborn. [b]I'll think it through,[/b] have a gut instinct[b], look at the evidence,[/b] work through the arguments, because you have to think through the unintended consequences.”

In defence of May, there's what she said. Quite a bit away from a religious fundamentalist imo.

Btw, I feel the need to also clear up that I am not a believer in the tories either! 😆

I have. And pretty much everything by Paul Davies and John Gribbin as well as many other books on our understanding of the universe.

Its actually magic? This is god...

[img] [/img]

In defence of May, there's what she said. Quite a bit away from a religious fundamentalist imo.

Faith, gut-instinct and a review of the evidence are not really compatible.

ransos - Member
In defence of May, there's what she said. Quite a bit away from a religious fundamentalist imo.
Faith, gut-instinct and a review of the evidence are not really compatible.

Depends on how people use their faith. Not everyone will use it in the way you imply.

People are welcome to have faith but the guidance part is loopy. Her argument is the same as a member of ISIS , why Catholics in many places still treat abortions the way they do and why a place like Russia treats homosexuals brutually.

We don't need religion to guide us ethically and morally.

edenvalleyboy - Member
Her argument is the same as a member of ISIS

All the evidence we have is in a few quotes from the OP. And it really doesn't stack up to that conclusion.

You're using your own belief system to come up with that answer.

Depends on how people use their faith. Not everyone will use it in the way you imply.

That's true - not everyone is a fundamentalist.

I wonder how the media would take it if she'd said "I am a practising member of Islam" or "I am a practising member of the Church of the Latter Day Saints" or "I am a practising member of the Church of Scientology"?

...or "I think it's all poppycock"

Don't you lot get bored of posting the same shite over and over again?

May's faith is of no significance here. If she started making policies directly based on scripture then yeah, it would. But saying 'I talked to god and he agreed it was a good idea to put billboards on lorries telling immigrants to go home' is no different to simply having thought of it yourself.

In other words, it's just how she visualises her decision making process, I doubt it affects the conclusions. If Christianity really did affect her politics as suggested above then she'd not be quite such a nasty Tory...

“I am a practising member of the Church of England and so forth, that lies behind what I do."

Oh not this again... Did we not have enough of this last time with Blair-Bush?

"wouldn't it be more interesting to discuss why the PM feels the need to assert her faith and her apparent belief that she is doing God's work?

I'd hazard there's two things going on here. First is the generic propensity for believers to talk about their beliefs and use it as a reason / excuse for doing what they're doing, be that good or bad. But moreover it's just another political spin, an attempt to get people on her side."

Agreed.

If Christianity really did affect her politics as suggested above then she'd not be quite such a nasty Tory...

This is part of the issue. People's twisted view of scripture makes them believe their stupid, selfish, often intolerant and persecutive (Is that a word? If not, I have invented it.) actions are morally right and justified. Shame they don't apply their religious-based action approach when it comes to money lenders, being a good samaritan or turning the other cheek... Seems just a bit selectively applied.

If Christianity really did affect her politics as suggested above then she'd not be quite such a nasty Tory...

That was my thinking: if I were a Christian, I'd be distancing myself from her actions.

Yesterday, I visited a Quaker meeting house, a Roman Catholic church, a Methodist chapel, a mosque, an Anglican church, a Sikh gurdwara, and a Buddhist centre. At all of these places, the message given was of peace, tolerance and love.

Theresa May's actions, and the policies of Conservative governments, seem to be rather at odds with everything I heard yesterday.

Yesterday, I visited a Quaker meeting house, a Roman Catholic church, a Methodist chapel, a mosque, an Anglican church, a Sikh gurdwara, and a Buddhist centre. At all of these places, the message given was of peace, tolerance and love.

STW intolerance at it's worst

Yesterday, I visited a Quaker meeting house, a Roman Catholic church, a Methodist chapel, a mosque, an Anglican church, a Sikh gurdwara, and a Buddhist centre.